Java-Gaming.org Hi !
Featured games (91)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (799)
Games in Android Showcase (236)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (865)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
  ignore  |  Print  
  Virtual Reality  (Read 83543 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Posted 2016-03-23 06:24:45 »

With the GearVR released, Oculus Rift a week away from release, the HTC Vive coming coming the following week and PlayStation VR coming in October, I thought I'd post a general VR thread.

LWJGL currently supports Oculus' LibOVR, and jMonkeyEngine supports SteamVR.
Phr00t has led the charge with VR, having the first VR java games on Steam that support both the Rift and the Vive with Spermination, 4089 and 5089.

Who has, or is expecting to get a VR HMD in the near future?
Who is excited?

Offline Rayvolution

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 379
Projects: 2
Exp: 2 years


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #1 - Posted 2016-03-23 06:27:59 »

I have a Rift on the way (28th woot!), I have some ideas I've been tossing around for a hybrid "2D game in VR", but I'm not sure how it'll all pan out. But of course, I have a flagship product to focus on, so I'm not sure how much time I'll have to really dev with VR though.

Sucks too, because with VR being really new there's a lot of weird untapped (and easy to get into) markets to jump into, like hybrid "2.5d platformers" and other fun stuff that VR could make really interesting.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Now on Steam!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.hitbox.tv/rayvolution
Offline Phased
« Reply #2 - Posted 2016-03-23 06:28:45 »

May does not come fast enough for my HTC Vive shipment Sad

With Ray's post, one reason why I got it now, hopefully I may be able to jump into being a game developer with it being new.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Phased
« Reply #3 - Posted 2016-03-23 06:33:45 »

I also saw Spasi on github saying he would support SteamVR in LWJGL if there is enough demand for it.

I know I hope for SteamVR support. I hope to do my graphics course next semester with the vive, would be nice to be able to use LWJGL for the assignment, otherwise I will probably go to C++.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1126
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2016-03-23 09:56:34 »

Allow me to piss on everyone's chips but VR is going to be a massive flop - at least, in the gaming industry.

Let's guess some numbers.

Number of people willing to pay $x00 for a VR system (I'm assuming they get them to that sort of price)
Number of people who have a physical playing area around their PC actually big enough for VR experience
Number of people willing to don ridiculous headgear just to fire up some game or other
Number of game designs that would be good in VR... that's basically, er, FPSes, plus a few niche interests like "surgeon simulator" and so on*
Amount of money that needs to be spent on an FPS to compete with the latest AAA titles
Amount of extra money needed to make that title support VR adequately and meaningfully (remembering stringent performance requirements to avoid motion sickness and achieve suspension of disbelief)

Discuss the numbers and then tell me how VR is going to be in any way a success. Compare and contrast with 3D cinema. Or maybe even 3D TV for laughs. Pay special attention to previous stabs at 3D goggle tech such as Nvidia's shutter goggles.

Cas Smiley

* Feel free to call me out on this one but let's face it the AAA games industry is not renowned for its innovative risk taking in game design, is it?

Offline matt_p
« Reply #5 - Posted 2016-03-23 10:06:53 »

...
this  Pointing

Although I'm still kinda interested to try it out, but I won't buy one because of:
- money involved
- place needed
- I usually don't play games that much

On the long run it will end up like 3D movies (I wasn't that surprised when I heard that large companies, e.g. Philips, completely stop to integrate 3D in their TVs at all): I think this will end up in some niche markets, like arcades in cinemas and stuff like that - with all the VR gear combined (glasses, walking-pods, controllers) to get the best experience.

I recently found out that a small company that develops those walking-pods (even with sit-down mode for games like GTA if you switch to driving) is right next to where I live, which surprised me because I live in a kinda rural location in Austria Grin 
Offline Phased
« Reply #6 - Posted 2016-03-23 10:09:35 »

All major engines (Unreal Engine, Cryengine V (just released today I believe), Unity) already have support for both Rift and the Vive.

With those support, I guess at minimum, basic sit down VR will be more likely to be supported.
Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Reply #7 - Posted 2016-03-23 10:24:23 »

Allow me to piss on everyone's chips but VR is going to be a massive flop - at least, in the gaming industry.

Let's guess some numbers.

Number of people willing to pay $x00 for a VR system (I'm assuming they get them to that sort of price)
Number of people who have a physical playing area around their PC actually big enough for VR experience
Number of people willing to don ridiculous headgear just to fire up some game or other
Number of game designs that would be good in VR... that's basically, er, FPSes, plus a few niche interests like "surgeon simulator" and so on*
Amount of money that needs to be spent on an FPS to compete with the latest AAA titles
Amount of extra money needed to make that title support VR adequately and meaningfully (remembering stringent performance requirements to avoid motion sickness and achieve suspension of disbelief)

Discuss the numbers and then tell me how VR is going to be in any way a success. Compare and contrast with 3D cinema. Or maybe even 3D TV for laughs. Pay special attention to previous stabs at 3D goggle tech such as Nvidia's shutter goggles.

Cas Smiley

* Feel free to call me out on this one but let's face it the AAA games industry is not renowned for its innovative risk taking in game design, is it?

I don't think that we're going to see a large adaption of VR from AAA, at least in gen 1, but I don't think it's dead on arrival either. HTC, Oculus and Sony have all hinted that demand for VR is much higher than they anticipated (Sony delaying the PSVR due to needing to manufacture more units, Vive selling 15k units in first 10 minutes of preorders, Oculus' Palmer Luckey saying flat out that demand was much higher than they expected at launch).

They've pushed a lot units already, so the only thing that would kill VR would be it going the way of MS' Kinect, not having enough software. However, looking at steam, there are already 60+ games that support VR that are released or scheduled for release.

Number of game designs that would be good in VR... that's basically, er, FPSes, plus a few niche interests like "surgeon simulator" and so on*

I'm sorry, but this is really not true. The idea that VR is limited to FPSes is rubbish. For example, one of the bundled Oculus launch titles is Lucky's Tale, a third person platformer. And by all accounts, has utilized VR very well.

The major factor of VR is that it opens up a new world of game design options, when you're not just limited to such basic key inputs. Indie games will form new genres, and eventually, yes AAA devs will adopt the genres that indies create and milk the shit out of them, but regardless, new genres will form, which for me is the most exciting thing to happen in the gaming industry during my lifetime.

EDIT: To build upon this.

In a matter of weeks, there will be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people with high end VR HMDs. These people shelled out at least 600USD for their item, meaning they have a substantial amount of disposable income. People who have invested so much into their HMD will want to continue to invest more money to make their investment more worthwhile. In a space that has a high barrier to development such as VR, the number of titles in this formative time will be relatively few. So:

Market filled with people with high amounts of disposable income to spend on the small number of titles = substantially more VR titles owned by each average consumer than most Steam users = higher income for VR devs

I believe this is the best market for indie devs to be working in at the moment.

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1126
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2016-03-23 13:25:54 »

Eww, given the total money pit that 3D is for most indies, would it really be prudent to attempt both 3D and target a market barely 0.01% of the size?

Cas Smiley

Offline Oskuro

JGO Ninja


Medals: 77
Exp: 10 years


Coding in Style


« Reply #9 - Posted 2016-03-23 14:10:34 »

I'm really looking forward to this, but I agree that it will be a niche market at best, at least until hardware prices drop to more reasonable levels.

I'd compare it with all the fancy peripherals like steering wheels or advanced flightsticks, they work wonders for the games they are desinged for, but not so many games come out for them, seeing how they are horribly expensive.


Sucks too, because with VR being really new there's a lot of weird untapped (and easy to get into) markets to jump into, like hybrid "2.5d platformers" and other fun stuff that VR could make really interesting.

I'm thinking that, for 3rd person games, VR tech could finally solve most camera issues. You could control the player character with a standard peripheral (keyboard/gamepad) and point the camera with your head.

For games based on precision jumping and the like it would be natural, I mean, who hasn't reflexively tried to look beyond the screen borders when jumping around under bad camera angles?

Same with driving/piloting games, where turning the camera is usually a hassle.

I really hope lots of cool stuff will pop up!

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1126
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2016-03-23 14:18:13 »

One avenue that I should hope will be rapidly discarded is 3rd person. VR is about one thing and one thing only: the central position of yourself as the avatar. No other perspective makes the remotest sense, unless you're trying to actually achieve an out-of-body experience. Which will be fun. Once.

Where VR will be much more successful is in controlled commercial settings. AR is likely to do better than VR in both home ent. and commercial settings too.

Cas Smiley

Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Reply #11 - Posted 2016-03-23 15:35:33 »

One avenue that I should hope will be rapidly discarded is 3rd person. VR is about one thing and one thing only: the central position of yourself as the avatar. No other perspective makes the remotest sense, unless you're trying to actually achieve an out-of-body experience. Which will be fun. Once.

Have you tried and tested this yourself?

VR is a very expectation defying thing. I've used the DK2 and GearVR myself. Before those I was skeptical of VR, but now I really want it to do well.

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1126
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2016-03-23 16:02:08 »

I'm not sceptical of the various ways in which it can be used, but I am pretty sceptical about its mainstream adoption in gaming. I can see first person being the 99% of normal use in VR and there might indeed be some peculiar scenes in which a 3rd person perspective would be interesting, but I don't think that will be a normal use and designs will most likely gravitate away from 3rd person positions in fairly short order. Well, that's my prediction anyway Grin We'll have to wait and see. But I won't be buying any VR tech any time soon, if ever.

Cas Smiley

Offline Gjallar

JGO Knight


Medals: 47
Projects: 1


Follower of Nurgle


« Reply #13 - Posted 2016-03-23 16:13:49 »

I think a strategy top-down kind of game could also work really well for VR. All these little fellas running about at your command while you gaze at them from the sky like the god you are.

Has the added benefit that it's probably less nausea-inducing than 1st person and might be more suitable for most people. But yeah, 1st person has the bigger market for sure.
Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Reply #14 - Posted 2016-03-23 16:15:27 »

I think a strategy top-down kind of game could also work really well for VR. All these little fellas running about at your command while you gaze at them from the sky like the god you are.

Has the added benefit that it's probably less nausea-inducing than 1st person and might be more suitable for most people. But yeah, 1st person has the bigger market for sure.

I think the cool thing about VR is that you're really just applying first person to camera models that we traditionally considered to not be, and this is a great example, where you are literally a godlike figure.

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1126
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2016-03-23 16:30:00 »

That is, technically, still a first-person perspective, with you as God. Where I see it failing is for example where you are expected to directly control an avatar in the 3rd person as if it were an extension of your own body, eg. a platform jumping game, or an arena shooter - I can't think of a worse use for VR.

Cas Smiley

Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Reply #16 - Posted 2016-03-23 16:33:56 »

That is, technically, still a first-person perspective, with you as God. Where I see it failing is for example where you are expected to directly control an avatar in the 3rd person as if it were an extension of your own body, eg. a platform jumping game, or an arena shooter - I can't think of a worse use for VR.

Cas Smiley

http://www.wired.com/2014/06/oculus-luckys-tale/

EDIT: what I'm trying to say is, don't write something off because you think it sounds like a bad idea on paper, having not tried it.

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1126
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2016-03-23 17:00:15 »

Haha, thwarted by an ad-blocker-blocker Smiley Sod that!

At the end of the day though I'm sure that it's all pretty amazing after a while but I think it's going to go exactly the same way as 3D TV and cinema, and even the Wii. The novelty will rapidly wear off and then the inconvenience, pomp and ceremony will become a chore and the whole thing will be put into a cupboard and gather dust, and in the meantime the number of people creating content for VR will shrink drastically when it turns out there's better ways to spend money on development.

For myself, I'm just going to play on Cliffski's VR kit when he finally gets something interesting to play on it in his giant living room, and otherwise continue to fritter my own hard-earned money on motorcycles, sunshine and actual reality Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline Gjallar

JGO Knight


Medals: 47
Projects: 1


Follower of Nurgle


« Reply #18 - Posted 2016-03-23 17:05:15 »

The novelty will rapidly wear off and then the inconvenience, pomp and ceremony will become a chore and the whole thing will be put into a cupboard and gather dust, and in the meantime the number of people creating content for VR will shrink drastically when it turns out there's better ways to spend money on development.

So you might aswell jump the bandwagon now and get all the new and shiny things while the "golden age" of VR still lasts  Wink
Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Reply #19 - Posted 2016-03-23 19:37:41 »

Goldman sachs (high profile market analysts) predict VR to be an $80 billion dollar industry by 2025, and although they may be dicks, they have a lot of experience about this sort of thing.

Offline ags1

JGO Kernel


Medals: 367
Projects: 7


Make code not war!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2016-03-23 19:55:18 »

I'm investing in VR, but realistically will only have all the bits and pieces by christmas (I still need the GPU, and headset of course). That's enough time to see if it is taking root or not. If it is flopping then I will buy a bigger telescope instead. In that case I will only have overspent on my GPU by a hundred euros or so, so not a big financial loss.

Also I am hoping OSVR will become the dominant VR standard. I want to buy a VR headset in the same way I buy a monitor - just imagine if some games were "exclusive" to Samsung monitors, or would only work with Razr gaming mice... Closed systems like Vive or Oculus will hopefully die out.

Offline jonjava
« Reply #21 - Posted 2016-03-23 20:22:42 »

I've had the DK2 for about a year now. It's basically the same version they're selling now except a bit lesser resolution. Which is not good. It's still a gimmicky piece that needs fiddling to get it just right - even on games with rift support. It needs to double the resolution it currently has at the very least.

It's obviously a hobbyist piece of kit and will be for probably at least 3 years still. The same people into racing and flying sims will benefit the most. And for them it's absolutely worth it (with double the current resolution). VR, especially on sims, is mesmerizingly impressive.

FPS games can work, but it will require a special UI from the game to be usable.

Another thing is Augmented Reality, which I think can be much more useful and much more widespread - when and if they get it right.

They're coming but it'll probably take a decade still.

Offline Cero
« Reply #22 - Posted 2016-03-24 08:22:18 »

VR is gonna change everything... from education to sharing vacation 'photos'

Gaming will be changed but especially in the beginning it will be hard to convey gaming experiences, it will be totally different anyway.
I also predict that HL3 will come specifically made for the Vive, and this is coming from someone who though that game wont come ever until recently.
But yes traditional gaming will be completely parallel to this and largely unaffected apart from VR shovelware.

When exactly will what exactly happen? Well thats tough. But I think HL3 will be one of the first killer apps and I think within 3 years.

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1126
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2016-03-24 10:15:36 »

I am at a loss to work out how it is possible to make VR shovelware given that the barrier to entry is so incredibly high for both consumers and producers.

Cas Smiley

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #24 - Posted 2016-03-24 11:41:28 »

We have a Vive at work which we've prototyped a few different games with.  I think it's true to say that first person is the most reasonable POV for VR but I don't think there are going to be a lot of FPSs.  One of the major issues is that people don't think you should move the camera and without motion, a modern FPS isn't possible.  I think you will find a few strategy games with the God-view and a few first person games where you interact with a environment rather than enemies.  But the thing that REALLY bothers me is this idea of not moving the camera.  If people can't get over that, I doubt how varied VR experiences are going to be.  No variety == no market.
Offline jonjava
« Reply #25 - Posted 2016-03-24 12:49:28 »

I don't think so. Sim gamers spend hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars into improving the experience. A flightstick alone will net you 200$ or 400$ for a good one - same goes for racing wheels. Beyond that, above the hobbyist level you get embedded chair systems for a few thousand. Even if it's niche there'll definitely be a market for it.

Offline FabulousFellini
« Reply #26 - Posted 2016-03-24 19:12:57 »

That is, technically, still a first-person perspective, with you as God. Where I see it failing is for example where you are expected to directly control an avatar in the 3rd person as if it were an extension of your own body, eg. a platform jumping game, or an arena shooter - I can't think of a worse use for VR.

Cas Smiley

I played around with my friend's VR yesterday, played the Zelda (I think it was Zelda) platform game, and I have to say it was kind of weird.  Without being able to move the camera it was hard to figure out how far you had to jump at times, especially when jumping away or towards you.  I was also surprised at how pixelated it looked.  Overall, I didn't really like the 3rd person perspective, and would like to see what a FPS would be like.

-FabulousFellini
www.fabulousfellini.com
Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Reply #27 - Posted 2016-03-24 20:54:36 »

I am at a loss to work out how it is possible to make VR shovelware given that the barrier to entry is so incredibly high for both consumers and producers.

Cas Smiley

VR on desktop has a high barrier for consumers, but mobile VR does not.
I don't know about wherever you live, but here some cereal companies have instructions on how to cut up their boxes and provide a pair of lenses to make a Google Cardboard type thing for your phone.

And VR development is pretty easy to get into with Unity/CryEngine/Unreal/etc.

Offline Cero
« Reply #28 - Posted 2016-03-24 21:11:10 »

I am at a loss to work out how it is possible to make VR shovelware given that the barrier to entry is so incredibly high for both consumers and producers.

Cas Smiley
Well you can always make a shitty unoptimized port of your FPS game that you released on PC anyway, and similarly you can just release your VR game with FPS controls on PC.
Cheap and easy, we'll see a lot of those.

Online NegativeZero

JGO Kernel


Medals: 346
Exp: 1 month or less


Zero but not.


« Reply #29 - Posted 2016-03-24 21:26:57 »

I've had the DK2 for about a year now. It's basically the same version they're selling now except a bit lesser resolution. Which is not good. It's still a gimmicky piece that needs fiddling to get it just right - even on games with rift support. It needs to double the resolution it currently has at the very least.

My understanding is that the resolution with the dev kits were due to them using shitty lenses, which the CV1 doesn't use, so I imagine the resolution appears to be significantly better (as well as Oculus solving things such as screen door effect, etc). However, I agree that the first thing I noticed when I put on the DK2 and GearVR was the resolution. However, when I used the DK2, I stopped noticing the resolution after a while. Can't say the same about the GearVR, it was always kind of annoying for me.

The other thing about the resolution is that you need to adjust the thing for your eyes, which I didn't get to on either device as I only used demo gear, so it would've appeared worse for me than it does you.

EDIT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjE6qXd6Itw&feature=youtu.be looks neat.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 

 
Riven (185 views)
2019-09-04 15:33:17

hadezbladez (4864 views)
2018-11-16 13:46:03

hadezbladez (1785 views)
2018-11-16 13:41:33

hadezbladez (5136 views)
2018-11-16 13:35:35

hadezbladez (1016 views)
2018-11-16 13:32:03

EgonOlsen (4367 views)
2018-06-10 19:43:48

EgonOlsen (5215 views)
2018-06-10 19:43:44

EgonOlsen (2946 views)
2018-06-10 19:43:20

DesertCoockie (3867 views)
2018-05-13 18:23:11

nelsongames (4293 views)
2018-04-24 18:15:36
Java Gaming Resources
by philfrei
2019-05-14 16:15:13

Deployment and Packaging
by philfrei
2019-05-08 15:15:36

Deployment and Packaging
by philfrei
2019-05-08 15:13:34

Deployment and Packaging
by philfrei
2019-02-17 20:25:53

Deployment and Packaging
by mudlee
2018-08-22 18:09:50

Java Gaming Resources
by gouessej
2018-08-22 08:19:41

Deployment and Packaging
by gouessej
2018-08-22 08:04:08

Deployment and Packaging
by gouessej
2018-08-22 08:03:45
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!