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Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #180 - Posted 2012-06-24 03:29:10 »

TL;DR the last 20-30 or so posts......all I can say is:

YOU GUYS ARE FREAKING OLD! I'm the new generation so listen to me: Windows 7 FTW. Thank you very much.

OK, generation David Spade is a Windows fan Smiley

Anecdotally, on college campus, both Apple products and Linux seem unusually popular...
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 202



« Reply #181 - Posted 2012-06-24 04:13:50 »

Ironically, David Spade is almost 48 years old.
Offline davedes
« Reply #182 - Posted 2012-06-24 07:07:20 »

TL;DR the last 20-30 or so posts......all I can say is:

YOU GUYS ARE FREAKING OLD! I'm the new generation so listen to me: Windows 7 FTW. Thank you very much.
Can't speak for high schools but Mac is the #1 choice in my uni by far.

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Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #183 - Posted 2012-06-24 09:08:58 »

Nah, see, fundamentally I'm in the right line of work because I've stumbled across a toolchain and way of working that makes my life really easy. I've been professionally coding for a shade under 20 years now and it is a total waste of my life, which would otherwise be spent riding motorbikes and having fun.

That's fine for us but just don't post some stupid statements about Linux like...

I use Windows because everything works, and I can configure the few things that need configuring with idiot-proof GUIs, and I put up with the shite that it brings to the table simply because there's nothing else out there that fixes it.

or...

The mere mention of a commandline makes me groan. GUIs guide me in every step and provide me with context at every twitch of the mouse. The commandline provides me with absolutely nothing. I don't want to learn any more than is absolutely necessary because my tiny brain is, well, full. Never mind me, though. Think about the other 2 billion computer users and try to sell the concept of iptables and ufw to them versus Windows Firewall. Arrgh. Actually come up with a sales pitch for my mum, not me. She's the one you really need to convince.

1. As already said, ca. 20 times, you are not forced to use a GUI, GUI is an option which you have almost always. Of course there is the command line but that's because Linux is also a server OS which can be used without a GUI. You know, you can save some resources when you kick some unused stuff. And a GUI is not necessary on a server...
2. You have front ends for iptables: firehol, Firestarter, guidedog, kmyfirewall, pyroman, shorewall. Enough? You just showed again that you have no idea what Linux is and how it works.
3. You also have a front end for ufw: Gufw http://gufw.tuxfamily.org/

The menubar might be good in Linux, but I've got the latest Google Chrome on Linux and it doesn't use the menubar. With such inconsistency, it doesn't help. This is Chrome, the most used browser, not some random software. If you can't expect and get everyone to adopt it, then it doesn't work. The menubar is also very fiddly - it sometimes works because 1/2 the time it's used for something else - only when you hover you get the options you need.

1. You just need to open your eyes. Right click on the window bar of Chrome and select the last option with native window and title bar.
2. If you don't like it, you can uninstall the menu bar. As I said, the menu bar was created to save some vertical space on 16:9 screens with low resolutions. For example. In Windows you need ca. 50px for the panel, 25px the title bar and 25px for the window. So you need 100px, in Ubuntu you just need 25px. So 100px of for example 768px which lets you only 660px to work, against 740px in Ubuntu. The global menu is nice especially on notebooks. And if you have a big screen you can deactivate it.

unzip file.zip is arcane wizardry. I downloaded a file then I just want to unzip it. In Windows, you download from your browser, open in the folder and press unzip. I don't want to work out how to do it. This applies to every action not just unzip. Sure unzip might be simple, but there are lot of complicated ones.

You haven't read anything. You can do this in Ubuntu or almost every other distribution too. Right click on file, "Extract here", ready. Out of the box.

I tried to install amsn on Linux Mint and it says libgstfarsight0.10.0-0 >=0 or something is not satisfiable. I double clicked to install. I got the latest version. What in the world is that? The messages in Linux just don't make sense to humans. How about something like a Windows version of "You're missing "component x" please download from "here" or whatever". Up to now everyone would be bashing me about being not technical Smiley I typed in apt-get install lib... guess what? It says this lib is an older version and has been released by libgstream... but I still can't install amsn. Linux' whole crap on this depends on this lib and this depends on this lib is annoying to the max. Just bundle it as part of the application. Install should install amen. Has that ever happened in Windows? Maybe directx or .net framework, but the messages are meaningful and there are a few components at max, no 999999999.

amsn is not available for Ubuntu anymore, so you probably downloaded an older package and it's also not available for 64bit. The latest package you can find is in Oneiric. You should blame amsn devs for that. They are probably like you, they poop on Linux. Where did you get the package? The easiest solution would be Empathy or Pidgin. Empathy is preinstalled and can handle more than MSN.

This is personal maybe, but the UI in Linux is ugly. I think KDE is better, but GNOME and variants, including Unity, MATE, Cinnamon are. Like Riven says, you can tell which 'tab' has context because it looks distinctly pressed etc, but the whole Linux UI is almost 1 color that you can't tell what's what.

Yep, that's personal.

Why am I using Linux? Like Cas, I'm writing Java Applications too - I'm just using Linux to test to make sure my application works. Until they can do something right I don't want to switch over to Linux. I downloaded AMD's driver from AMD's site. Windows = double click install. What do you do in Linux? Double click opens it up in a text editor. Buhahaha. I try to run it with ./<filename> - still fails. I had to look it up. No, I know how to code, but I don't want to have to remember it. If I stop using Windows for years and come back to it, at most I'll be looking for where the button is. In the world of Linux, you have to try to look for a command, but you have no idea where to look for it. No, don't talk about MAN, man pages are the most unreadable things in history man. Most of the time after I did a man on a command, I had to man the man explanation.

Why did you download the drivers? They are already in the repository. You can activate them easily in the system settings under "Additional drivers", it's just one click!

Installed latest ubuntu, installed gnome because unity sucks.

And why?

All themes have close, maximize and minimize buttons on the left.
Cant get them to go to the right.

Actually Gnome has buttons on the right. You probably installed Gnome-Classic. And of course you can move them to the right. You can do this in gconf although it's a little tricky. Hey, but at least you can use GUI for that. Cheesy http://lifehacker.com/5500577/move-ubuntus-window-buttons-back-to-the-right

Cant install new themes via console packages arent found.

What packages?

I shouldnt have to install themes by console anyway - there should be a button with "browse more themes here" which shows a gallery, which applies the selected theme WITH ONE CLICK.
This is exactly what the Opera Theme/Skin gallery does.

You get that for example with KDE. Installing themes with Ubuntu requires few manual steps, just look on DevianArt for themes and follow the installation instructions. An example: http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/gallery/?set=24128075&offset=48#/d34mspx

Giving up.

No video? Grin
Offline nsigma
« Reply #184 - Posted 2012-06-24 09:35:25 »

Arrgh. Actually come up with a sales pitch for my mum, not me. She's the one you really need to convince.

Actually, if we mean generic family member who knows little about computers and wants you to offer free tech support (one day I'm going to get around to setting up a premium phone line for family!  Wink ), then I don't think that's a hard sell.  From my experience I spend far less time helping those on Linux than on Windows.

The problem around here is those people with a strong Windows mindset (no, people, we do not install random shite we've found on the interwebs!  Wink ).  I've spent over 15 years working with Windows, and 10 with Linux.  Unless you're willing to take the time to learn the differences then you're always going to think one is inferior.  No OS is free, and the biggest investment is time.  Ubuntu is now my primary OS, but if you think I spend my day hacking text files or fiddling with things on the CLI (unless I want to), you're very much mistaken.  I've experienced far more driver and DLL hell on Windows than I ever have on Linux.  I'm with Cas on one thing - I want an easy life - I just find that now Linux is far simpler and more productive for me.


Well, judging from all his issues with getting GStreamer to work - video ain't his strong point!  Tongue

Seriously, though, Cero - installing an OS, ripping out half of it, complaining about the window icons (they're on the left on OSX too, and actually after 10min of adjusting muscle memory it makes more sense), and then complaining that you can't install themes because you haven't RTFM'd.  Seriously, try using it for a while not fiddling with it!  Or don't, just don't think that that gives you any perspective on what it's actually like to work with.

YOU GUYS ARE FREAKING OLD! I'm the new generation so listen to me: Windows 7 FTW. Thank you very much.

Aah, but you are young.  I haven't got the time to wait around for it.  Seriously, bring back XP, all is forgiven.  W7 is like walking through mud in comparison to Ubuntu on my current laptop.

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Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #185 - Posted 2012-06-24 10:24:20 »

From my experience I spend far less time helping those on Linux than on Windows.

Same here. Installed this for some family members because I was tired of all the calls. No complains so far. Actually they would probably complain if they have to go back.

The problem around here is those people with a strong Windows mindset (no, people, we do not install random shite we've found on the interwebs!  Wink ).  I've spent over 15 years working with Windows, and 10 with Linux.  Unless you're willing to take the time to learn the differences then you're always going to think one is inferior.  No OS is free, and the biggest investment is time.  Ubuntu is now my primary OS, but if you think I spend my day hacking text files or fiddling with things on the CLI (unless I want to), you're very much mistaken.  I've experienced far more driver and DLL hell on Windows than I ever have on Linux.  I'm with Cas on one thing - I want an easy life - I just find that now Linux is far simpler and more productive for me.

Sign. I gave Cero the advice to get used to Linux before he makes his video. He didn't follow it. Probably spent 30 mins trying it. He hasn't seen Windows, so he canceled his try. Now there is one person more who didn't like Linux because the window buttons are on the left and he couldn't change it. Cheesy He is one of the persons (together with princec) who is used to Windows and expects others OSs to work this way or the other OS should at least read his minds. I would love to see them working with Win 8 and newer. They will probably never change Win 7. Cheesy
Offline concerto49

Junior Member





« Reply #186 - Posted 2012-06-24 10:46:31 »

1. As already said, ca. 20 times, you are not forced to use a GUI, GUI is an option which you have almost always. Of course there is the command line but that's because Linux is also a server OS which can be used without a GUI. You know, you can save some resources when you kick some unused stuff. And a GUI is not necessary on a server...
2. You have front ends for iptables: firehol, Firestarter, guidedog, kmyfirewall, pyroman, shorewall. Enough? You just showed again that you have no idea what Linux is and how it works.
3. You also have a front end for ufw: Gufw http://gufw.tuxfamily.org/

However, I installed Ubuntu latest to give that a try instead of Linux Mint (yes, I'm going to try all the distros to give it benefit of doubt so please don't just bash me and say I'm not trying).

In Ubuntu with Unity, I could NOT find the command line anywhere - not that I didn't want to. It wasn't in the usual simple Linux places, e.g. right click, searching the dash etc, I eventually gave up.

1. You just need to open your eyes. Right click on the window bar of Chrome and select the last option with native window and title bar.
2. If you don't like it, you can uninstall the menu bar. As I said, the menu bar was created to save some vertical space on 16:9 screens with low resolutions. For example. In Windows you need ca. 50px for the panel, 25px the title bar and 25px for the window. So you need 100px, in Ubuntu you just need 25px. So 100px of for example 768px which lets you only 660px to work, against 740px in Ubuntu. The global menu is nice especially on notebooks. And if you have a big screen you can deactivate it.

See, the issue is that every application I see by default is integrated with that system menubar - chrome isn't. Ok, there might be an option, but that already makes it not user friendly. Do you know why good set of defaults is very important to UX design? You should only change behaviour if you need to change something that's NOT the norm - when everyone else uses menubar and chrome doesn't, something's wrong.

You haven't read anything. You can do this in Ubuntu or almost every other distribution too. Right click on file, "Extract here", ready. Out of the box.

Ok, that was just a bad example, but a lot of things don't work. Neither does it give me more options, e.g. in 7z, extract to New Folder, etc etc all from the right click context menu. Not good enough. And yes, I do know how to use the command line. I use the command line in managing linux servers and there is NO GUI. So for a change, when using it on a desktop, I wanted to use the GUI and it should be do-able that way.

amsn is not available for Ubuntu anymore, so you probably downloaded an older package and it's also not available for 64bit. The latest package you can find is in Oneiric. You should blame amsn devs for that. They are probably like you, they poop on Linux. Where did you get the package? The easiest solution would be Empathy or Pidgin. Empathy is preinstalled and can handle more than MSN.

Issue again. So many Linux distributions, so many variations. So much crap to support. It should be Windows, Linux, OS X, etc... not <insert 2000 versions of Linux>. The amsn UI is already horrible compared to Windows MSN. I want something that works nicely with all the features thanks. Just like I want photoshop not GIMP.

Why did you download the drivers? They are already in the repository. You can activate them easily in the system settings under "Additional drivers", it's just one click!

There were 2 software managers on Linux Mint when I tried it. Which 1 do I use? Which repository do I look at? The App Store on OSX makes sense - incredibly simple - on Windows you go to websites and download install, simple enough. What do you do in Linux? And guess, what it doesn't install together - all you get is dependency after dependency or related stuff you have to find but you won't know. I want it all to make sense in 1 place, e.g. if I search for Xen, I don't have to then look for Xen Tools and I might not know Xen Tools exist or what it even is.

Installed latest ubuntu, installed gnome because unity sucks.

I agree that Unity sucks. They tried to copy OSX but it's way not as polished.

Actually Gnome has buttons on the right. You probably installed Gnome-Classic. And of course you can move them to the right. You can do this in gconf although it's a little tricky. Hey, but at least you can use GUI for that. Cheesy http://lifehacker.com/5500577/move-ubuntus-window-buttons-back-to-the-right

We don't want tricks. We want it to just work or easily configurable. Not 200 hops to do something simple. Left/Right... simple.

Edit:

The problem around here is those people with a strong Windows mindset (no, people, we do not install random shite we've found on the interwebs!  Wink ).  I've spent over 15 years working with Windows, and 10 with Linux.  Unless you're willing to take the time to learn the differences then you're always going to think one is inferior.  No OS is free, and the biggest investment is time.  Ubuntu is now my primary OS, but if you think I spend my day hacking text files or fiddling with things on the CLI (unless I want to), you're very much mistaken.  I've experienced far more driver and DLL hell on Windows than I ever have on Linux.  I'm with Cas on one thing - I want an easy life - I just find that now Linux is far simpler and more productive for me.

Precisely incorrect. I've used OS X and Windows and they're both fine. It's Linux that's the issue. A better OS should be better for new users, even if they come from Windows or OS X. Strictly better means it does the same thing, just better. That's 1 of the issues with Linux - it doesn't think about it from the users' perspective.

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Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #187 - Posted 2012-06-24 11:25:56 »

Issue again. So many Linux distributions, so many variations. So much crap to support. It should be Windows, Linux, OS X, etc... not <insert 2000 versions of Linux>.

I don't want this to become a 'bash linux' thread, but this was always the problem I'd hit when trying to use linux. Everything 'works' but only in particular flavours or versions. It usually goes something like this:

me: "I want a desktop linux distro"
beard 1: "Use distro X"
me: "This doesn't support my wifi card"
beard 2: "You should use distro Y, it has better hardware support"
me: "Now my display is no longer hardware accelerated"
beard 3: "Install compatibility layer A"
me: "Now xvfb no longer works"
beard 3: "You can't do that with kernel N, you need kernel N+1"
me: "distro Y is only available for kernel N"
beard 4: "install distro Z"
me: "no"
beard 4: "Ok, install gcc and these other hundred dependencies, then recompile your kernel"
me: "Now my mouse is laggy, and I can't select resolutions above 800x600"
beard 5: "Yeah, that's a bug in the latest kernel. Try going back to kernel N-1"
me: "gnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn."

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Offline Cero
« Reply #188 - Posted 2012-06-24 11:54:09 »

I would love to see them working with Win 8 and newer. They will probably never change Win 7. Cheesy

I hope you realize that windows 8 will look the same. Metro is just a tablet gimmick.
Well I have to configure Win 7 too when I reinstall - like disable grouping and everything related to aero... and the startmenu

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #189 - Posted 2012-06-24 12:51:14 »

In Ubuntu with Unity, I could NOT find the command line anywhere - not that I didn't want to. It wasn't in the usual simple Linux places, e.g. right click, searching the dash etc, I eventually gave up.

Super-Button or click on Dash, type "ter" or "term" or "termi" or "termin" or "termina" or "terminal", Enter. Or just navigate with the mouse in the Ubuntu-Dash (click for that on Application-Lens, then let you show all the installed apps and choose the terminal). Or press ctrl-alt-t. Or press Alt-F2 and type "terminal". Or open terminal and type "terminal". Or press ctrl+alt+f1 and login... Cheesy

Actually it's even an example that terminal (e.g. command line) is not important in a distribution, it's just an additional tool like many others.

See, the issue is that every application I see by default is integrated with that system menubar - chrome isn't. Ok, there might be an option, but that already makes it not user friendly. Do you know why good set of defaults is very important to UX design? You should only change behaviour if you need to change something that's NOT the norm - when everyone else uses menubar and chrome doesn't, something's wrong.

You have the same "problem" with Windows too. How is it OS' fault if an app is not consistent by default? As I said, in case of Chrome or Chromium you can change it by 2 clicks. And ask Google why they do that.

Ok, that was just a bad example, but a lot of things don't work. Neither does it give me more options, e.g. in 7z, extract to New Folder, etc etc all from the right click context menu. Not good enough. And yes, I do know how to use the command line. I use the command line in managing linux servers and there is NO GUI. So for a change, when using it on a desktop, I wanted to use the GUI and it should be do-able that way.

7z is proprietary, it can't be installed by default. There is a thing called "license", it shows you what you can do and what not. 7z cannot be installed by default, same goes for rar (or codecs, fonts etc.), but you can install them really fast in the repository.
Extract to new folder: There are 3 things. 1. Nautilus extracts everything to a new folder if the archive contains a folder or more than 2 files/folders. 2. If you always want a folder and to name this folder, double click on the archive and let it extract to a folder. It's a double click more. I don't see why it's not enough. 3. Nautilus is expandable with scripts, you can add the option by yourself: http://khol1s.blogspot.de/2010/10/nautilus-script-extract-to-folder.html I think the option is not there to keep the menu clean, it has already 15 options by default.

Issue again. So many Linux distributions, so many variations. So much crap to support. It should be Windows, Linux, OS X, etc... not <insert 2000 versions of Linux>. The amsn UI is already horrible compared to Windows MSN. I want something that works nicely with all the features thanks. Just like I want photoshop not GIMP.

That's not true. There are only two important package systems, deb and rpm, and only few important distributions, Debian, Ubuntu, Mint (deb based) and OpenSuse, RedHat, Fedora (rpm based). With just two packages you will cover 90% of Linux users. For other distributions you can compile the software and compress it, such distributions like Arch Linux will put the files to their repository by themselves.

If you don't like amsn, why did you want it? Take Empathy, it's installed by default and can be used for MSN, ICQ, Google Talk, Facebook etc.

There were 2 software managers on Linux Mint when I tried it. Which 1 do I use? Which repository do I look at? The App Store on OSX makes sense - incredibly simple - on Windows you go to websites and download install, simple enough. What do you do in Linux? And guess, what it doesn't install together - all you get is dependency after dependency or related stuff you have to find but you won't know. I want it all to make sense in 1 place, e.g. if I search for Xen, I don't have to then look for Xen Tools and I might not know Xen Tools exist or what it even is.

What two software managers? I don't know Mint. Do you mean the Software Center and Synaptic? It doesn't matter which one you take because it's the same repository. They are just GUI front ends. Software Center is more nooby and easy to handle (with screenshots, paid apps, and user reviews) but not powerfull, Synaptic is powerfull with more options (for example you can freeze packages so that they can't be updated) but it's not nooby-like.

Dependencies are actually a positive argument, to keep the OS clean you install a dependency only once and then it can be used by multiple applications. With the Windows approach you could install the same dependency 1000 times. Software managers like Synaptic or apt-get can resolve dependencies really fast and easy, you just need to confirm that you want them. And you want them if you want an application. You will only get dependency problems if a package is too old or too new (for example when you are using an older distro version and want to install a up-to-date package manually), but that's not usual.

I agree that Unity sucks. They tried to copy OSX but it's way not as polished.

And why does it suck? I'm really interested.

For me it's good. The only thing I don't like is the handling of multiple windows of the same app. Everything else is fine. I can open apps really fast, I can switch windows really fast, Unity saves vertical space for me and the global menu is good (with all the usefull options on top).

We don't want tricks. We want it to just work or easily configurable. Not 200 hops to do something simple. Left/Right... simple.

Aha and why that? Because Windows and Mac OS have this options? If so, show me this. Show me an option where I can switch the position of the buttons. Right, you can't at all.

In Unity it's not meant to be able to switch the positions but you still can do it, even if it's an easy workaround.

I hope you realize that windows 8 will look the same. Metro is just a tablet gimmick.

Not in my world. Metro is by default everywhere not only on tablets. And I'm pretty sure that Win 9 or 10 will remove the old desktop completely although there will be probably a virtual machine to start an old session (like the XP session in Win 7 Pro).
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Offline concerto49

Junior Member





« Reply #190 - Posted 2012-06-24 13:41:10 »

I just tried installing Fedora 17. Guess what? It allows me to tick applications to add, but guess what again, I ticked the ones I want and it spits out a warning saying dependencies required - it doesn't automatically help me fix this, only ask me to go back. I don't know what to tick - it's not obvious. I spent ages trying to tick/untick failing.

Windows doesn't install 2000 versions. You only have 1 version of directx / Java / .Net, but bundling IS an OPTION, just like Linux. You can still have abc1.0 vs abc2.0.

Besides, I don't care. I just want the damn thing to install and I can't. No point defending it. It's utter fail. I give up when I can't even install.

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #191 - Posted 2012-06-24 14:09:22 »

Well it seems like autoconf -> GNU makefiles still dominates open source.  If your being objective about it...it really is an antiquated pile of poop.  But a lot of common stuff in computer science falls in the same category.  The best you can really say is that it sorta-works.

Well. Makefiles are easy to use, that's for sure, so you will see them even in 20 years. But it's difficult to create them if you don't have any experience. I'm not a fan of creating them, I actually prefer CMAKE which is easier to setup and you can get it to work on every OS.
Hell I hope they're dead and buried in 20 years outside of compiling up legacy software (like a old roguelike or something).  But let's not confuse people cmake is a make-make system so an autoconf replacement..which is a very good thing as it was a pile of crap from day one.  Now you could use cmake as a make-system, but it would have the exact same architecture problems as gmake.

WRT: gmake.  Sure it's easy to use, sure they're easy to write and yes the DSL is quite powerful.  It's also a stinking pile of antiqued design that should die.  The problem is it works by spawning processes.  This boils down to a very-high percentage to almost all the time of a build is spawning, initializing and shutdown processes.  I'm sure a fair number of us have built GCC from source...and GCC is not a big project (it has to build itself 3 times though).  If you never have and get the urge, use a secondary machine...start the build process right before quitting for the day...trust me on this.

Eclipse is very fast at compiling (from clean) not because of the awesome speed of its compiler (it actually has a huge amount of extra bells-and-whistles that drastically slow it down) but because it works in a single process.  Likewise for cmake as a make-make system.

I quite like the 1969 UNIX model for doing things for which they still work well.  But otherwise...let's move on to slightly more modern designs please.
Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #192 - Posted 2012-06-24 14:18:47 »

I just tried installing Fedora 17. Guess what? It allows me to tick applications to add, but guess what again, I ticked the ones I want and it spits out a warning saying dependencies required - it doesn't automatically help me fix this, only ask me to go back. I don't know what to tick - it's not obvious. I spent ages trying to tick/untick failing.

Windows doesn't install 2000 versions. You only have 1 version of directx / Java / .Net, but bundling IS an OPTION, just like Linux. You can still have abc1.0 vs abc2.0.

Besides, I don't care. I just want the damn thing to install and I can't. No point defending it. It's utter fail. I give up when I can't even install.

Post an image of the "tick" and the warning. I'm wondering what has to go wrong during the installation process so that you can't move on, actually it must be well tested.

I said, you can install 1000 times the same dependency, it's really possible. For example Qt, so many apps are using it but how often have you installed Qt run libs? Probably never, that's because apps bundle them together with the core app.

You also can have abc1.0 and abc2.0 on Linux. Qt is a good example again, you can find Qt4 and Qt3 in the repository. Same thing for Java, Java 6 and 7 are available in the repository, to stay on topic of this forums. Cheesy
Offline nsigma
« Reply #193 - Posted 2012-06-24 14:49:00 »

The problem around here is those people with a strong Windows mindset (no, people, we do not install random shite we've found on the interwebs!  Wink ).  I've spent over 15 years working with Windows, and 10 with Linux.  Unless you're willing to take the time to learn the differences then you're always going to think one is inferior.  No OS is free, and the biggest investment is time.  Ubuntu is now my primary OS, but if you think I spend my day hacking text files or fiddling with things on the CLI (unless I want to), you're very much mistaken.  I've experienced far more driver and DLL hell on Windows than I ever have on Linux.  I'm with Cas on one thing - I want an easy life - I just find that now Linux is far simpler and more productive for me.

Precisely incorrect. I've used OS X and Windows and they're both fine. It's Linux that's the issue. A better OS should be better for new users, even if they come from Windows or OS X.

Huh?  What's "precisely incorrect"?  The only thing there that isn't personal experience is the assertion that using an operating system takes time to learn!  You really arguing with that?  Roll Eyes  The thing is, if you transition to any OS it's going to take time to learn, and if you switch from something else there's also a load of stuff you have to unlearn - sometimes that's actually harder.  I remember moving to Win 95 having used RiscOS for years and wondering WTF they'd done with the drag'n'drop metaphor!  Smiley  I personally now find OSX confusing as hell, but I'm also not going to criticise because I know I haven't used it enough.  The problem with us techies (I'm as guilty) is we don't like admitting we might be a newbie at something and might need to RTFM.  There's a lot of assertions on this thread that can be refuted with 5 min reading.

Strictly better means it does the same thing, just better.

Jesus, I hope there's a bit more to it than that!   Shocked

That's 1 of the issues with Linux - it doesn't think about it from the users' perspective.

Up to a few years back, I'd have agreed with you.  There's a huge amount of work going in to Linux UX now, be it Ubuntu, Mint, Android, etc., and lots of work on user testing.

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Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #194 - Posted 2012-06-24 15:10:59 »

Well, I wouldn't say that the only dev of Mint tests his OS with some testers. Cheesy But he is actually building the OS so that Windows users can change easily. The OS does looks and feels like Windows a little.

Ubuntu has some real user tests, but as I remember they only have testers who have never used an OS or not really extensive.

Btw, I installed Fedora 17 in a virtual machine in about 15min. I think every child who can read could do it. Cheesy There were only 3 or 4 options to choose and all of them were the language, keyboard layout, some names, login and partitioning. An installation couldn't be easier.
Offline Cero
« Reply #195 - Posted 2012-06-24 15:52:26 »



I'm outta here.

Offline ra4king

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« Reply #196 - Posted 2012-06-24 17:46:26 »

Genius!

TL;DR the last 20-30 or so posts......all I can say is:

YOU GUYS ARE FREAKING OLD! I'm the new generation so listen to me: Windows 7 FTW. Thank you very much.
Can't speak for high schools but Mac is the #1 choice in my uni by far.
Must be why they can't pay their tuition debts Grin

Offline princec

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« Reply #197 - Posted 2012-06-24 21:28:46 »

Well, I wouldn't say that the only dev of Mint tests his OS with some testers. Cheesy But he is actually building the OS so that Windows users can change easily. The OS does looks and feels like Windows a little.

Ubuntu has some real user tests, but as I remember they only have testers who have never used an OS or not really extensive.

Btw, I installed Fedora 17 in a virtual machine in about 15min. I think every child who can read could do it. Cheesy There were only 3 or 4 options to choose and all of them were the language, keyboard layout, some names, login and partitioning. An installation couldn't be easier.
Again... partitioning. How do you even remotely explain to my mum what partitioning is? All that stuff's gotta go, forever, for consumer desktops. Once all the "how it works" is totally hidden away, the commandline is utterly unneeded, and everything works the same way across all versions of Linux - that is, the same software, the same GUI, and so on - then it'll be a massive success, just like Windows and Mac OS have been. And this is why it can never really succeed - because it will never have those features, because of its basic philosophy.

Still, it's a great base upon which to dabble.

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
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« Reply #198 - Posted 2012-06-24 21:59:02 »

Again... partitioning. How do you even remotely explain to my mum what partitioning is?
Although I agree it has to go, it's a mandatory step of the Windows installing procedure too.

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Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #199 - Posted 2012-06-24 22:22:39 »

Although I agree it has to go, it's a mandatory step of the Windows installing procedure too.

Right.

All that stuff's gotta go, forever, for consumer desktops. Once all the "how it works" is totally hidden away, the commandline is utterly unneeded, and everything works the same way across all versions of Linux - that is, the same software, the same GUI, and so on..

This is not gonna happen. The choice makes Linux. Command line is a useful tool and not necessary already, as I wrote ca. 20 times. Who was it who had problems finding it on Ubuntu? Cheesy I also gave some answers to you with iptables, ufw, file roller etc.

... then it'll be a massive success, just like Windows and Mac OS have been. And this is why it can never really succeed - because it will never have those features, because of its basic philosophy.

No. Let us think a little. When you go to a computer store, which OS do you find preinstalled on almost every PC or notebook? Right! Windows. You can also buy hardware with Mac OS. surprising which OS is installed there...

You can find the same answer here from Linus Torvalds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MShbP3OpASA Go to 23:45 in the video.

Android is a big access because if you buy a phone you can find Android preinstalled there. If you buy a PC you find usually Windows or Mac OS (if its Apple hardware). And normal PC users don't want to change their OS, because for them the OS is part of a PC and they don't know anything about other OSs or they just don't want to install another OS because they don't know how to do it. So companies like Canonical need to became partners of hardware manufacturers to sell good hardware with Ubuntu or something else on it. This is really difficult because for hardware manufacturers like Dell this could end as a disaster for many reasons. Not really a simple task...
Offline Lucas_F98

Senior Newbie





« Reply #200 - Posted 2012-06-24 22:29:25 »

Linux,

Just my 2 cents Smiley
Offline princec

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« Reply #201 - Posted 2012-06-24 22:30:25 »

Actually Windows 7 setup considers partition management as an advanced task so you need to click the Drive options (advanced) link to make those options available. Apparently.

@ontaiwolf - your answers just completely cement my position on the matter but yet you can't still can't see it :/ Where there is choice, there is confusion, there is incompatibility, there is more learning and unlearning, there is more support, there is no chance my mother will ever get to grips with it, and I can't be bothered, either. As @OrangyTang said back there ... when the choice is Windows, Mac OS, or Linux, then it'll all work out for your favourite flavour of OS. While it's Windows, Mac OS, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Arch Linux, Debian, Slackware etc. compounded by at least two desktop window managers, at least two different package managers, and so on: no chance.

You are absolutely mistaken as to why users don't want to change OSes. It is not because they "don't know how to" - that is a patronising engineer's world view. It is because they do not need to. Windows is excellent, when all's said and done, and so is Mac OS. Doesn't stop me disliking them both for various reasons of course. But then every motorbike I've ever owned has some sort of flaw with it that you just have to ride around.

Cas Smiley

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #202 - Posted 2012-06-24 22:58:24 »

Actually Windows 7 setup considers partition management as an advanced task so you need to click the Drive options (advanced) link to make those options available. Apparently.

Same for Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora etc.

@ontaiwolf - your answers just completely cement my position on the matter but yet you can't still can't see it :/ Where there is choice, there is confusion, there is incompatibility, there is more learning and unlearning, there is more support, there is no chance my mother will ever get to grips with it, and I can't be bothered, either. As @OrangyTang said back there ... when the choice is Windows, Mac OS, or Linux, then it'll all work out for your favourite flavour of OS. While it's Windows, Mac OS, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Arch Linux, Debian, Slackware etc. compounded by at least two desktop window managers, at least two different package managers, and so on: no chance.

No, I think that you just don't understand Linux. Linux is not an OS and there is no company "Linux" which develops the Linux OS. Linux is an open source kernel developed by many companies (even by Microsoft). On the other side there are Linux distributions which use the kernel. They are the actual OSs. Some of them are made by companies like RedHat or Canonical and others by community like Debian or Arch. The user doesn't need to know all the distributions, he can just choose the best for him. Like you can go to a store and choose the shoes you like. Maybe it's confusing for you because you probably haven't tried Linux for at least two days yet.

Linux is open source, if you don't like something you can change it. Or just choose the best. That's the reason why are there so many of them. I'm sure that if Linux would be more successful you would see more different distributions.

You can see all the distributions as disconnected OSs (so you shouldn't see Linux as an OS but Ubuntu, Mint, Debian etc) who want peaces of the market like Windows or Mac OS. To get successful they don't need to work together to create a "Superlinux", they have to sell their OS on good hardware as I or Linus Torvalds said. And this is really difficult. Of course there are some other reasons like the small choice of professional software like Photoshop or games, but this is not really important, most of the users don't buy Photoshop for 1000€ and don't play Battlefield 3.

You are absolutely mistaken as to why users don't want to change OSes. It is not because they "don't know how to" - that is a patronising engineer's world view. It is because they do not need to. Windows is excellent, when all's said and done, and so is Mac OS. Doesn't stop me disliking them both for various reasons of course. But then every motorbike I've ever owned has some sort of flaw with it that you just have to ride around.

Sure you can also say that they don't need to change it. I listed only few examples. It doesn't really matter. If a good Linux distro would be preinstalled on good hardware most of users would use it till the last day of this hardware. Just like the Apple buyers use Mac OS although there is no Battlefield 3 for it.
Offline jonjava
« Reply #203 - Posted 2012-06-24 23:06:28 »

Work with linux, play with windows and use the mac as an earring.

Offline princec

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« Reply #204 - Posted 2012-06-24 23:14:50 »

You're still completely, totally missing the point of where I'm coming from. And most other people who try it.

Of course I understand Linux. "Do you know who I am?" etc. etc. I'm old, I've been doing this crap for over thirty years, I administer Linux servers, I've been testing Linux on and off for the last decade. I also have the dubious privilege of releasing software that got installed on about 50,000 Linux desktops and then having to support it - what a nightmare is all I can say. Hundreds and hundreds of support requests with all sorts of boggling problems versus, er, say, none for Mac OS. But never mind that.

You are again asking me to choose, or my mum, or at least some hypothetical user, which distribution of the OS to use. And of course, to the layman, it's "er, Linux?" To me, who knows a lot of stuff about a lot of things, I am only too painfully aware that there are least 5 distributions on my shortlist to attempt to try but which one? It's not like it's a trivial thing to test them all out. How's my mum going to choose? She's not! The choice is conveniently made for her. The only thing she currently has to choose is whether to buy a PC or a Mac. That's easy. Either of them are pretty trivial to use, mostly.

In order to "win" you need to sell Linux. What's the sizzle, for the ordinary layman?

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #205 - Posted 2012-06-24 23:46:31 »

I love Linus Torvalds. "I have an ego the size of a small planet."  "Nobody actually creates perfect code the first time around, except me. But there's only one of me."
He is like the Tony Stark of Computer Science.

Well just give me the Adobe Suite on Linux and I'm fine...

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #206 - Posted 2012-06-25 01:40:08 »

You can't blame linux for poor hardware support, it's the manufacturer's fault. Windows and Mac get cocky because all supports that they give to it.

Offline Eli Delventhal

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« Reply #207 - Posted 2012-06-25 02:31:28 »

I can't even keep up with this thread anymore. Seems like Cas saying doesn't like something and a lot of other people telling him he's wrong.

So basically it's like 50% of the threads on JGO.  Clueless

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Offline concerto49

Junior Member





« Reply #208 - Posted 2012-06-25 03:02:18 »

You can't blame linux for poor hardware support, it's the manufacturer's fault. Windows and Mac get cocky because all supports that they give to it.

Yes we can. It's a two-way street. Linux is has not gotten the attention for drivers to be had because their user base isn't in Linux. How do you think OSX moved from PowerPC to Intel? They worked with Intel to get the drivers working (both cpu and gpu). Linux has to work with them. Don't just blame manufacturers.

Windows and Mac don't just go cocky. They actually go do the work.

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Offline gene9

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« Reply #209 - Posted 2012-06-25 04:32:31 »

In order to "win" you need to sell Linux. What's the sizzle, for the ordinary layman?

Desktop Linux is *not* for the ordinary layman. It's a tool for the highly skilled elite.

It probably won't get huge market share. This isn't a bad thing.

A lot of the best stuff doesn't win over the unwashed masses. For example, LaTeX is dramatically better than Word for technical users, but it will never become more than a niche product.
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