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  What do you think about religion and opressing gay rights?  (Read 2029 times)
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Offline Troubleshoots

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:28:59 »

Religion is the partly successful manipulation of people, the partly successful suppressor of freedom, the partly successful blocker of innovation, the partly successful cause of war, the partly successful breakdown of peace, the partly successful controller of the mind. Religion is a hypocrite. Religion is a successful dictatorship. If religion didn't exist,..

Think. Escape.

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Offline opiop65

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« Reply #31 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:40:00 »

I actually do agree Troubleshoots. I don't think that religion is terrible in itself, I think how people use religion is one of the main causes of the lack of innovation and thinking in this world. I just can't help but believe that hell exists solely to scare people into doing what God wants. It seems like a scam almost, do what I want and you'll live forever in Heaven, the ultimate paradise. Disobey me and go against my book and you're condemned to a life of eternal darkness. Seriously, what the f**k. No one deserves that except maybe the worst criminals in this world who kill millions. I refuse to believe that a God would let this happen, if there is such a spirit.

Offline HeroesGraveDev

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:40:13 »

(I really don't know, I've barely looked at the Bible)

The bible is an... interesting piece of work, it states things like "If you disobey me, I will make you eat your sons and daughters" as well as "If you love your family more than me, you are not worthy of me" and "If you curse at your parents, you should be put to death". In regards to homosexuality the bible is clearly against it "In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

All in all, it's a funny book Smiley

... When taken out of context, just like any other book. Everything in there has a place, it's just that lots of it was for a time long past.

What if I said you cannot marry a woman or have any sort of relations with her?

Goodbye humankind. Wink

Quote
Can I ask why you don't agree with homosexuality?

I would answer, but you wouldn't understand where I was coming from. What one thinks of homosexual marriage depends on what one thinks of marriage in the first place. And what one thinks of marriage depends on a whole chain of other things leading back to your worldview.

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Offline BurntPizza
« Reply #33 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:41:49 »

I'm somewhat of a similar opinion to Trouble; if you were to ask me what my religion is, I would say "I don't follow any religion." Had enough of it from the rest of my family, used to go to church, etc, but it just felt like a complete waste of time, plus then you constantly have people saying you are obviously a bad person if you <insert checklist>. Religion can be stabilizing, but too often it is forced upon people, interpreted wrongly (which, again is entirely subjective in itself), and quite often people just straight-up miss the point. While there have been many acts of goodness inspired by religious ideas, there are just as many atrocities committed in the name of <insert deity of choice>; ever heard of the Crusades? Besides, it is almost perversely humorous how similar different opposing religions are when you break them down, yet they despise each other.
Offline matheus23

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:50:24 »

Marriage is a religious concept, and if the religion says it should be between a man and a woman, it's not the government's place to force someone to marry a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

The problem is that, today, marriage is decoupled (pun intended! Tongue ) from religion. People who are non-religous marry, because they need the rights that come with marriage. Those rights include how they are allowed share money in a bank account and property in general. It also includes things like the right to adopt children, and then the question whether gay marriage should be allowed becomes: should gay couples be allowed to adopt children?

Today, marriage is not a concept of religion, it's a concept of our political states and countries. It's not symbolic anymore. It gives citizens rights they wouldn't have otherwise.

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Offline HeroesGraveDev

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:52:28 »

In response to the other posts about whether religion is a good idea or not, I have this to say:

Although I am not sure about other religions, I know that the on of the two main 'commands' of Chrisianity is to "love one another as you do yourselves".
My question to you is this:

Have any of the people who influenced your view of Christianity (or any religion) shown that to be true of their actions?

Not saying that those who don't aren't really Christians. Just that they may have missed a (very important) point. I have even been yelled at by people in the streets that I am going to hell. Which is actually kind of funny. I have also seen/heard of people who just show kindness to others and help them out. Who do you think is a better picture of a Christian? And who do you think is the more common one?

@matheus23: I think actually the opposite. I think that marriage has become too linked to lots of laws, to the point where it starts losing it's meaning as a religious concept. However, the result is the same.

Offline matheus23

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« Reply #36 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:56:56 »

@matheus23: I think actually the opposite. I think that marriage has become too linked to lots of laws, to the point where it starts losing it's meaning as a religious concept. However, the result is the same.

I don't get why this should be the opposite, that's exactly what I'm thinking! Smiley

I didn't write anything about how it happened, but I wrote about the 'result'.

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Offline saucymeatman
« Reply #37 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:58:14 »

Straight guys cant marry straight guys any more than a gay guy could marry a gay guy.
Gay guys still have the right to marry, they are inclined not to because of there sexuality.

So is the debate really about discrimination?

In any case, I dont think anyone here would discriminate against anyone for their sexuality.
Offline opiop65

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« Reply #38 - Posted 2014-02-22 21:59:56 »

Unfortunately the most common is the latter. That is exactly why I cannot stand religion, people use it to take advantage of others when they have no right. I do not have a problem with religion as long as you do not use it to your advantage.

matheus, I would really like to believe that isn't true. I want to believe that two people want to get married because they want a commitment. Too much of this world is centered around business and politics already, I'm (in my short time on this Earth) am already sick of it. Living in this world, I just get a feeling that everything is about money and power which really just sucks a whole ton. I wish I could live in a world where people were actually passionate about what they do (I know some of us are), and where people just loved each other instead of trying to take advantage of others.

Offline opiop65

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« Reply #39 - Posted 2014-02-22 22:03:38 »

Straight guys cant marry straight guys any more than a gay guy could marry a gay guy.
Gay guys still have the right to marry, they are inclined not to because of there sexuality.

So is the debate really about discrimination?

In any case, I dont think anyone here would discriminate against anyone for their sexuality.
umm where have you been for the past couple of years? It isn't legal in most states for gays to marry. This is discrimination because the law says they cannot, not because of social pressure. I would like to know what you are talking about because that was just one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in regards to homosexuality and the laws surrounding it.

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Offline BurntPizza
« Reply #40 - Posted 2014-02-22 22:04:00 »

I wish I could live in a world where people were actually passionate about what they do (I know some of us are), and where people just loved each other instead of trying to take advantage of others.

Well make that game already!
Offline matheus23

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« Reply #41 - Posted 2014-02-22 22:07:17 »

matheus, I would really like to believe that isn't true. I want to believe that two people want to get married because they want a commitment. Too much of this world is centered around business and politics already, I'm (in my short time on this Earth) am already sick of it. Living in this world, I just get a feeling that everything is about money and power which really just sucks a whole ton. I wish I could live in a world where people were actually passionate about what they do (I know some of us are), and where people just loved each other instead of trying to take advantage of others.

YES! (Parts of) what you're talking about is capitalism. Not that it's a bad thing from the ground up, but even oxygen can be toxic in too high doses. Smiley

In other words: I know that feel, bro Tongue

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Offline Troubleshoots

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Damn maths.


« Reply #42 - Posted 2014-02-22 22:09:36 »

In response to the other posts about whether religion is a good idea or not, I have this to say:

Although I am not sure about other religions, I know that the on of the two main 'commands' of Chrisianity is to "love one another as you do yourselves".
My question to you is this:

Have any of the people who influenced your view of Christianity (or any religion) shown that to be true of their actions?

Not saying that those who don't aren't really Christians. Just that they may have missed a (very important) point. I have even been yelled at by people in the streets that I am going to hell. Which is actually kind of funny. I have also seen/heard of people who just show kindness to others and help them out. Who do you think is a better picture of a Christian? And who do you think is the more common one?

Instinct.
We don't need religion to tell us that we should be kind to one another.

Why are all OpenGL tutorials written in Brainf**k?
Offline Troubleshoots

JGO Knight


Medals: 36
Exp: 7-9 months


Damn maths.


« Reply #43 - Posted 2014-02-22 22:16:17 »

Marriage is a religious concept...

Prove it.

Why are all OpenGL tutorials written in Brainf**k?
Offline saucymeatman
« Reply #44 - Posted 2014-02-23 00:12:56 »

umm where have you been for the past couple of years?
New York.

It isn't legal in most states for gays to marry.
Never said it was.

This is discrimination because the law says they cannot, not because of social pressure.
No law, in any state prohibits a gay man from marrying. Marriage being defined as "the formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife.".
Laws in many states do however, prohibit a man from marrying a man, or  a woman from marrying a woman. But this is not sexuality specific.

My point was that the debate on gay marriage isnt about unfair laws that only apply to homosexuals. It is about changing the accepted definition of marriage.
Offline lcass
« Reply #45 - Posted 2014-02-23 00:40:14 »

Religion is the partly successful manipulation of people, the partly successful suppressor of freedom, the partly successful blocker of innovation, the partly successful cause of war, the partly successful breakdown of peace, the partly successful controller of the mind. Religion is a hypocrite. Religion is a successful dictatorship. If religion didn't exist,..

Think. Escape.
partly successful supression of innovation? the dark ages , if there was no religion we would be 200 years more advanced.
Offline BurntPizza
« Reply #46 - Posted 2014-02-23 00:47:18 »

...
partly successful supression of innovation? the dark ages , if there was no religion we would be 200 years more advanced.

The dark ages eventually ended, and there was enlightenment.
So it was only partly successful.

 :\
Offline Drenius
« Reply #47 - Posted 2014-02-23 01:35:10 »

Religion is just an older, more established version of a group, a movement etc. of people who want to increase something specific.
This means, people believe in its aims and think that everybody should, because it is good.
Unfortunally these people are those who believe they know what is right or wrong and because they are humans and humans mostly mistrust new ideas, people etc. first, they say it is evil and proscribe it.
Offline ctomni231

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« Reply #48 - Posted 2014-02-23 01:40:27 »

Well, ironically most of our morality system points right back to religion. Of all the systems out there, morality toward fellow human beings tends to create the most debate because of its roots in religion. Most laws and practices in terms of human rights has a lot to do with people's religious compass. Even if you don't necessarily believe, societies leave morale influences on all members.

One could argue that without religion that the world would be socially behind. Religion allows a certain measure of tolerance to be attained over time. Being able to reinterpret the Bible in many ways has allowed Christianity to push the boundaries of tolerance. The more people that try to live in a socially acceptable way, the better we are in the long run.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm disregarding the past. Christianity has had its fair share of holy wars, sexually discriminating against people, and even violating young children. Thanks to these actions, Christianity is going through a rebirth, or second Renaissance. Combined with the Internet, I believe that all individuals are becoming much more aware. The more people are aware, the better people will be tolerant and wipe out these notions of discrimination.

It is a process, but one that is shaping for a better world overtime. There is still a lot of old questionable practices still around, but as each new generation gains more knowledge, these practices will slowly be erased with time.

Offline Drenius
« Reply #49 - Posted 2014-02-23 01:49:27 »

@ctomni231: Well, there is a point where we need a definition what is Christianity and what is just calling itself as...
Everything a matter of definition... definition...
Offline Slyth2727
« Reply #50 - Posted 2014-02-23 01:55:05 »

Well I personally believe that religion used to be a way to give yourself hope in something, but now it has just become ridiculous. Honestly, why do something that a little book says to do for your entire life to get into some "Heaven" when you absolutely no proof whatsoever that any of it exists. It's like an internet meme in a way, nobody has a clue who's really leading it, but everybody does it. We haven't a clue if we benefit from it or not.

On the gay rights, I am all for it. Just because someone is attracted to a different gender than is common doesn't mean that they aren't people. Making it illegal is even worse than orally discriminating it, because this means that those people can't legally own a child together, or do many other things a married couple normally could. Marriage has evolved (or should I say devolved) from a signature to a necessary thing for a couple that wants to spend the rest of their life together.
I believe that most people shy away and discriminate gay people because they are scared. First, scared of not being normal, and after that, scared of being shunned by society. The first one gave the ball a shove, and now it's rolling down the neverending hill.

I found a great video on this a while back: What If Being Gay Was the Norm?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CnOJgDW0gPI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CnOJgDW0gPI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=</a>

Was I before Chuang Tzu who dreamt about being a butterfly, or am I now a butterfly who dreams about being Chuang Tzu?
Offline Roquen
« Reply #51 - Posted 2014-02-23 13:54:24 »

Religion is like end user software agreements:  Users scroll to the end without reading and click "I Agree".

It's too easy for doubter to non-believers to point their finger at all the world's woes and say religion is the cause.  And for believers to come to basically the same conclusion with the minor tweaks of people using religion for their own purposes and/or perverting proper beliefs.  And these are really easy arguments to make because religion even when not the direct cause is virtually always somewhere in the background.

If everyone stopped having religious believes a couple of thousand years ago, world history would be very different...but I don't it would have been much nicer.  Religion is the excuse...we would have just found a different one.  Using reductive pop psyche the real problem is self identity and notably mechanisms to improve our self worth.  The good side of this makes the best of us and the bad side brings out the worst.  As mentioned before religion is really nothing more than "some group" to join...like a terrorist cell or java programming forum.

if there was no religion we would be 200 years more advanced.
Probably way way more than that.  The base 10 number system only caught on in Europe in 15th century.  The destruction of scientific and mathematical books (well pretty much all human pursuits) was a major set back...certainly more than a couple of centuries.

Well, ironically most of our morality system points right back to religion.
To a certain extent that's true...but only because that's the way it's taught.  They weren't the first but chances are you've heard of  ancient Greek philosophy?  The famous ones predate the first codifications of Judaism (~300 B.C. if memory serves) .  Even older are the codes of Ur-Nammu and Hammurabi (harsh by today's standards).  Sadly Mesopotamia along with many older cultures liked to write on wax and clay tablets.  Talk about no forward vision.


Offline lcass
« Reply #52 - Posted 2014-02-23 22:21:25 »

Well I personally believe that religion used to be a way to give yourself hope in something, but now it has just become ridiculous. Honestly, why do something that a little book says to do for your entire life to get into some "Heaven" when you absolutely no proof whatsoever that any of it exists. It's like an internet meme in a way, nobody has a clue who's really leading it, but everybody does it. We haven't a clue if we benefit from it or not.

On the gay rights, I am all for it. Just because someone is attracted to a different gender than is common doesn't mean that they aren't people. Making it illegal is even worse than orally discriminating it, because this means that those people can't legally own a child together, or do many other things a married couple normally could. Marriage has evolved (or should I say devolved) from a signature to a necessary thing for a couple that wants to spend the rest of their life together.
I believe that most people shy away and discriminate gay people because they are scared. First, scared of not being normal, and after that, scared of being shunned by society. The first one gave the ball a shove, and now it's rolling down the neverending hill.

I found a great video on this a while back: What If Being Gay Was the Norm?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CnOJgDW0gPI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CnOJgDW0gPI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=</a>
I must say this is moving , amazing peice of work showing how it feels. You wouldnt like it if you were treated differently for something. And its such a shame its all due to a few small minded people manipulating others to believe what simply isnt true.
Offline Grunnt

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« Reply #53 - Posted 2014-02-24 12:15:29 »

Meh.

Pointing at "religion" as the cause makes you blind to the responsibility of the people doing things in the name of some religion. Religion can be a source of love and compassion, and a source of hate and distrust. What makes the difference? The person(s) who choose to interpret religion in one or the other way in a specific context. I know religious people who are fine with practicing gays, and I know religious people who are not. My conclusion: this has more to do with these people than their religion.

And the events in Uganda? Thats a clear case of where religion is used as a tool by those in power to control the masses. By directing the attention of the dumb masses towards gays and creating some imagined threat originating in gays they draw away the attention from their own corruption and -really- disgusting behaviour. Pointing at religion as an imagined threat is pretty much the same: the attention is drawn away from those responsible for misdeeds and towards some kind of abstract idea or an abstract group of people. The problem is not religion, communism or any other idiology, the problem is the dumb herd that is all too eager to hate and blame, whilst being blind to the responsibility of the people that do the herding.

Best description I have for those who do not recognize the fundamental human right of people to experience their sexuality and love life in the way they want, be it hetero, gay or bi, is dumb. Dumb for not knowing that being gay is not a choice. Dumb for not recognizing how cynical people in power use religion to manipulate them into denying other the rights that they themselves do enjoy. I dont really that people generally evil, just that sometimes they are really dumb and have never learned to think for themselves.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #54 - Posted 2014-02-24 12:45:43 »

Quote
...being gay is not a choice.
Or more importantly...even if it was:  THAT shouldn't make a difference either.
Offline Grunnt

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Complex != complicated


« Reply #55 - Posted 2014-02-24 13:44:20 »

Good point.

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