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  Oracle vs Google  (Read 8630 times)
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Offline kappa
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« Posted 2012-04-17 19:20:34 »

As most of you will be aware the Oracle vs Google court case has final begun (they failed to negotiate a deal outside court).

Oracle are making their arguments first and have posted their opening slides here (makes for an interesting read).

Should be interesting to see who comes out on top.
Offline jonjava
« Reply #1 - Posted 2012-04-17 20:04:59 »

Read it all, interesting read.

My thoughts? I just hope the ultimate outcome benefits java and the java community.

Other than that, it seems google made a bit of a dick move and should've at least adhered android compatibility to the java TCK. Why didn't they anyway?

Offline h3ckboy

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2012-04-17 20:14:43 »

I know it makes sense, but it is sad that nobody cares that all developers prefer having android being java-based Tongue.

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Offline ShannonSmith
« Reply #3 - Posted 2012-04-17 20:19:03 »

I would love to know why the negotiations broke down over licencing java. It would seem Google did see this coming so I hope they have a strategy for how to deal with it.
Offline feelingtheblanks

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2012-04-17 21:00:34 »

What I'm wondering is how Oracle got these apparently secret e-mails Cheesy
Offline Cero
« Reply #5 - Posted 2012-04-17 21:38:12 »

Seems like a pretty clear case, from this point of view at least. will have to wait for google's response.


What I'm wondering is how Oracle got these apparently secret e-mails Cheesy
Everyone leaks everything.

Offline kappa
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« Reply #6 - Posted 2012-04-18 09:38:33 »

Groklaw has really good coverage of the case. The highlight from yesterday's hearing being Oracles Larry Ellison taking the stand and being questioned by Google's lawyers.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #7 - Posted 2012-04-18 17:06:10 »

Like Oracle, Google have today released their opening slides which can be found here.
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #8 - Posted 2012-04-19 21:43:53 »

I just come from spacee, what is the issue?

Online Riven
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« Reply #9 - Posted 2012-04-20 01:14:51 »

I don't quite like the huge amount of misleading remarks by the Google lawyers, but I guess they are paid to do exactly that.
Quote
And you understand that nobody owns the Java programming language, right?
The only answer is to agree, otherwise you look stupid.


Why do they resort to these low tactics?

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #10 - Posted 2012-04-20 08:07:50 »

What I'm wondering is how Oracle got these apparently secret e-mails Cheesy
Everyone leaks everything.
And rightly so in this case. When you sign a contract it will state that all the stuff you're producing for your employer is your own work (which you're signing over all rights to typically) and is free from any legal/licensing issues unless you've informed management.  I surely wouldn't want the shadow of a lawsuit against me from both Google and Oracle.  Back when I was doing custom video/audio & speech codecs I had clients ask me (on the phone of course)..."Hey!  Can't we just pretend we don't know about patents X,Y,Z?"  Man, screw that.

I just come from spacee, what is the issue?
Basically that Google more than willing went stomping all over patented and copyrighted materials.
Offline princec

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2012-04-20 09:35:37 »

Why do they resort to these low tactics?
Well, they want to win. There's no such thing as a fair fight.

For once in my life I'm not sure whose side I'm on. I'm pissed off with Google foisting a half-assed Java implementation on the world as a defacto standard. But then I'm pissed off with Oracle making them do it by being unreasonable on the terms in the first place. If Oracle win, will we get proper J2SE on Android and some serious performance gains? If Google wins, will Java start to fragment significantly? Do I even care so long as Eclipse still makes bytecode for either of them using the same syntax if not necessarily the APIs?

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
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« Reply #12 - Posted 2012-04-29 18:49:57 »

James Gosling lays out his position here.

Quote
In Dan Farber's recent article on CNET titled "Oracle v. Google: Ex-Sun execs on opposite sides" he got my position on the case totally backwards and totally misinterpreted my comments. Just because Sun didn't have patent suits in our genetic code doesn't mean we didn't feel wronged. While I have differences with Oracle, in this case they are in the right. Google totally slimed Sun. We were all really disturbed, even Jonathan: he just decided to put on a happy face and tried to turn lemons into lemonade, which annoyed a lot of folks at Sun.
Offline Cero
« Reply #13 - Posted 2012-04-29 20:45:59 »

Why do they resort to these low tactics?
Well, they want to win. There's no such thing as a fair fight.

Also they are out of options.
Google stole the stuff; there is not much more to it.
If they still wanna win this, they have to go all out.

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2012-04-29 21:08:02 »

For once in my life I'm not sure whose side I'm on.

The sports term for this would be "rooting for injuries."

I'd still like to see Oracle get the worst of it, otherwise you can look forward to paying for Java on a per-CPU basis.
Offline philfrei
« Reply #15 - Posted 2012-04-29 22:32:06 »

Quote
I'd still like to see Oracle get the worst of it, otherwise you can look forward to paying for Java on a per-CPU basis.

Does that necessarily follow? Oracle does acknowledge that Java is free, just certain aspects of it aren't, yes? Or am I missing something?

At what point does an independent game company cross a line into licensing issues for Java itself? When it includes a JVM with the app? I'm not really clear on just what part of Java is considered proprietary.

I guess I am okay with paying a *small* royalty, comparable to a "compulsory mechanical" or ASCAP license in music, assuming it is for commercially sold software. But it would have to be a very small amount.

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Offline Abuse

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« Reply #16 - Posted 2012-04-29 22:44:18 »

Obviously Google are in the wrong, but in this case I simply don't care.

This might strike at the very heart of copyright law itself, but I don't feel the law is serving it's intended purpose.

Quote
The United States Constitution 
Article I, Section 8, Clause 8
empowers the United States Congress

To promote the progress of science
and useful arts, by securing for
limited times to authors and
inventors the exclusive right to their
respective writings and discoveries.

Sun's repeated failures at creating a viable consumer platform for Java development are evidence enough that penalizing Google's success does not serve scientific progress.

It's the dichotomy of where to draw the line between the word of the law Vs the spirit of the law.

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #17 - Posted 2012-04-30 06:05:20 »

Oracle really should win based on law.  I'd be much happier if software patents took a hit though (I assume the they didn't drop the patent bits.)...because software patents suck.  Poster child case: arithmetic encoding help nobody, hurt everybody.  Patent pools like MPEGx would suffer, but man patents have gone out of control.
Offline Abuse

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2012-04-30 08:36:13 »

(I assume the they didn't drop the patent bits.)

The slides seemed to only focus on the copyright infringement of the API design and implementation.

On a side-note this slide puzzles me:

(Oracle's Slide 76)
Quote
Java Specification License Requirements Are Designed To
Avoid Fragmentation

License Requirements:

• Adhere to Java requirements
• Don’t do less or more than what
is required
• Do a “clean room” implementation
• License and pass compatibility
tests

How does requiring a "clean room" implementation reduce fragmentation?

100 monkeys writing 100 independent implementations of any given method will result in 100(+) different bugs.
J2ME is a perfect example of this; it's API might have been consistent across the many hundreds of different handsets, but each implementation was so riddled with unique bugs that the platform itself became nonviable due to fragmentation.

Perhaps this is a failing of the compatibility tests (or Sun's historically lackluster enforcement of them), rather than a problem with clean room implementations per se.
Though if that's the case, I think it's naive to expect even the most thorough of compatibility tests to catch all problems.

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Offline jonjava
« Reply #19 - Posted 2012-04-30 09:14:54 »

Doesn't a "clean room" implementation just mean that the full java API should be available to the coder and that the coder doesn't have to worry about any other external resources except for for the std java api?

Offline princec

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2012-04-30 11:59:33 »

Indeed, but as @Abuse mentions, the fact that a de facto standard implementation exists that everyone actually codes to in practice means that a clean room implementation, well, simply introduced more fragmentation and bugs than reduced them. It was with hindsight and the best of intentions, a bad idea. The long and the short of it is, Sun should have fully opened the java.* packages and plonked an appropriate license on them such that anyone could use them for anything, and left the real licensing behind the sun.* packages and the actual Hotspot native binaries.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #21 - Posted 2012-04-30 12:54:30 »

That would indeed be reasonable and doesn't effect the intent of the way the current licensing is set-up.  The real "interesting" parts are the non-java bits.  But, of course, that will flip-flop if they every get their meta-circular VM to a releasable state.  So I wouldn't expect this to change.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #22 - Posted 2012-05-07 19:50:41 »

The verdict of the first half of the Oracle vs Google trial is out (second half will cover patent infringement). The jury has sided with Oracle by finding that Google partially infringed Oracles copyright with Android, there is still a chance that Google might be able to argue a 'fair use' defence but not looking good for them, full info here.

Update: another take on the outcome here, from which it doesn't seem so bad for Google.
Offline ShannonSmith
« Reply #23 - Posted 2012-05-07 20:09:05 »

Given the jury instructions were to assume that API's are eligible for copyright there is really no way they could find that google hadn't infringed. I also think that if API's can be copyrighted the fair use defense doesn't make much sense (they copied a substantial portion of the API). It would probably have been better to have a complete verdict of infringement + no fair use and then have the Judge rule that API's can't be copyrighted (something he has indicated he will be deciding).
Offline sproingie

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« Reply #24 - Posted 2012-05-07 22:02:15 »

The only solid "infringement" is nine lines of code, from which Oracle is unlikely to show actual damages.  Otherwise the jury found that Android copied the API, but that the judge is inclined to rule that the API is not copyrightable.

Even if some novel decision came out that an API is copyrightable, Google could certainly make a claim that Sun waived any claims long ago by having a program for certifying java implementations, then again by GPL'ing the codebase.  They're certainly going to make that claim for the patent parts.

You'll probably find lots better analysis of the case on Groklaw, assuming you can stand the screechy sanctimonious vindictive paranoid bitch who runs the place, or her legion of sychophantic fans.
Offline philfrei
« Reply #25 - Posted 2012-05-07 23:01:08 »

This article claims a Google victory.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/07/google-oracle-ruling_n_1497545.html

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Offline oNyx

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2012-05-08 08:29:32 »

I'm glad that I'm doing most of my stuff with ECMAScript these days. What Oracle is doing there is really horrible for Java. Android was the best thing which ever happened to Java.

>Obviously Google are in the wrong

How so? Sun was fine with it.

Besides, Oracle stole SQL's API.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2012-05-08 10:11:42 »

Despite all my vested interests one way or another this case is so fascinating to me because I literally do not know on whose side I fall. The implications for the industry as a whole if Oracle are allowed to copyright an interface they publicly released are staggering. And yet Google clearly ripped them off. And yet it was almost certainly Sun/Oracle's fault that Google had to rip them off. And yet Dalvik/Android are an irritating, slow, fractured implementation of J2SE which I could frankly have done without. And yet Android means I can use Eclipse and Java to develop software that doesn't suck too much for a mass market phone. Boggle.

Cas Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2012-05-08 10:23:33 »

And yet Google clearly ripped them off.

Source? Everything I've seen looks like a clean-room re-implementation. The 'copied' code is so trivial it's not surprising it's the same given the api contract it has to adhere to.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #29 - Posted 2012-05-08 10:42:40 »

Source : me. Well, consider this: you spend a million dollars designing an API, which basically means writing interfaces and abstract classes. Don't write any actual implementation at all, and ignore the fact that quite often the implementation is what drove you to have to write quite a lot of those classes and interfaces in the first place. Comment everything meticulously as it's public API.

Now print it all out.

That's quite a lot of f**king work there. Probably an order of magnitude bigger than any project I've ever made.

You'd be bastard cross if someone just took all that without crediting you. I'd be livid.

Cas Smiley

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