The large part of the community (everybody but you) accepts the moderators judge the game.

If somebody is discouraged by that, and to such a degree that he gets demotivated, then perhaps programming isn't for him. A 'work is progress' status is not an insult. It is an opinion. Get over it.

The funny thing is, Jullien Gouesse, that you are not the center of the universe. Nobody cares whether your game is in WIP or in showcase. We might read the thread, use webstart to launch it, have problems, and that's it. We don't give a rats ass about which sub-forum it is in, and neither should you.

This forum is far from democratic. It shouldn't be. Maybe we should have a say if we all paid for the server, bandwidth and maintenance. Again, your view of democratic seems to be: your opinion. Even if this forum would be democratic, it's so abundantly clear that you'd still be a minority in your opinions and reasoning.

This vague handwaving might work in an ideal world, but not on a forum. It's the task of a moderator to... moderate, not to comfort anybody in their struggles and heartache. Authority is what keeps most in this world together. People have tried otherwise - flower powerrrrrr and see how that worked out.

Anyway, let's assume that we find 3 judges to judge some random game. They'd have to wait for eachothers opinion before they could make a final decision. Do you have any clue how long such things take to 'synchronize' ?And they can't agree... oh well. Now let's assume that our moderators have common sense... that's enough to judge 99% of the games. Including TUER, because the mouse input doesn't work. Ok? Thanks.


So what point are you trying to make?

For the same of argument, I won't respond to your last comment.

ok great, think then everyone agrees that there should be a new section where you need to satisfy the rules/guidelines to get your game into.

In order to avoid any objections about topics being moved, I'd say simply leave the "Games Showcase" section as it is and merge the WIP into it.

Then start a new section 'Cream of the Crop' (or whatever name) section where games that moderators think meet the rules/guidelines can be moved too.

Hopefully everyone will be happy, titles of the sections can always be changed later

That sounds great. =)

One of the criteria for having a game show up in the showcase should be that it's actually a good game. This probably means "no breakout clones". This in turn means there will be a bunch of finished games in the Works in Progress area, so that name might be a bit misleading.

Ah, nevermind, I don't want to complicate things further.


Also, it's quite interesting to go on about how things should be democratic when you're a very vocal minority, and I'm getting tired of being bullied into not pointing out the elephant in the room.

what about 3 subcategories like wip and 2 games showcases where one is for simple and beginner games and other for average and above games, moderators could decide into which category game fits.

I do a review roundup for Indiegamemag.com every 2 months (I used to do it for GameTunnel but the new owner axed the format). I devised a very simple scoring system which works well with a panel of multiple reviewers, so we all use it, and it goes something like this:

+1 point if the game installs and uninstalls correctly
+1 point if the game doesn't crash ever
+1 point if the game is slickly presented
+1 point if the game has "good" graphics that suit the game
+1 point if the game has "good" sound that suit the game
+1 point if the game's overall style is "good"
+1 point if the game is original or brings a great new original twist
+1 point if I enjoyed playing it
+1 point if I played the game even though I didn't have to (important factor when being a reviewer)
+1 point if I actually bought the game for myself or someone else (and a twist here, as a nod to the amateur nature of the forum here - +1 point instead, if the game is simply free to play)

About half of those points simply can't be argued with: it either installs and uninstalls properly on my machine or it doesn't; it either crashes or it doesn't; I either enjoyed playing it or I didn't; I played it when I didn't have to play it or I didn't; and I actually buy some of the games I review. The other 5 are more or less subjective, which is why a panel of reviewers works best. Some people are more critical than others (I'm especially scathing). There's no excuse for not getting less than 2 points though, yet some offerings actually manage it. Typically such games come as a zip file (FAIL) and then crash immediately (FAIL). I've yet to have a zero scored game to review but I reckon one's waiting in the wings for me.

It is entirely possible for a fairly simple but complete if unoriginal game to score 8 points. Make a breakout game with a proper menu, appropriately nice graphics and sound and a coherent style, and you've got yourself a complete game. My First Arkanoid Clone however, with its programmer art and probably completely missing sound, and a menu rendered using AWT fonts that doesn't respond to mouse clicks, is going to get 4 points if it's lucky.

So if anyone's worried about criteria for being put in the showcase - maybe that scoring system would be something of a start towards whether you think your game should be submitted or not. Julien, I invite you to score TUER on that scale. And anyone else, score your own games, and really think critically about the scores you're awarding. Is your programmer art actually really any good? Would you really pay for the game you just wrote? Etc.

Cas

Actually - you're really not that far off! How come I've never seen these games before? Because the Games section is so completely broken I bet! Your games are easy to install, run flawlessly, consistent, simple, fun, etc. They're prime candidates for the Showcase - top stuff. On that scale I'd rate the ones I played 8/10. In fact I'd quite like to mention them in Puppygames' blog.
<edit>Oh and you need to update your JOGL-based games to download the JOGL extension too, as they just crash on startup without it = NIL PWUN
<edit2>And Bunny Golf, probably the most interesting in terms of gameplay, falls down seriously on the slickness, graphics and sound stakes! With polish, it'd make the sort of game that can earn thousands of bucks on certain sites.

Cas

Ok, so let me clarify.

JGO is NOT a democracy, and we can run it as we see fit.  Period.  End of discussion.

However, we have been running things in a very community focused manner and have always acted in the best interest of the community, as best as we could.  We will continue to do so but will not get into these philosophical discussions anymore about what has to be done, "rights" of the authors, etc.  We are not editing your works, modifying your code, etc.  When it comes to the "rights" of using this forum, they are determined by the owners and moderators.  That's all.

I like the idea that Demonpants put forth and don't think we need to go to a community vote for something as simple as where the post resides.  Having a couple of mods that move recognized works into the Showcase is absolutely fine with me.

And just to be CRYSTAL CLEAR on this point, the moderators do not have to ask the authors of a post where to move it if the moderators feel it is in the wrong place.  Maintaining the site, cleaning up the sections, reclassifying posts, etc. are not decided in a committee or popular vote. Yes gouessej, I am talking to you. 

If you have an issue with something that is GLARINGLY wrong, let us know.  We are not unreasonable.  If you still have an issue with this, the web is a big place and hosting your own site is cheap.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is really over the top.  The new sections will be done, thanks Demonpants, and the guidelines to get your game in the Showcase will be posted there.  The overarching, general rule is that the mods will control what sits where.  If you have a real issue with it, that's what the PM function is for.

Oh, and I also like Cas's point scale

Gosh, thanks for the feedback!  Simultaneously positive and scathing - nice trick!
(And thanks for the heads-up about the JOGL failures.  I'll get onto that.)
Simon

A zip and a JAR are fine with me, as long as you don't try to make me run a .bat or .sh file. If you really want to do that, though, you might as well spend a day bundling your game as an exe and an app, and then leave the jar as an extra option (this is what I always do unless I use webstart).

I'm talking specifically about ease of use. If you're smart you can break someone's computer through pretty much any security protocol. Most people aren't used to running a bat or an sh, and they also defeat the purpose of Java by tailoring the app to a specific operating system. Obviously an exe and .app do the same, but they're simple double-click affairs. I'm speaking from a mostly Mac OS X perspective, where you need to know how to use the command line in order to run a sh.

Except I use a Mac.

(Let's see if this ruffles any feathers... )  Though it may defeat part of the purpose, I thought that JNLP can operate self-contained without requiring a server.  I don't know yet if that would classify it as an executable jar though.  Also, I just link straight to "javaws" on my system, and I have no problems.  I don't know how that might work on a Mac since I haven't explored the naming conventions.

Actually, that's what I had in mind.  Code can still go in "main" for searching natives, class paths, resources, and whatever.  For design purposes, part of the program could be local while another part serves as a thick or thin client maybe.  I guess it's a different subject though.

I had not considered that.  I know a couple of libraries exist as wrappers for at least the Windows platform.  I had been exploring JNLP as a sort of replacement for executable jars, but I haven't found much of the advantages yet.  I just am aware that it can operate similarly.  I seem to need a SH or BAT file on occasions for those with difficulty of running an executable jar.  It adds complexity.

you use the java diagbox icon in control panel to remove webstart stuff from the program list, you can delete any java related temp files also have a look and see.
 btw this threads getting a little off topic.. forums in my opinon should be moderated. My forum on my website is not moderated simply because it doesnt need to be.NO ONE CAN POST..bloody spammers cant they just leave me alone..lol