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Offline Hydroque

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« Posted 2016-02-21 00:07:33 »

Let's discuss why Unity is such shit.

My views:
Object oriented and hidden customizable things
Complicated UI that doesn't fit anyones preferences
Code that I don't trust is doing simplistic things
Really high level code floods the space
Horrible style of code

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Longarmx
« Reply #1 - Posted 2016-02-21 00:15:31 »

Don't shout too loud...you forgot that Basingstoke is being developed in Unity. (Though princec may have something to say about this)  Grin

Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2016-02-21 00:18:39 »

Your post left out a lot of description and had a mixed message. Not sure what you are trying to say.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
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Offline DrHalfway
« Reply #3 - Posted 2016-02-21 01:21:47 »

I've been working with Unity3D for the last 3 years or so.

Coming from a Java background and had written my own engine in it, I would agree that some of the things Unity3D does is less than optimal, however this is a problem that plagues most Game Engines anyway.

In the end though, none of it matters. What matters is to get a project out the door in a good time, afterwards you can invest time and energy optimizing the project to run silky smooth. This is something that you will have to do with most projects anyway, regardless which language/library you used to write them.

One thing that is excellent wit Unity is how easy it is to extend it for your own needs. I've got no less than 12 different libraries I've written to help me with the various projects that I'm working on ranging from one-click UI template creators to mesh optimization tools to automated testing of code. You'll find that again, this is something you'll have to do regardless which engine/framework/library you use. One of the more recent fun extensions was a tool which allows me to import LibGDX's G3DJ and G3DB file formats which are downloaded and displayed at runtime.

Less bashing, more writing!


Offline Longarmx
« Reply #4 - Posted 2016-02-21 01:48:33 »

Your post left out a lot of description and had a mixed message. Not sure what you are trying to say.

Sorry, I got ahead of myself: http://www.puppygames.net/

To contribute to this thread: in my limited use of Unity, I didn't find it too bad. There were some weird quirks that I had to work around, but in the end, it did its job: to increase the speed of game development. I can't imagine how long it would take me to create an engine that achieved the limited functionality of Unity that I experienced.

Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2016-02-21 02:14:13 »

Quote
Sorry, I got ahead of myself: http://www.puppygames.net/
I googled the name that you said. It has no hype lol.

Quote
What matters is to get a project out the door in a good time
Quote
regardless which language/library you used to write them.
Quote
how easy it is to extend it for your own needs
You stated that for a rushed project or a project you just want to create without worrying about it being any sort of extendable (and in my case fun to make), you should use Unity. It is extendable for it's own needs.


You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Cero
« Reply #6 - Posted 2016-02-21 18:35:45 »

Quote
Sorry, I got ahead of myself: http://www.puppygames.net/
I googled the name that you said. It has no hype lol.
It got featured on rock paper shotgun and destructoid, I wouldnt call that "no hype" :o

My experience with unity has been rotten shit so far, I also really dont like the mono develop and many of the internal workings as well as design philosophies of... which is basically an elaborate general purpose game maker for prototyping.
To this date I dont know of many "any" AAA games that run smoothly and use Unity, one big one is Dreamfall Chapters, which runs like ass.

But of course I realize that MOST of the issue are because of who and how these tools are used, not the tools itself. The unity assets store, the easy access... people have no idea how to code, develop, test and publish... having zero idea about low level stuff
it results in the shitfest we call unity games, usually laughed at by the internet specially by Sterling

However, most people of course that I talk to and reveal that I make games or... anything really with Java, you also get that attitude, even in 2016, "everything done in java is shit, slow, resource hog" and so on and so forth.
And after so many years of experience, you know WHY these people say that, and you cant really defend it... you know its not true, but a lot of works desktop apps done with java show some of these behaviors, and its down the fact that people who coded it had no idea what they were doing / gave no shit, or both.

So its just the same deal with Unity.I f you really really understand unity to the core, you probably can make a something beyond a prototype and do it well.
Of course I might argue that you may as well invest time into learning Unreal Engine instead, and that time better spend... but hey~

The reason this type of things happens with these languages and tools more, is because they are easier and they let you get away with more. If you screw around like that and dont care about memory management and clean ups and all that, your C++ app is gonna crash on you, no mercy.

TL;DR its not that unity sucks so infinitely hard, its barrier to entry is low and making games is popular that it invites all these morons and lets them get away with shoddy work. That being said I still hated my time working with unity. maybe if I could use java and eclipse it would be more bearable

Offline Hydroque

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Medals: 25
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I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #7 - Posted 2016-02-21 18:55:21 »

Your points have not been overlooked, Cero. I strongly see what you are talking about. In my time developing in Unity, I was never satisfied on the level I was working on. I want to communicate directly with the graphics card, not have some game maker do it for me. Idk what it is doing. Since learning OpenGL/AL, I've been happy knowing that all my stuff isn't shotty. Although, I need to understand OpenAL more becasue I am going to implement a shit ton of sound file formats loader library for Java. Then strongly ask for it to be featured with LWJGL's repository. There isn't any such good thing out there in Java for sound.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Grunnt

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Complex != complicated


« Reply #8 - Posted 2016-02-21 18:58:08 »

Kerbal Space Program is made in Unity. Nuff said.

Offline Cero
« Reply #9 - Posted 2016-02-21 19:19:06 »

Kerbal Space Program is made in Unity. Nuff said.
The number of games that run well and are made with unity, that I know of, just raised to 1 x)
Like I said you need people that know what they do.

Hearthstone in fact is done with Unity, obviously not because Unity is so good but because they wanted to have in on phones and tablets immediately.
You might call its AAA but its 2D, a card game... AND it does actually not perform too well for being a freaking card game. But yeah when someone like Blizzard uses it, I wouldnt worry of course

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Offline KaiHH

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2016-02-21 19:22:51 »

Cities: Skylines
Offline Cero
« Reply #11 - Posted 2016-02-21 19:39:28 »

wow
thats actually a pretty intensive game, thats amazing

Online princec

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2016-02-21 20:54:41 »

Unity is amazing. The only thing holding it back really (for me) is that it runs atop Mono.

We've had a very useful and instructive time developing Basingstoke in Unity. Myself, I've only done a little bit of it, but I've been watching development closely (and pseudomanaging it).
I'm terribly disappointed that JavaFX isn't even remotely able to compete.

Cas Smiley

Offline delt0r

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Computers can do that?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2016-02-21 21:49:23 »

Well so far my unity experience has been, Crash crash crash. On different phones and targets it doesn't really work that well for us. And well i can't fix anything under the hood. After talking to others, this seems to be par for the course.

Otherwise the idea and concepts seem fine. I don't need high performance i just need it to work. But most importantly i need it to work across targets reasonably flawlessly, since i can't afford a room full of tech support and people just uninstall and get their refund.

The UI that works across screens and resolutions is fairly good in unity. But you do end up using a *lot* of 3rd party plugins.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline DrHalfway
« Reply #14 - Posted 2016-02-21 22:02:18 »

Some games made with Unity

Hearthstone
RUST
Cities: Skylines
Kerbal Space Program
Homeworld Deserts of Kharak
Eve: Valkyrie

I've played all but the last two. Cities: Skylines performs better than EA's newest Sim City (which ran like a dog and played like a dog).

Any game will suck and run like a dog if the developer doesn't spend the time and resources optimizing the code, regardless what technology is used.

Offline delt0r

JGO Wizard


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Computers can do that?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2016-02-21 22:54:36 »

Eve: Valkyrie is awesome. Shows what a rift can be good for.

But they currently use 100% custom and controlled hardware for it. How well does it deploy across targets. Like just different PCs?

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline NegativeZero

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Zero but not.


« Reply #16 - Posted 2016-02-22 00:19:48 »

Quote
Unity is such shit.

Unity is a tool.
When you have a good tool, the quality of the final product is only limited by the user of the tool.
If a tool can create a single good product, then it means that is a good tool.
And as evidenced earlier in the thread with such games as KSP and Cities: Skylines, Unity is a good tool.

However, like all tools, Unity has a usecase. Different people have different preferences.
Just because your usecase and your preferences do not align with those which Unity was built with in mind, does not make it shit.
It may not be the right tool for you, or for me, or many other people on JGO, but to dismiss it as shit is incredibly naïve.

One thousand, or even one million, bad products does not evidence a bad tool. It simply means that there are one thousand, or one million, people without the knowledge to sufficiently use the tool.

Offline Hydroque

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Medals: 25
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I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #17 - Posted 2016-02-22 00:55:32 »

Your points on why it isn't shit are ineffective. Just because you define it as a good tool based on your own definition doesn't make it a good tool. We are talking about the functionality for extendability and redundancy.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Hydroque

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Medals: 25
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I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #18 - Posted 2016-02-22 01:14:09 »

Your points on why it isn't shit are ineffective. Just because you define it as a good tool based on your own definition doesn't make it a good tool. We are talking about the functionality for extendability and redundancy.

Yeah, but your approach to this entire discussion is an effective way to get the thrown in Riven's soft, comfy room.

Find another thread to mislead. It's actually a good thread here until the last 2 people posting, including this one.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline HeroesGraveDev

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2016-02-22 03:54:02 »

As much as I'd love to hate on Unity, it does what it's supposed to do, and does it fairly well.

As a fun exercise, let's apply all of these to Java:

Quote
Let's discuss why Java is such shit.

My views:.
Object oriented and hidden customizable things
Complicated UI that doesn't fit anyones preferences (But at least we have 2 complicated UI libraries that don't fit anyone's preferences)
Code that I don't trust is doing simplistic things (The execution of our code is at the mercy of the JVM)
Really high level code floods the space (We really should go back to punching holes in tape)
Horrible style of code (Okay this is subjective no matter what language)

Online princec

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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2016-02-22 09:35:47 »

"Unity" the engine is excellent and does so many things out-of-the-box there is very little else to compete with it. What it doesn't do out-of-the box there's quite often an addon available for it in the infamous Asset Store. It has an incredibly vibrant community of modders and addon producers and asset crafters which put almost any other community around game development to shame.

It targets more platforms than pretty much any other integrated tool. As for phones as a platform... the big names are generally covered and fine. Incompatibility problems are largely down to the phones themselves just being a bit shit and you have the same problem in any other environment. Broadly speaking Unity has had more testing than any other environment out there - you simply won't get better. Patches and fixes are frequent.

The "asset pipeline" is excellent. Chaz can diddle around in Max making 3D animations and see it running in Unity on-screen in-game a matter of minutes. I don't know how well the 2D stuff - especially the GUI stuff - stacks up since 5.x as we're still on 4.6. I imagine it might be on a par with my own GUI stuff, but that's really very nifty so probably not Cool

Java would have been in this position if, years ago as we'd tried repeatedly to make happen, Sun had made a few decisions to allow it, but they didn't. So it's all on top of Mono now, in C#, and that's a little sad in some ways. There's still reasonable scope for someone to compete with Unity using a Java-based platform - and it would actually have a reasonable chance of success as the Java platform is a whole lot faster than the Mono platform which enables a whole superset of games and technology that require that kind of performance (and of course not to mention the huge variety of libraries available for Java gives it a great kickstart). Something based on Eclipse would be massively useful: 90% of the problems with Unity are down to the crappy bugridden IDEs (both Unity development environment, and the shockingly primitive MonoDevelop). libgdx and RoboVM are interesting places to look at to solve the cross-platform stuff, though really the elephant in the room is XBone/PS4. No Java on those two, so ... no go.

Seriously... anything would be better than the Unity/MonoDevelop unholy combo. Visual Studio is barely better than MonoDevelop for Unity work, too, before anyone pipes up.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mac70
« Reply #21 - Posted 2016-02-22 10:52:07 »

My opinion:

Unity is VERY great if you want to actually make and finish the game in reasonable amount of time - it have all kinds of features you need to achieve this goal and - even if something is missing - you can easily grab that from asset store or make on your own. Probably the biggest problem for lots of people is that you must stick to Unity API if you actually want to have something done, and that it makes writing clean code really hard (forget about good scope control unless you want to use some dirty tricks, stuff like MVC and many other useful patterns - while possible - are mostly impractical here). It also lacks good IDE, MonoDevelop or Visual Studio are not even close to NetBeans or Eclipse and tend to be much slower. Also, are you Linux user? Well... Then available toolset is even smaller - while Unity itself works on Linux natively, forget about Visual Studio.

On the other hand, Java is excellent if you want to have code-heavy stuff finished in reasonable amount of time, so - while writing game in it will in most cases take much more time than in Unity - it is very good for writing tools, especially GUI-heavy tools. Unity don't have good out of box GUI support with advanced components, while Java have two very good GUI libraries with lots of available free libraries for them: Swing and JavaFX. Like I mentioned in Unity section, Java IDE's tend to be better than their C# equivalents, you are not limited with pretty strict Unity pipeline as well.
Offline Cero
« Reply #22 - Posted 2016-02-22 15:59:37 »

Layers of Fear is also Unity. Good game but runs dog slow, 15 fps on my machine :<

Offline Cero
« Reply #23 - Posted 2016-02-22 16:05:31 »

Something based on Eclipse would be massively useful: 90% of the problems with Unity are down to the crappy bugridden IDEs (both Unity development environment, and the shockingly primitive MonoDevelop).
Yeeeah, I can see that.

Seriously... anything would be better than the Unity/MonoDevelop unholy combo. Visual Studio is barely better than MonoDevelop for Unity work, too, before anyone pipes up.
Thats surprising actually, good to know.

If I could use Eclipse with Unity I would give it a chance.
But then again if someone asks me, you gotta learn a new engine Unity or Unreal Engine, which is also free, which one do you choose? I don't really see any point of choosing Unity.

Online princec

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« Reply #24 - Posted 2016-02-22 16:52:55 »

I tried using Eclipse with Unity and it was then that I discovered that Eclipse, staggeringly, has no support for C# at all. There's an ancient half-assed syntax colourer for the editor for C# code, and that's it. Which is just bloody ridiculous. I expect it's just snobby them-and-us mentality between C# and Java camps that has prevented any serious effort getting C# working under Eclipse.

Cas  Smiley

Offline ags1

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Make code not war!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2016-02-22 18:10:40 »

We use SharpDevelop at work to support our C# clients... don't know if it works with Unity...

Offline orange451

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Your face? Your ass? What's the difference?


« Reply #26 - Posted 2016-02-22 18:39:27 »

The object pooling in unity gives me cancer :x

First Recon. A java made online first person shooter!
Offline thedanisaur

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2016-02-22 18:47:21 »

Why is this a thread? The topic is toxic bullshit and you should be ashamed Hydroque.

Every village needs an idiot Cool
Offline delt0r

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Computers can do that?


« Reply #28 - Posted 2016-02-22 20:11:08 »

I tried using Eclipse with Unity and it was then that I discovered that Eclipse, staggeringly, has no support for C# at all. There's an ancient half-assed syntax colourer for the editor for C# code, and that's it. Which is just bloody ridiculous. I expect it's just snobby them-and-us mentality between C# and Java camps that has prevented any serious effort getting C# working under Eclipse.

Cas  Smiley
If its not java, someone else has to write the thing that does all the highlighting and stuff. The Eclipse team itself doesn't do it. Since C# has good tools outside eclipse i suspect nobody has bothered.

The Scala one is fairly decent. C++ one i used a while back was also good. Hell even the latex one is good. But none of these are done by the Eclipse team.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline ziozio
« Reply #29 - Posted 2016-02-22 21:16:48 »

Your points on why it isn't shit are ineffective. Just because you define it as a good tool based on your own definition doesn't make it a good tool. We are talking about the functionality for extendability and redundancy.

Yeah, but your approach to this entire discussion is an effective way to get the thrown in Riven's soft, comfy room.

Find another thread to mislead. It's actually a good thread here until the last 2 people posting, including this one.

It is good, but only when you are not participating in it
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