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  What? Your game isn't a pixelated retro masterpiece?  (Read 4870 times)
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Offline AcidFaucet

Senior Newbie


Medals: 1



« Reply #30 - Posted 2014-07-19 04:08:12 »


There's plenty of good looking games out there with 2 pixel wide characters and 1 pixel legs. You sound kinda elitist. I actually take offense that you think "1 pixel wide legs" is a trademark for lazy work. Considering this project right here.

Don't tell me those 2px wide, 7px tall characters with 2x1 pixel legs "ruin" the game, it all depends on the reasoning behind it.

*grumbles and wanders off*  Roll Eyes

Personally, nope not for me, but that's me. Total oops, I was actively trying to avoid sounding elitist - but I clearly let my occupational superiority slip through (PHA/LOPA/FMEA/SRS/SIL ... etc)

I'd be more impressed with garbage but creatively rendered 3d (kuwahara filter maybe) models animated via IK (similar to "Die By the Sword"), given how completely cake IK is (SIL2 is about 1200 matrix mults), that's not a tall order.

Quote
and then give it to them for free to use instead. If you can't do that, then you don't have the right to (unconstructively) criticise, because you're admitting yourself that you can't do what they'd have to do.

No. One does not exert effort and give it for free. If they write a check, then certainly. I also have other plans.

There is no "unconstructive" in this debate. It is a debate of taste and taste is subjective. The mean may be to parade the merit of garbage single pixel wide legs, but I choose to be the devil in this.

Please, keep ripping into me. I'm prepping to do LD#1-#30 alone back to back without any break in a 60 day spree, because I have vacation time I need to use and it happens to be 70 days.
Offline HeroesGraveDev

JGO Kernel


Medals: 254
Projects: 11
Exp: 2 years


┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


« Reply #31 - Posted 2014-07-19 05:10:07 »

Quote
and then give it to them for free to use instead. If you can't do that, then you don't have the right to (unconstructively) criticise, because you're admitting yourself that you can't do what they'd have to do.
No. One does not exert effort and give it for free. If they write a check, then certainly. I also have other plans.

So do the developers. They don't have time to do all the extra work of making more complex art for no benefit do they?

What makes your time more important than theirs?

Offline AcidFaucet

Senior Newbie


Medals: 1



« Reply #32 - Posted 2014-07-19 05:24:08 »

Quote
So do the developers. They don't have time to do all the extra work of making more complex art for no benefit do they?

What makes your time more important than theirs?

Simple. My hourly rate versus theirs.

I'm not planning to do an LD1-30 back to back for nothing. I know there's massive monetary gain for me in doing such. In fact, if I can manage even just 6 back to back, that makes me better than you by a massive longshot.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline HeroesGraveDev

JGO Kernel


Medals: 254
Projects: 11
Exp: 2 years


┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


« Reply #33 - Posted 2014-07-19 05:35:06 »

Quote
What makes your time more important than theirs?

Simple. My hourly rate versus theirs.
???

Quote
I'm not planning to do an LD1-30 back to back for nothing. I know there's massive monetary gain for me in doing such.
???

Quote
In fact, if I can manage even just 6 back to back, that makes me better than you by a massive longshot.
???

I am lost. Can you please explain those 3 statements, and what relevance they have to this discussion?

Offline seth21

Senior Newbie


Medals: 1



« Reply #34 - Posted 2014-07-19 07:27:20 »

I think it is an awesome way of seriously increasing your chances of actually finishing that small project of yours. Especially for games that quantity matters. Isn't everyone talking about this? As a primarily gameplay and not graphics guy I don't really care, it's not stunning but it doesn't feel wrong either.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 165
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #35 - Posted 2014-07-19 07:42:35 »

Quote
Finally, if you want to (unconstructively) criticise someone's art for their game, first make art that's better then theirs, and then give it to them for free to use instead. If you can't do that, then you don't have the right to (unconstructively) criticise, because you're admitting yourself that you can't do what they'd have to do.

This makes no sense what so ever. Welcome to the internet, criticism is rife (be it unconstructive or not), it's up the receiver to filter the bits they can use and make use of it. Thats the release early, release often mindset, customer feedback (good or bad) absolutely as soon as possible.

I have a feeling AcidFaucet is working, which means they're paid for their time, which in turn means the idea of building art then giving it away for free just because you passed critique is totally non-sensical.

Would you really want anyone that couldn't write a better game than you stopping giving you feedback - you'd lose so much!

More interested on the cause of the upsurge in pixel art games, which I've had some great answers to already!

Cheers,

Kev

Offline PandaMoniumHUN

JGO Coder


Medals: 32
Exp: 3 years


White-bearded OGL wizard


« Reply #36 - Posted 2014-07-19 07:52:10 »

Should also be noted I disagree with the notion that pixel art is the "easy way out". In a lot of cases, I've found good pixel art even more challenging than my cartoony work. Cheesy
'Good' pixel art is easy to make in the terms of art, where 1 or 2 years of learning is considered a short time.
Go to DeviantArt, pick a few nice pieces and ask their drawers how long they've been drawing. I'm pretty sure 90% of the answers will be above 10 years. Pointing
And then there's 3D modeling which was barely mentioned in the topic. It takes just as much skill as drawing + teamwork, because apparently someone who's good at modeling might not be great at lighting, or animation, texturing, etc.

My Blog | Jumpbutton Studio - INOP Programmer
Can't stress enough: Don't start game development until you haven't got the basics of programming down! Pointing
Online Rayvolution

JGO Kernel


Medals: 207
Projects: 2
Exp: 1 year


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #37 - Posted 2014-07-19 12:59:12 »

Quote
So do the developers. They don't have time to do all the extra work of making more complex art for no benefit do they?

What makes your time more important than theirs?

Simple. My hourly rate versus theirs.

I'm not planning to do an LD1-30 back to back for nothing. I know there's massive monetary gain for me in doing such. In fact, if I can manage even just 6 back to back, that makes me better than you by a massive longshot.

Your elitist is showing. Seriously, you've just lost all credibility. I don't care who you are, what you know, or how much you're paid. You're simply arrogant and your opinions are invalidated by your pigheadedness. At least I can feel better about my "lazy and incompetent" project and it's 1 pixel wide legs now. :/

Regardless if you're flat-out lying because you're actually a troll, or you're telling the truth about yourself, either way makes me have a distaste for you. So this will be the last time I bother communicating with you in this thread.

Good luck on JGO.


- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 800
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #38 - Posted 2014-07-19 13:40:33 »

Can't we all just get along? AcidFaucet made 3 posts, all confrontational and indicative of a larger than life ego. This can only lead to a lot of back and forth about what was said, and how things should be interpreted.

If there is anything I learned in recent years, it's that bickering is exceptionally damaging, regardless of who's started it, or who's right. AcidFaucet has been escorted to the padded room (no medals, no post editing, for 2 weeks) - consider this a first and last warning.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline ctomni231

JGO Wizard


Medals: 99
Projects: 1
Exp: 7 years


Not a glitch. Just have a lil' pixelexia...


« Reply #39 - Posted 2014-07-21 01:28:07 »

I really don't have a problem with pixel art. Anyone who grew up in playing SNES, SEGA, ATARI, or anything in the arcades, pixel art is what we grew up with. I can safely pin down three reasons for the uprising of pixel art.

All Grown Up

A lot of the people making these games grew up on pixel graphics. It is a little bit more than nostalgia as these graphics actually resemble what I'd try to draw in my head as a kid, but didn't have the skills. There is an imaginative, colorful innocence that these graphics give that can take very violent topics and make them cute and palatable. With the majority of this generation in the work force, these type of games are certainly on the rise.

No artist, no problem

One of the biggest factors is that art, even from amateur artists, is very expensive to get. Many of my friends who are artists think signing up for indie is a huge waste of time with no bottom line. Plenty of artists already have to pull a second job to keep art alive, and indie developers just don't give a lot of upfront cash for a workload that is 2x what the industry would give. So there is a huge rift between artists and developers because let's face it, having no cash is something both have in common. Pixel art is easier to draw, less work load, and you can bypass having to pay a good artist and still have good looking art. Win win win win situation.

The Nostalgia

The big problem about big budget has to be the significant focus on graphics. Pixelated graphics have an art quality to it where you are not limited by the power of your engine, but by what you create with it. In other words, these graphics transcend all programming languages ( Java, C++, Python) and platforms (PC, SNES, PS, Xbox). A good pixel art game is always going to be the same experience, regardless of platform.

It is very powerful, because your games get compared to early games like Mario, Sonic, Space Invaders. Just like artists today would be compared to past artists. A normalized canvas for game making means that your game REALLY has to be good and can't ride off of pretty technology to be noticed.

Anyway, 2d hits my imagine space better than 3d. In 2d, I know it isn't real, so I imagine myself in the role and experience it. In 3d, especially in later titles, I feel more like the game is deciding for me what I should do next. Sometimes to the point of me just wishing I was sitting and watching it in a movie theater. Doesn't help at all that it is easier to get lost and objectives got more complicated over time... Pointing

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Online Grunnt

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 8
Exp: 5 years


Complex != complicated


« Reply #40 - Posted 2014-07-21 07:36:53 »

The nice thing about pixel art for me (as in intentionally low-pixel-count graphics) is that it helps a lot in the suspension of disbelief. Higher pixel counts or higher poly counts do not correlate positively with more immersion.

With regards to immersion, there's two approaches that I see that work really well:
- go all-out with a 100M+ budget on ultra-realistic 3D graphics and animation a la Call of Duty series (immersion because you are fooled into thinking it is real)
- make it completely unrealistic using a consistent cartoonish style, pixel art or similar approach (immersion because its easy to suspend disbelief)

Using pixel counts or poly counts as a means to determine how well a game looks graphically is such a "technical" way of looking at things... Realism is boring, immersion is what counts for games.

Edit: using pixel art or other unrealistic graphics also means you stimulate the player's creativity. The human mind is such a wonderful thing, why not understand how it works and use this in game development?

Offline Sabomoth

Junior Member


Medals: 1
Exp: 2 years



« Reply #41 - Posted 2014-07-21 10:10:44 »

I think you are all missing the point. All you think of is when the pixel art succeeds in delivering a positive picture of the game world. That is hardy the case in every game with pixel graphics. When the 'artists' try to use as few pixels as possible, as opposed to as getting as much detail as possible into few pixels, then the result will be crap. The art style also have to fit the game. Sure, its all about nostalgia, looking retro, etc etc, but when most fail at this it's just a big bore and lets me think that i shouldnt even bother spending time looking at the fiftyeleven different pixelgames released.
Online Grunnt

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 8
Exp: 5 years


Complex != complicated


« Reply #42 - Posted 2014-07-21 11:08:19 »

Thank you for your nuanced contribution Tongue

Offline Drenius
« Reply #43 - Posted 2014-07-21 15:23:01 »

In the end, everything is about taste, and you know, there's no accounting for taste.
Offline AcidFaucet

Senior Newbie


Medals: 1



« Reply #44 - Posted 2014-08-04 05:12:39 »

Quote
What makes your time more important than theirs?

Simple. My hourly rate versus theirs.
Huh

Quote
I'm not planning to do an LD1-30 back to back for nothing. I know there's massive monetary gain for me in doing such.
Huh

Quote
In fact, if I can manage even just 6 back to back, that makes me better than you by a massive longshot.
Huh

I am lost. Can you please explain those 3 statements, and what relevance they have to this discussion?


You're pretty retarded.
#1 Obviously, if my rate is 5 times theirs I'm worth more. Hence, their work isn't worth shit.
To #2 there's massive gain to doing a youtube serial of LD.
To #3 - LD is hard in a single case, doing LD back to back is hard * 6.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 800
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #45 - Posted 2014-08-04 05:16:58 »

Quoting myself:
Can't we all just get along? AcidFaucet made 3 posts, all confrontational and indicative of a larger than life ego. This can only lead to a lot of back and forth about what was said, and how things should be interpreted.

If there is anything I learned in recent years, it's that bickering is exceptionally damaging, regardless of who's started it, or who's right. AcidFaucet has been escorted to the padded room (no medals, no post editing, for 2 weeks) - consider this a first and last warning.

AcidFaucet has been banned, forever. We can do without the arrogance and hostile attitude.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
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