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  Still hardly any games, why entity systems suck, and why 4k is good  (Read 22241 times)
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Offline princec

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« Posted 2011-11-15 11:38:45 »

I think I've been here for 10 years now. Java gaming has never really taken off in all that time - one or two notable exceptions, er, excepted. I am sort of surprised actually, given the sheer levels of success of various games that germinated here on JGO, that more attention never got focused on Java as a solution for gaming. Minecraft's sold 4 million copies, even I've shifted 300,000 copies of Revenge of the Titans, Spiral Knights by OOO (unknown numbers but basically huge), Puzzle Pirates by the same, and there have been a few other notable smaller successes such as Blocks That Matter, Tribal Trouble, er.. and a some others. And of course some other really big successes that grew entirely outside our ecosystem like Runescape and Popcap in the early days and... er... well. There are probably some others but as they don't hang out here or make much of a fuss over using Java I don't know about 'em.

Occasionally I've wondered why there aren't more successes, especially given the obvious capabilities of the platform especially when enhanced with a smidged of enabling technology (I should probably make a strong point to note, much to gouessej's obvious chagrin, that every single one of the games that have made it are based on LWJGL). Actually on the LWJGL vs JOGAmp subject it's getting pretty difficult to make the case for JOGAmp in the light of the statistics of successful games that have made lots of money, although without any specific concrete reason I still couldn't specifically recommend one over the other except for the fact I had a hand in kickstarting LWJGL.

A quick scan of the various topics that have come up over the last, oh, I dunno, year or so maybe, does point me in the direction of a theory or two as to why Java is failing to gain traction.

Firstly, this obsession with entity systems is the pustulent boil of a symptom which I used to call "object oriented wank". This is where people get so bogged down designing systems to scale to 1,000,000 simultaneous players they never actually sit down and write a bloody game. This is probably Java's greatest weakness and of course its greatest strength. It's massively powerful and flexible. So powerful and flexible that people generally tend to get confused about what they're actually trying to achieve, what they're capable of achieving, why they're doing it, and who gives a shit.

I'll tell you this for free: an entity system will not get you on Steam. It will not make your code easier to understand. It will not finish your game for you. It is not as easy to understand as just having Some Entities In An ArrayList that all extend a base Entity class. The language does not make it easier to write the code. It does not really even solve a problem you should be having. Entity systems were developed for dealing with hundreds of thousands of entities, with vast numbers of permutations in ability and operations. You can use them in your space invaders game if you like, with all 100 entities in it (with just 5 sorts of entity). But your space invaders game will forever remain a hazy idea wafting away in your bong smoke. Get a grip on reality! Why is your game not finished yet?

This sort of thing is endemic in Java and is expressed in all sorts of silly ways. There's obsessions with 3D scenegraphs when most people can't even code a 2D game. There's obsessions with using NIO (the API designed for thousands and thousands of simultaneous IO operations) when people can't even write a server that handles 4 simultaneous realtime players.

This is why Java4k is so good.

With 4k you can barely do anything really. You can't fit an entity system in to 4k. Well, you can, but there won't be much of a game. In restriction there is freedom. The less you have to work with, the more you can actually achieve. Restriction is liberating. With a pencil you can't be expected to paint the Sistine Chapel murals.

I implore you budding developers in here to lower your sights, stop wanking about, and get some prototyping done. For what it's worth, I've noticed that Android phones are an awesome introduction to limited programming environments. With miserable performance and somewhat limited APIs you are nicely restricted in your ambitions. You should be able to design some pretty neat games and finish them on Android.

My trusty flameproof pants are, of course, washed and donned, but in my arrogance I choose to ignore your derision, from atop my mound of cash, as I write my next game.

Cas Smiley

Offline kevglass

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2011-11-15 11:46:19 »

This.

Cheers,

Kev

Offline princec

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2011-11-15 11:55:24 »

I should probably also place this card upon the table: I don't even have time to write a 4k game Smiley

Cas Smiley

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Offline R.D.

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2011-11-15 11:57:07 »

Oh, finally someone said it Smiley

I love restrictions, because there are also pushing you to your limits and even open a new perspective on programming imho.
Offline Chromanoid

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2011-11-15 12:16:39 »

I agree with you. But I don't think finishing games has to do with the power of Java or entity systems. Overengineering is a problem, but you will find these traits everywhere where people have high ambitions and where they use a programming language like Java or C++. Users of GameMaker or similar systems finish personal projects with a much higher rate. In my experience failing and aborting projects is the result of megalomania, the reluctance to use shotcuts and libraries, lack of discipline, and the general will to do everything on your own. This is why you choose such a powerful language in the first place. I often failed for similar reasons. I am an active "member" of the german hobby game programming scene for 10 years and I think more projects would have been finished if they would have used Java instead of C++. The average hobby game programmer in my orbit starts with writing an engine and gives up in the middle of this. C++ with its many pitfalls comes on top of that.

The motto is "Write games not engines." and "Productivity over performance."! Java4k and similar contests help people to realize constraints that they normally ignore when developing in their free time.
Offline xsvenson
« Reply #5 - Posted 2011-11-15 12:28:04 »

I would love to spend my working hours on writing games:/ Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury (yet... I hope).
Else, I agree.

“The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet.” - Michael A. Jackson
Offline TheMatrix154

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2011-11-15 12:43:17 »

These are wise words, sir  Smiley
Don't waste time with too much theory, just get your hands dirty as quick as possible.

rob

Offline princec

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2011-11-15 12:50:15 »

Also, I'd been making proper games for 7 years entirely part-time before I released Revenge of the Titans, and now I'm "full time". You do not need to work full time on games to finish games, or even produce really good games. Kev Glass has never been full time. Markus made Minecraft while he was still working somewhere (he quit in fairly short order when he couldn't open the door for all the money being shoved through his letterbox).

Cas Smiley

Offline Gornova

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2011-11-15 12:51:14 »

I like this post, because open a good discussion, but for newbie start with J4K is too limited.
My experience was to build a pacman clone, some shooters and a platform. All this little games, all 2d!, helps me a lot. Again, I've found myself in building a little library and share it online. So I'm between: some "dirty" work and "theory" too.
It's right? It's wrong? I don't know!
For me game development with Java is an hobby, go and sell 4 million copies on Steam is not my main goal. What I want is build games.

For anyone play with Java, try other languages, see differences and experiment!!

I agree with main point: do one game game, from start to end, polish it and see how much is diffucult make it fun and not only a "demo"

edit: as programmer, I'm stuck with graphics. I'm not a pixel artist and I think Java development needs more tools to simplify graphics use. I'm not sure to be clear :-/

Blog | Last game Drone Defense 0.2 | In progress Drone Defense
Offline xsvenson
« Reply #9 - Posted 2011-11-15 13:03:26 »

Also, I'd been making proper games for 7 years entirely part-time before I released Revenge of the Titans, and now I'm "full time". You do not need to work full time on games to finish games, or even produce really good games. Kev Glass has never been full time. Markus made Minecraft while he was still working somewhere (he quit in fairly short order when he couldn't open the door for all the money being shoved through his letterbox).

Cas Smiley

It is a bit more complicated and depends on social and cultural aspects too. For me part-time is a no go and I have to divide my free time between different subjects and objectives. So I am managing as good as I am, but writing games fulltime, is still a small dream of mine.

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Offline nonnus29

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Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #10 - Posted 2011-11-15 14:49:48 »

Quote
It's massively powerful and flexible. So powerful and flexible that people generally tend to get confused about what they're actually trying to achieve

I call bullshit on this one; this isn't a java problem, this is a '95% of developers are self absorbed, incompetent wankers' problem.  Language has nothing to do with it.  As some one stated; it's endemic in c++ game dev as well.  Also, there's an experience component involved; you learn the futility of over complicated designs from experience.  No one can tell a doe eyed newb fresh from an OOP/Java course otherwise.

Quote
With 4k you can barely do anything really. You can't fit an entity system in to 4k. Well, you can, but there won't be much of a game. In restriction there is freedom. The less you have to work with, the more you can actually achieve. Restriction is liberating. With a pencil you can't be expected to paint the Sistine Chapel murals.

I agree with this 150%.  The j4k is awesome, it's akin to hacking assembler on a game boy color.

To those who say; just use libraries to shorten the path; there's a cost there as well.  Namely learnign api's you didn't create.  Plus where does it end?  At some point game development using 3rd party engines and frameworks turns into a content creation exercise.

Ten years huh?  So what now, another 10 years beating this drum or join the ranks of people shipping games for multiple platforms in c/c++/obj c?
Offline princec

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2011-11-15 14:59:58 »

10 happy years Smiley And I wouldn't call bullshit on that first part, as it's still actually true despite your expansion. But this is a Java games forum and the post is about Java games developers in here. Or Java not-games-developers as the case may be.

I agree about libraries. They are two-edged swords. Usually they're far bigger and more powerful than you need, don't quite work right anyway, generally unsupported, and difficult to learn. I'd stick with a very basic API and write a very basic library for yourself on top of that, and that's as much as you need to do.

If there's any advice I could really give about which library to learn, it's OpenGL, which will do you well everywhere. Know OpenGL and you know LWJGL.

<edit> I don't mind beating the drum, though I'm much quieter about it these days. The handful of absolute successes should probably be enough for you to know that the language or even platform are largely irrelevant to your success as a games developer. So: here we are in a Java gaming forum, about making games in Java. It can be done, and it's not even hard. In fact it's quite easy compared to C++.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #12 - Posted 2011-11-15 15:12:58 »

1) Have a realistic design: game first, code based on game.
2) Stub out a realistic schedule of tasks.  If you start to slip, step back and figure out why and what needs to be done about it.
3) Remember that it's pretty rare for "the code" to be all that important.  Game design, sound and art assets almost always make-or-break a playable game.  We programmers what to think "awesome code" is much more important that it really is.
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #13 - Posted 2011-11-15 15:14:50 »

Logged in just to reply to this (hi, Cas!)

Java gaming has never really taken off in all that time ... I am sort of surprised actually, given the sheer levels of success of various games that germinated here on JGO, that more attention never got focused on Java as a solution for gaming.

I can field this one. It's failed to take off because of the segments of game developers:
 * Professional teams who know how to get publishing contracts and who specialize in desktop apps (i.e. not console): they already know C++, have C++ toolsets, and no-one ran a marketing campaign to change their minds. Microsoft spends $$$ every year persuading those people to "stay where you are"
 * 1-person Indies hoping to make a breakout success: Flash gives you 10x the opportunity on websites (e.g. Kongregate is still Flash-only. Any *new* indie developer who does NOT use Kongregate is a fool).
 * (recently) Indie teams trying to make cash out of iPhone: No JVM in the OS, and no-one of sufficient size/wealth offering to provide one (including all the support required). Meanwhile: Unity. If you want to use Java, you use Unity instead, and write in C# - it's similar enough that java developers feel at home.

EDIT: missed one, the segment that are actually using Java:

 * 1-3 person "teams" that use Java but don't have a strong intent to finish / launch their game. Mostly doing it ("programming"/"developing") as a hobby - doesn't actually matter if they ever launch it. Although they tell themselves otherwise. If you don't believe me ... go speak to some Flash developers, find out how aggressive they are in *shipping* games, every single month (or more often than that)


Quote
A quick scan of the various topics that have come up over the last, oh, I dunno, year or so maybe, does point me in the direction of a theory or two as to why Java is failing to gain traction.

Firstly, this obsession with entity systems is...
...the chance of salvation for many of the small developers. For some definition of "entity system".

I'm inherently biased, but ... for MOST developers, the massive shortcuts in iteration time for game *design* that a good ES provides outweigh any and all downsides.

Forget performance; this lets you get 5 versions of your game design done in 5 days - instead of in 5 months.

Quote
I'll tell you this for free:

I've tried many different routes to achieve those things, and watched them be tried by other people's teams too. An ES - used sensibly - empowers you to do those things, and greatly increases the chances of you achieving them.

I feel you're shooting the messenger here: the problem is not the ES; rather, the ES merely exposes the real problem.

The problem is that most people doing java games don't actually want to finish their game. They make games for the joy of the "continuously writing code" part - not for the "shipping a final, working, version that other people play" part.

Quote
This is why Java4k is so good.

You should be able to design some pretty neat games and finish them on Android.

I recently wrote an Android game and started publishing the builds after every 2-3 hours of development. The first build was already playable (although completely boring) - because I used an ES. I've never had a game playable (from scratch) in less than about 12 hours previous to that.

So. The problem is not the (use of) ES. PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2011-11-15 15:25:09 »

I can field this one. It's failed to take off because of the segments of game developers:

TL;DR: Follow the money.

On the whole, the people who are genuinely interested in making a living out of game development find it easier / more profitable to use "things that are not Java".

Either they should use Java but no stakeholder/owner of Java has ever bothered to persuade them otherwise ... or they shouldn't use Java, because no stakeholder/owner of Java has provided a viable JVM for them to use.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Roquen
« Reply #15 - Posted 2011-11-15 15:41:02 »

WRT: Component based entities.  If you don't care about speeding up temporal access patterns in your code (and all the related issues), then why on earth would one use a component based system?  To my mind, in that case, one would be faking prototype based OO in a class-based OO language and pretty much getting the worst of both worlds.  (yeah, yeah I've said all of this before)  Really most people here don't need to look any further than a reasonably well designed data-driven model.  If one needs a little extra flexibility for scripting, simply add by name lookup of dynamically typed variables.
Offline Nyhm

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« Reply #16 - Posted 2011-11-15 15:44:25 »

On Java as a viable user-end platform: I have found that Java is an exceptional language, by developers and for developers. As soon as end users get involved, Java is a mess: JVM,JRE,JWS,JNLP are all things users are exposed to when faced with a Java application. I've tried to make Island Forge into a single-file, download and double-click experience, but it's ultimately impossible to hide the fact that you have a Java application. End users should not have to care what language/platform the software was developed under.

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Offline Nyhm

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« Reply #17 - Posted 2011-11-15 15:45:49 »

My game development experience writing Island Forge (client, server, everything, all from scratch in Java):

I (well, Potential Games LLC) have recently released Island Forge into open beta, and I encountered many of the issues raised in this discussion. Much of my code is over-engineered, just as princec and others have described. I've always wanted to create a MMO game engine, which is what I've done. I also have several other game designs I want to develop. Initially, I tried to make them all together (the one game to rule them all).

It took me a while, but I have learned (and continue to learn) to sharpen my focus. For me, the key to completing Island Forge was a mantra of simplicity (in game design and code). The game is so much more playable for it. It could even be simpler yet, and still be a fully-featured MMORPG. Think simple and playable.

Island Forge is a simple, yet fully playable MMORPG, offering many unique concepts and capabilities (and I'm very proud to have crafted it). Now, if I can just find people to play it, I might be able to get on with my next great game idea (I already have a really nice engine to run it on)...

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Offline Nyhm

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2011-11-15 16:19:38 »

On Entity Systems: I agree that the software philosophy is not important to the game, but I do insist on good software design. I was taught that OO design implied clumping together data and logic, and that all specialization was through inheritance. Then I read Design Patterns [Gamma, et al.].

I started Island Forge with a rather traditional approach, eventually eschewing inheritance from my game data model. (Inheritance still has a strong presence in Java development, but must only be used when the proper tool for the job.) Separating data objects from control logic greatly improved the overall maintainability (and sanity) of my 100k+ source lines of code.

An entity system is just a term for one (good, IMnsHO) approach to software design. I love to think about design patterns and frameworks, but in the end (actually, in the beginning), just come up with a consistent and clean model that allows you to implement your game. Don't worry so much about what it's called.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2011-11-15 16:29:30 »

On Java as a viable user-end platform: I have found that Java is an exceptional language, by developers and for developers. As soon as end users get involved, Java is a mess: JVM,JRE,JWS,JNLP are all things users are exposed to when faced with a Java application. I've tried to make Island Forge into a single-file, download and double-click experience, but it's ultimately impossible to hide the fact that you have a Java application. End users should not have to care what language/platform the software was developed under.
And indeed, my users don't. It's basically not a valid excuse! Our stuff "Just Works"TM on Windows and Mac OS. Remarkably it seems to work on Linux as well but they deserve all that happens to them. Only those inclined to pry know our games are written in Java.

@blah^3 - well, you know I'm fundamentally in agreement with you as to why Java is a general failure in the clientside games market. But I'm rather getting at why here, the nexus of Java games development, there's an awful lot of talk and not much trousers. The Flash developers have got it right. They concentrate on shipping, largely within the fairly strict confines of what is available in Flash to keep them quite focused.

I don't think I'll ever agree with you about entity systems. At least, not until I a) start writing in javascript and b) start making the next World of Warcraft. Where an entity system would make the job easier. To the rest of you: you have Entities, and each entity will be one of Player, Bullet, Alien, Powerup, and EnemyBullet. This is almost exactly a perfect fit for inheritance. Now get on with the rest of your game!

Cas Smiley

Offline Nyhm

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2011-11-15 16:51:51 »

And indeed, my users don't. It's basically not a valid excuse! Our stuff "Just Works"TM on Windows and Mac OS. Remarkably it seems to work on Linux as well but they deserve all that happens to them. Only those inclined to pry know our games are written in Java.

No excuses here! I'm a Java zealot, but deployment is a real issue, which I personally believe Sun/Oracle has not addressed adequately (except from their own perspective, to maintain brand awareness). That said, it has nothing to do with actually creating a good game (for which Java is a great language/platform).

I'd love some tips on how to better package and deploy my Java game(s) for end-users, so they don't need to know about Java. In short, I'm using launch4j to create a Windows exe (but the user is still responsible for installing a JRE).

I entirely agree with Cas, that Flash got it right. And while I'm on my soapbox, Java Applets should have been the platform of choice for all in-browser applications, but there are too many pitfalls getting it to work for end users.

I'll be looking for deployment topics here at JGO, and will post some of my questions and experiences... (I'm glad I found this place, lots of really interesting discussions.)

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Offline princec

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« Reply #21 - Posted 2011-11-15 16:54:28 »

Aha! Right:

Windows: embed your VM. Write C++ launcher. Make NSIS installer to install the lot. Do not under any circumstances rely on an existing JVM on the system. I will post some code, I think, in a bit.
MacOS: taken care of for you. Steal mine.
Linux: ditto. Ignore people who don't have Java already installed for now. Head pains, hair loss, etc. result from supporting Linux.

Cas Smiley

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #22 - Posted 2011-11-15 17:12:00 »

Firstly, this obsession with entity systems is the pustulent boil of a symptom which I used to call "object oriented wank". This is where people get so bogged down designing systems to scale to 1,000,000 simultaneous players they never actually sit down and write a bloody game. This is probably Java's greatest weakness and of course its greatest strength. It's massively powerful and flexible. So powerful and flexible that people generally tend to get confused about what they're actually trying to achieve, what they're capable of achieving, why they're doing it, and who gives a shit.

I'll tell you this for free: an entity system will not get you on Steam. It will not make your code easier to understand. It will not finish your game for you. It is not as easy to understand as just having Some Entities In An ArrayList that all extend a base Entity class.
I agree that people find architectural problems in their code, and then invest time trying to solve them (such as building an Entity component system). But I disagree that they do this because Java is flexible. The reason they cannot solve these problems easily is because Java is not flexible, and so they have to build a framework to allow them to do this.

In a flexible language no framework would be needed.

Offline Nyhm

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2011-11-15 17:36:30 »

Aha! Right:

Windows: embed your VM. Write C++ launcher. Make NSIS installer to install the lot. Do not under any circumstances rely on an existing JVM on the system. I will post some code, I think, in a bit.
MacOS: taken care of for you. Steal mine.
Linux: ditto. Ignore people who don't have Java already installed for now. Head pains, hair loss, etc. result from supporting Linux.

Cas Smiley

Thanks for this summary, Cas. I look forward more details (in another topic, I presume). I'm an experienced Java application developer, but I admit my inexperience at this topic (and others, to be sure).

I loath installers. (Aside: If I were to design an OS, applications would be single files. Mac almost gets it.) Overall, I wish I could just compile a single "executable" for each platform and truly embed a JVM. That is, the JVM would be part of the executable (not something that is installed separately). Sun/Oracle's licensing is not compatible with this, but maybe there is some hope from the OpenJDK project.

I see that you are providing a Revenge of the Titans .deb for Linux users. I'll have to see how that goes under Ubuntu (yes, I'm one of those).

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Offline ShannonSmith
« Reply #24 - Posted 2011-11-15 17:57:57 »

I don't think the people trying to perfect their entity systems were ever going to be able to make a fun game. Making a fun game is really hard and takes a very specific skill set that is very rare. If you don't have all the skills needed (most of which can't be learned), you will fail unless you can team up with someone with a complementary skill.

I think the reason flash is so much more successful is many more artists are attracted to that platform. Artists naturally have an appreciation for look and feel which is the biggest thing lacking in the Java Dev community. I think this innate sense of feel is so much more important than people realize because the ability to analyze the psychological impact at a graphical level extends down into the feel of the game-play which is really hard to get right if you don't have a feel for it.
Offline dishmoth
« Reply #25 - Posted 2011-11-15 18:06:34 »

Plus where does it end?  At some point game development using 3rd party engines and frameworks turns into a content creation exercise.

Maybe that's another way of viewing this topic:
Lots of coding and a little bit of content creation = Game development as a hobby.
Lots of content creation and a little bit of coding = Game development for a paying audience.

Offline Nyhm

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2011-11-15 18:40:25 »

Maybe that's another way of viewing this topic:
Lots of coding and a little bit of content creation = Game development as a hobby.
Lots of content creation and a little bit of coding = Game development for a paying audience.

Hey, that's pretty good, and very insightful. What do you think of this formula:

Lots of coding + player created content = The next big thing = Island Forge!

* crosses fingers *

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Offline nsigma
« Reply #27 - Posted 2011-11-15 18:57:37 »

Well, as some of you know, I'm not a games developer as such, but a (hiss, spit!  Wink ) artist.  Still it's all meant to be interactive and fun, and it uses lots of the same tech.  In general I'd second (or twenty-second!  Smiley ) Cas's point.  Just get out there and create something goddammit!  And I mean something that'll impress non-coders.  Restraints are good for you and your creativity - set yourself some deadlines and go and show people summat - just make sure they're people who think good Java is a decent cup of coffee.   Grin

Windows: embed your VM. Write C++ launcher. Make NSIS installer to install the lot. Do not under any circumstances rely on an existing JVM on the system. I will post some code, I think, in a bit.
MacOS: taken care of for you. Steal mine.
Linux: ditto. Ignore people who don't have Java already installed for now. Head pains, hair loss, etc. result from supporting Linux.

More people around here should evaluate using the runtime container from the NetBeans platform.  Great platform for deployment.  Cross platform and highly customizable installers / launchers (it is possible to include an embedded JVM with a bit of work), along with a decent module system, good native loading mechanism, and much more besides.

Lots of coding + player created content = The next big thing = Island Forge!

* crosses fingers *

Lots of posting about Island Forge + lots of people around here who aren't US resident = next big thing on my spam filter!  Tongue

I'm joking - just!

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Cero
« Reply #28 - Posted 2011-11-15 19:14:56 »

you can never expect java is installed, and I want to do everything I can to hide it's java

people even now message notch saying "isnt it too slow?" - all java 1.0 opinions are never going to die

when I made a mini game recently, Arcane Nebula, I included a private VM of course
What you can also do is change the java.exe name to Gamebla.exe so in the task manager too it wont show java

but I'm gonna need that mac stuff from Cas eventually - never done anything on a mac, so I dont even now what kind of .exe equivalents there are

Offline Nyhm

Senior Devvie


Medals: 3
Projects: 1


Island Forge


« Reply #29 - Posted 2011-11-15 19:25:23 »

Lots of posting about Island Forge + lots of people around here who aren't US resident = next big thing on my spam filter!  Tongue

I'm joking - just!

Ha! Sorry to be overzealous in mentioning my first game title (just over excited to actually have one). I admit, I arrived here in my search for players, but I'm sticking around for the great discussions.

Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore!
Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
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