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Offline princec

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2011-08-05 21:12:41 »

I'm pretty sure they can fit thousands into RAM - remember they don't need textures, so all that RAM normally wasted on diffuse textures, glossmaps, bumpmaps, etc - that's all free to store point cloud geometry instead.

Naive view - if it's 1 vertex3f, an RGBA colour and a float radius for each point, they could store 56 million points in a gig of RAM (or disk space or whatever). That's a lot of objects at rather high resolution I think.

Cas Smiley

Offline Abuse

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« Reply #31 - Posted 2011-08-05 21:18:08 »

The way they are doing this is clearly not storing every single grain of sand in memory. They have maybe one grain of sand, and then they have an ingenious way of recursively referencing it to make bigger objects out of smaller objects out of smaller objects out of smaller objects, which appear to be overlappable and scaleable and rotatable.
I fully agree, as I said above I can only see about 10 distinct items (maybe less). I think that is what might be key here. Having a couple of point cloud objects, that might work ok on a modest PC, but for any real game you would need hundreds.

Which will be fine if the size on disc increases linearly with the number of unique objects. (as it would if it's implemented in a way similar to princec's suggestion)

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Offline JL235

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2011-08-05 22:23:05 »

Naive view - if it's 1 vertex3f, an RGBA colour and a float radius for each point, they could store 56 million points in a gig of RAM (or disk space or whatever). That's a lot of objects at rather high resolution I think.
If we had a resolution of 1 point per cubic millimetre, and build a perfectly smooth cube shaped 'building' which is 10x10x3 meters in size, that is 3,000,000 points. By that estimation, n 1gb of ram you can fit around 18 of them. That excludes building details (cracks, windows, door frames, surface bumps) which would use dramatically more points, being able to go inside the building, random objects, the floor, trees, stuff in the background, underground stuff (i.e. sewers), people and animals. Plenty of games, today, have all of that and more in an area.

But their latest demo was at '64 atoms per cubic millimetre', not 1, so you'd actually have only just over a quarter of a building. If we take compression into account, perhaps can get them down to just 0.5 bit's per point, then you'd have 4.6 89 entirely plain buildings in 1gb of ram. That's a lot better I had originally thought, but considering there is _nothing_ else, it's still not a huge amount. That is also with the very optimistic presumption of having such a high rate of compression for storing xyz, radius and rgba together.

For a whole gig of ram, that doesn't sound like much to me. They also said they were starting to move this onto the graphics card, so that really would need to fit into 1gb of video ram, and according to the Steam hardware survay, 92% to 96% of Steam users have a PC with 1gb of video ram or less. They also heavily implied that this will run perfectly fine on current technology, even saying they want to have it running on the Wii and on mobile phones.

I can believe the project is entirely real, with real plans to get it out, and it's just being heavily over-sold (the whole 'unlimited detail' running perfectly on today's computers). But the numbers just don't add up for this to be working in the next year. I'd expect the quality will probably drop, and hardware estimates will go up, when their running demo is eventually released.

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Offline Abuse

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« Reply #33 - Posted 2011-08-05 23:06:50 »

Model the bricks from which the building is constructed (215 × 102.5 × 65 mm), rather the building as a whole.

Model small objects with point cloud data, and duplicate them to build larger constructs.
It has pleasing parallels to real world construction.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2011-08-05 23:12:28 »

Model the bricks from which the building is constructed (215 × 102.5 × 65 mm), rather the building as a whole.

Model small objects with point cloud data, and duplicate them to build larger constructs.
It has pleasing parallels to real world construction.
Exactly. You model 2 or 3 different bricks. Then you model 2 or 3 different sections of wall with 4x8 bricks. Then you model 4 walls out of several sections. It's not hard to see how you'd only need a tiny fraction of that original estimate. It's also easy to see how you could model every grain of sand in the beach and zooming in to look at it you'd probably never know it was about 20kb of data.

Cas Smiley

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2011-08-05 23:27:10 »

Resolving searches into overlapping point clouds must be an interesting problem; I guess models further into the transformation tree take priority over their parents. (so you can start out with a simple flat surface, and deform it both positively and negatively using successive children)

Though it's anybodies guess how overlapping point clouds between two siblings in the transformation tree are handled. (for instance if the elephant statues seen in the demo were placed intersecting one-another by their parent transform)
Perhaps that's just an assets issue; i.e. don't do it!

I wonder if the resolution of every object's point cloud in a given world has to be the same, or if it can vary per object.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #36 - Posted 2011-08-05 23:42:49 »

I have a feeling they can arbitrarily scale and rotate their point clouds.

Damnit I really want to know how it works Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline tberthel
« Reply #37 - Posted 2011-08-06 04:49:19 »

Buy a 20k system that can process billions of poly really fast then stream that to clients over a custom internet backbone.

It is just me or is this not really ground breaking.  On Live does is with current games and VNC did it 30+ years ago.  It's called video streaming with remote input.

That's all it is, and honestly it's not a bad idea.  On Live seems to do pretty well, but it is mainly for rich people.

Offline theagentd
« Reply #38 - Posted 2011-08-06 06:52:34 »

You mean rich people who don't want to pay $1200 for a decent computer but pay $400+ a month + the On Live monthly cost for good enough Internet to play the same game in 720p with video compression and input delay? I would change that to rich stupid people.

Myomyomyo.
Offline erikd

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« Reply #39 - Posted 2011-08-06 10:51:46 »

Running the risk of confusing voxels with this, I can imagine they run into similar difficulties with animation. However, this guy has made some progress in that area:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl6PE_n6zTk

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Offline Gudradain
« Reply #40 - Posted 2011-08-07 18:30:19 »

CryEngine3 seems to use ''integrated voxel object''. Don't know why
Offline appel

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« Reply #41 - Posted 2011-08-07 20:25:19 »

I'm pretty sure they can fit thousands into RAM - remember they don't need textures, so all that RAM normally wasted on diffuse textures, glossmaps, bumpmaps, etc - that's all free to store point cloud geometry instead.

Naive view - if it's 1 vertex3f, an RGBA colour and a float radius for each point, they could store 56 million points in a gig of RAM (or disk space or whatever). That's a lot of objects at rather high resolution I think.

Cas Smiley

1 gig of RAM is quickly becoming miniscule. My computer is 4-5 years old, it has 4 gig RAM. If I were to buy a computer today I'd get 16 gig.

And with people getting hundreds of gigs of SSD's, loading new data will be an ease.

Technological progress is working with them.

Maybe the obstacle isn't graphical detail, but rather bringing the world to life with movement, animation and such.

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Offline JL235

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Medals: 10



« Reply #42 - Posted 2011-08-08 01:35:44 »

I'm pretty sure they can fit thousands into RAM - remember they don't need textures, so all that RAM normally wasted on diffuse textures, glossmaps, bumpmaps, etc - that's all free to store point cloud geometry instead.

Naive view - if it's 1 vertex3f, an RGBA colour and a float radius for each point, they could store 56 million points in a gig of RAM (or disk space or whatever). That's a lot of objects at rather high resolution I think.

Cas Smiley

1 gig of RAM is quickly becoming miniscule. My computer is 4-5 years old, it has 4 gig RAM. If I were to buy a computer today I'd get 16 gig.

And with people getting hundreds of gigs of SSD's, loading new data will be an ease.

Technological progress is working with them.

Maybe the obstacle isn't graphical detail, but rather bringing the world to life with movement, animation and such.
I just looked on ebuyer; out of 151 laptops only 19 have more then 4gb, and for desktops it is 19 out of 126. On the Steam Hardware Survey, only 7.99% of users have 5gb or more. It'll still be more then 5 years before most people have 16gb or more.

I'd also bet that high-speed SSD's (not all SSDs are fast such as those in the early eee PCs), are much less common then having more then 4gb of ram.

Offline Cero
« Reply #43 - Posted 2011-08-08 02:01:27 »

I'm pretty sure they can fit thousands into RAM - remember they don't need textures, so all that RAM normally wasted on diffuse textures, glossmaps, bumpmaps, etc - that's all free to store point cloud geometry instead.

Naive view - if it's 1 vertex3f, an RGBA colour and a float radius for each point, they could store 56 million points in a gig of RAM (or disk space or whatever). That's a lot of objects at rather high resolution I think.

Cas Smiley

1 gig of RAM is quickly becoming miniscule. My computer is 4-5 years old, it has 4 gig RAM. If I were to buy a computer today I'd get 16 gig.

And with people getting hundreds of gigs of SSD's, loading new data will be an ease.

Technological progress is working with them.

Maybe the obstacle isn't graphical detail, but rather bringing the world to life with movement, animation and such.
I just looked on ebuyer; out of 151 laptops only 19 have more then 4gb, and for desktops it is 19 out of 126. On the Steam Hardware Survey, only 7.99% of users have 5gb or more. It'll still be more then 5 years before most people have 16gb or more.

I'd also bet that high-speed SSD's (not all SSDs are fast such as those in the early eee PCs), are much less common then having more then 4gb of ram.

I have a SSD, maybe not worth the price, but there is benefit.
But more than 4 GB RAM ? when would you ever need that ?
Maybe if you're playing a new game, while doing 3d stuff in maya, while having photoshop open, while watching a HD vid, in a 4 screen setup...on windows vista

I only recently got 4 because I had 3x 1GB Ram, and one broke, so I got a 2GB
I never maxed out 3GB even with 3 screens - work, entertainment, browser
not even with video editing, 3d stuff, or photoshop ( like I said unless you're doing everything at once maybe)

Offline swpalmer

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« Reply #44 - Posted 2011-08-08 03:30:46 »

But more than 4 GB RAM ? when would you ever need that ?
Maybe if you're playing a new game, while doing 3d stuff in maya, while having photoshop open, while watching a HD vid, in a 4 screen setup...on windows vista

Um nearly always...
I'm running OS X 10.7 (Lion) on a laptop with 8 GB RAM... I have my email open (Mail.app), a Terminal window or two, Finder, iChat, lots of other little system things (Dashboard etc.) and Activity Monitor...  current memory usage is: 5.40 GB.
... no swapping though... - much nicer than an SSD and way cheaper Wink

Offline appel

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« Reply #45 - Posted 2011-08-08 10:41:19 »

No need for more than 4 gig? Uh?   Roll Eyes

Being the multitalent that I am  Tongue I usually have Firefox with at least dozen tabs open, I have DbVisualizer open, I have Eclipse open and IntelliJ, and Outlook, and Acrobat reader, and Photoshop, and Inkscape, and running Starcraft 2, and watching a video, textpad, notepad, cmd prompt, putty, IE, etc.

I currently have 4 gigs, and it's borderline "sufficient". 8 gigs might be more than sufficient for TODAYs usage. But getting 16 gigs TODAY might provide for some future-proofness, because programs do require increasingly more memory. But honestly, I'd only get 8 gigs today, and another 8 gigs pair in 2 years time.

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Offline Cero
« Reply #46 - Posted 2011-08-08 13:52:29 »

There are obviously many programs I avoid because of unnecessary bloat.

Acrobat reader

One example. Using SumatraPDF.

Offline princec

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« Reply #47 - Posted 2011-08-08 14:35:46 »

I don't really think in terms of necessary or unnecessary bloat any more - just whether something works properly. Or I wouldn't be such a fan of Java, which is massively overengineered for 90% of the time versus a simple C program equivalent! I mean, using 8mb of RAM to print out Hello World? Crazy! But convenient. So it's cheaper for us all to buy 4gb of RAM than it is to have all programmers spending twice the development time and hence increasing the costs of all software produced.

I've got 6gb in my Vista64 box and usually use up at least 4 by the time I get to a working desktop!

Cas Smiley

Offline namrog84

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« Reply #48 - Posted 2011-08-08 14:57:55 »

With regards to ram usage.
I honestly thought in Vista and Windows 7 they changed the way ram is allocated/reserved.

Prior to Vista, it was allocated on what was being used by the program, but in vista and windows 7. It preallocates ram so that if it "might" need it, it has a reserved spot, however when other programs start saying I need more ram, it starts to take ram away from a program that appears to be using more, when in reality its not actually utilizing it.

i.e. XP says oh your using 500megs of your 4 gigs,  vista (although running mostly same stuff, might say your using 2 gigs of your 4) but in reality, its still only using 500 megs, but just has temporarily appeared to given more ram to programs "just incase" ? or some random bullshit like that.

Now clearly, sometimes this isn't the case, especially browsing with a ton of applets/flash, and 50 tabs of pages open.  

I remember when vista first came out that people were freaking out about high ram usage and very few people ever realized it was because the change in pre allocation. (which can be modified somewhere/somehow)

I still think 4 gigs is still plenty for most everyone outside of the world of photo/video editing and 3d graphics.(though I do personally have either 4, 6 or 8 in my computers.   Check out the "performance comparative tests" where they run the same system/apps with 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 gigs and see the minimal to non existent changes in performance"

[size=6pt]This is what I thought, I could be totally off base if someone could prove me wrong. I'll gladly be open to counter arguments [/size]

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Offline Abuse

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« Reply #49 - Posted 2011-08-08 19:00:47 »

For a new potencially memory heavy rendering tech it's the max memory capability of current hardware that matters, not what people actually have installed.

Write a revolutionary game that needs 8GB minimum and people will happily go out and buy 8GB (~£50).
It's when the potencial customer has to upgrade their motherboard, processor, and operating system too that you run into problems. (£300+)

Tbh though this is all completely irrelevant; Unlimited Detail tech is still experimental so we're still atleast 2 years from seeing a game built upon it.
I wonder if it'll be sufficiently mature in time to shape the hardware specifications of the next gen. consoles.
Personally I'd love it not to be, as we'd see PC titles quickly eclipse their console equivalents.

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Online Roquen
« Reply #50 - Posted 2011-08-08 20:11:29 »

Graphics hardware is moving more and more toward general purpose computation anyway.
Offline bobjob

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« Reply #51 - Posted 2011-08-11 02:00:37 »

NEW VIDEO:

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Offline theagentd
« Reply #52 - Posted 2011-08-11 04:33:57 »

Level of distance...?  Angry I'm pretty sure it's Level of Detail. >___>

Okay, so they seem to be able to solve most of the problems they've been criticized for. They can apparently do some animations, though that wasn't overly convincing. Memory usage was just "That's not a problem." though... I'm gonna assume that they have solved or will solve many of these problems. Over a few years graphics performance improved several thousand times with parallel processing graphics cards. This would be the same increase if you consider the time span of their work. This isn't coming out of the blue, they've been working on it for years.
I would like to ask a question about the actual rendering. If they as they say only need one atom for one pixel, wouldn't that introduce HORRIBLE shimmering? Sure, you can render stuff miles away, but that would be like not using mipmaps on an extremely large texture. Huge aliasing problems and huge shimmering problems. I don't see how they can solve that. It's not like you can do multisampling here too, as you're almost guaranteed to have different atoms in every sample. The only solution would be supersampling (performance) or GOAA (Glasses-off antialiasing, also known as MLAA/FXAA to the ignorant masses). However it doesn't look like they have a problem with this in the video, but it's hard to see...

Myomyomyo.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #53 - Posted 2011-08-11 06:14:05 »

If they as they say only need one atom for one pixel, wouldn't that introduce HORRIBLE shimmering? Sure, you can render stuff miles away, but that would be like not using mipmaps on an extremely large texture. Huge aliasing problems and huge shimmering problems. I don't see how they can solve that. It's not like you can do multisampling here too, as you're almost guaranteed to have different atoms in every sample. The only solution would be supersampling (performance) or GOAA (Glasses-off antialiasing, also known as MLAA/FXAA to the ignorant masses). However it doesn't look like they have a problem with this in the video, but it's hard to see...
Agreed, if they are grabbing one atom then you would have terrible shimmering. But clearly they have the problem solved. They are either lying, and are grabbing multiple atoms, or they could be using some sort of tree to represent the data and they go deeper for more detail. Essentially each layer is a mipmap.

I am much more impressed after seeing it actually running, but they still need a laptop with 8gb of ram in order to run what is just a tech demo (less resource intensive them a typical game). Again, given that only a tiny proportion of PC users have that much ram, and that only a tiny proportion of PC's on sale today have that much ram, I still don't see how this can be usable any time soon.

However given that a triple-A game could easily take 5 years to be built, and UD will be out in at least another year, we could be seeing 6 or 7 years before we actually get to play a full game using this technology. By then we'll certainly have more then 8gb of ram, but I can imagine this would still be pushing the upper limit of memory usage.

Offline xsvenson
« Reply #54 - Posted 2011-08-11 11:57:34 »

A few things I would like to bring out. The most I was impressed with was the fact that he claimed running the demo in software mode. If that's true, then I've yet to see something in software run as smooth as that on my PC with those details and I can't say that mine is too old. Even the screenshots of minecraft are lagging my machine (or maybe I'm over exaggerating with that last one Tongue )

Also saying that the laptop *needs* 8GB is a speculation. He took out the network cable but he could have used wireless to connect to the Chinese server farm and download the jpegs.

Though I would have been interested in the system usage. Running on win, a task manager window would have been nice.


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Offline Riven
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« Reply #55 - Posted 2011-08-11 12:13:06 »

He took out the network cable but he could have used wireless to connect to the Chinese server farm and download the jpegs.

Though I would have been interested in the system usage. Running on win, a task manager window would have been nice.

If you're that paranoid, a task-manager wouldn't prove anything, as it could be part of the movie / video feed.

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Offline kevglass

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« Reply #56 - Posted 2011-08-11 12:15:45 »

A downloadable demo would be nice.

See it on my machine, locally. Win.

Kev

Offline xsvenson
« Reply #57 - Posted 2011-08-11 12:25:34 »


If you're that paranoid, a task-manager wouldn't prove anything, as it could be part of the movie / video feed.

True. But I'm not paranoid. It was meant as an example for another unnecessary speculation.

The interview and the video convinced me. Then again I may be a bit naive or gullible.

“The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet.” - Michael A. Jackson
Offline woogley
« Reply #58 - Posted 2011-08-11 12:30:36 »

The interview and the video convinced me. Then again I may be a bit naive or gullible.

Don't fall for it. Did you not notice the frequent video cuts, staged questions, and the two bumbling idiots looking at their card/paper notes because they can't remember their own fake interview script?

The CEO was the one driving that "interview"
Offline krasse
« Reply #59 - Posted 2011-08-11 14:32:52 »

I think that it is hilarious that they show a raytracing example and generalize and say that the result is ugly.
They also demonstrate tesselation with a low-res heightmap.
Not a word about procedural techniques for geometry and textures which should be an obvious comparison. Take for example the raytracer POV-Ray (and lots of other) which uses implicit descriptions of environments and get an "infinite" detail by just using more rays. The "search algorithm" that they use can't be that extremely different from a raytracer right?
The most impressive part is the update speed (unless they fake it) and the antialising. Even with everything being axis-aligned in grid, this surely is impressive.
This "interview" just make me even more skeptical than after the previous video.

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