Java-Gaming.org Hi !
Featured games (83)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (539)
Games in Android Showcase (132)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (603)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5
  ignore  |  Print  
  "No, You Can't Make Video Games"  (Read 9603 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline opiop65

JGO Kernel


Medals: 161
Projects: 7
Exp: 4 years


JumpButton Studios


« Reply #60 - Posted 2014-05-20 17:58:14 »

Quote
Society needs to stop pretending like we're all the same, we're not. I'm all about equality, but the reality is, we are not all mentally equal. Wink
Everyone I know has been saying this for the past few years, including myself. While you're completely correct, society isn't just going to stop which is very frustrating. The biggest example I can think of where "mental equality" screws up society is in the classroom! As a student, I have had to take many standardized tests which seriously are a joke. Anyone can pass them because the tests are designed to allow even the "least intelligent" of kids to pass (of course, a lack of knowledge isn't an indicator of idiocy or a small brain!). A few of my teachers straight out say at the beginning of the year that they are just teaching us to pass the standardized tests, nothing more. We pretty much aren't encouraged to learn on our own or delve into the deeper corners of education to learn more about subjects that interest us, which pisses me off to no end!

Luckily I graduate from high school next year. Can't wait to finally be done with the stupid standardized tests.

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 434
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #61 - Posted 2014-05-20 19:06:38 »

It's sad to see how so many smart people are too stupid too see the advantages they have as smart people.

Well I dont count myself to those, because as I said, I do believe most people are utter idiots and not worth my time, however the CAUSE is bad parenting, broken education systems, pressure from social norms and a lack of intellectual focus and curiosity - not anything inborn.
<Patronising mode on>Wait till you're a bit older and wiser and more cynical and have met another few thousand people and come back and tell us what your new discoveries and opinions are regarding this  persecutioncomplex

Cas Smiley

Offline StumpyStrust
« Reply #62 - Posted 2014-05-20 19:22:54 »

Oh the old intelligence/talent arguments. This is something the tricking community often fights about. (Don't ask what the tricking community is)

I think Riven is right on many accounts.

People are born with a certain base level of "intelligence"/"IQ"/rational processes. This can be different in all areas. This aptitude is just that. What our potential could be.

If I spend say 8 hours practicing piano without any musical aptitude at all, I would make it to say level 12.
If someone with a higher musical aptitude did the same they would make it to level 32.

No we both would hit a cap. Much like there are physical caps there are also mental. I could cap at a level 45 while the other would cap at level 126.

This is basically how it works. Just think about it. Both people have to try but the one with a better "intelligence" would succeed more and faster given the same effort just like in sports.

As far as why programming has such high fail rates I have a theory.

I had no coding experience until I took CS 1 at university. There is something I call the wall when it comes to beginning coding. It is where you have no idea what the hell is going on. You are just typing cryptic crap in and getting something out. We all had the wall and all of us took a different amount of time to get over it. It takes a long time for some. People just give up to easily. Because it is a wall initially unlike most other subjects including mathematics that are more of a linear growth. With programing it is a wall until you understand what is going on.
 




Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 356
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #63 - Posted 2014-05-20 20:01:31 »

It's sad to see how so many smart people are too stupid too see the advantages they have as smart people.
Ha, I see what you mean Smiley

Click on the ostrich 3 times for a nice surprise.

..., but that you're limited in your potential by your brain structure/physiology (the ratio of types of braincells in certain areas in the brain).
I'm pretty sure I read that the latest research does show that your brain structure changes over time, and that you can affect how it develops. I did some quick Googling but couldn't find a good credible source though.
I remember reading the same thing, the article was talking about your brain can still form new links and rewire certain parts at later parts of your life. I'll try to look for it.

Offline Drenius
« Reply #64 - Posted 2014-05-20 20:02:22 »

Using HTML was actually a good icebreaker for me.
You do not do a lot, but you get used to giving "cryptic" orders to reach something visual and you get fast results and then you will start to consider using JavaScript or PHP which takes you closer to programming how you know it and so on...
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #65 - Posted 2014-05-20 20:18:34 »

I am 178.5cm tall man and I want to be basketball player. If I really want, try hard and practice every day. Can I be as good as 2m tall ones?
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 841
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #66 - Posted 2014-05-20 20:23:31 »

Yeah, your family and friends ruined your cell division big time. Nothing to do with genes, I tell ya.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social
Offline CodeHead

JGO Knight


Medals: 41


From rags to riches...to rags.


« Reply #67 - Posted 2014-05-20 20:24:33 »

I am 178.5cm tall man and I want to be basketball player. If I really want, try hard and practice every day. Can I be as good as 2m tall ones?

Why not? Wink

As a side note, it would be nice if there was some sort of easy language that people could use to get their feet wet when they're brand new to coding. Some sort of Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code that would require minimal inputs to get some sort of visual results that would hook people or at the least pique their interest. Yeah, somebody should definitely come up with something like that. Cool

Arthur: Are all men from the future loud-mouthed braggarts?
Ash: Nope. Just me baby...Just me.
Offline ags1

JGO Wizard


Medals: 75
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


Make code not war!


« Reply #68 - Posted 2014-05-20 20:29:43 »

I am 178.5cm tall man and I want to be basketball player. If I really want, try hard and practice every day. Can I be as good as 2m tall ones?

No, the best 2.0m guys will be better than you. But you will be better than the vast majority of 2.0m guys who don't try hard and practice every day.

I don't agree with the belief on this thread that programming requires some sort of special intelligence. A lot of good programming is about being meticulous, careful and methodical, and knowing your tools well. These are qualities different than raw IQ. Also, programming is not just problem solving - there is a creative aspect to it as well that cannot be rated on any simplistic linear scale.

Also, it's a well known fact that the average person usually rates themselves as being of "above average intelligence". Which is just a nice way of saying they think everyone else is dumb.

Online Rayvolution

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 259
Projects: 2
Exp: 1 year


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #69 - Posted 2014-05-20 21:04:42 »

Also, it's a well known fact that the average person usually rates themselves as being of "above average intelligence". Which is just a nice way of saying they think everyone else is dumb.

True, but there are exceptions. People who actually are above average intelligence are capable of making this claim as well, just because a lot of dumb people have the "You're stupid because you don't think like I do" mentality doesnt really change that.

Religion and politics are a prime example that separate the "Dumb people who think they're smart" and the actual intelligent people. Good luck with that debate with a closed minded and unintelligent person, it'll no doubt end with him calling you an idiot making wild unfounded claims, repeating the same thing over and over they've been "trained" to parrot back, and ignoring your actual facts.

So I agree, there are a lot of people who think they're smart, but are actually morons. They roam through life assuming if you disagree with them, you're obviously wrong. They never look for actual truths or answers, nor have the brainpower to understand them anyway. They just want what they want to be true, to be true, and that in itself is all the reason it must be true!

But, there is a very distinctive difference between dumb people who think they're smarter than everyone and people who genuinely are just smarter, regardless of education levels.

Circling back on track; I think StumpyStrust's example is best. Everyone has the ability to hone their skills and become better at anything, but some people have a much higher level cap than others. For example, someone with an IQ of 70 (legal retardation) but has a slight aptitude for algebra can still be better than his intellectual peers, but he'll probably cap out before getting into College-Level stuff, or trig/calc. (We're also not referencing idiot savants and certain autistic spectrums, we're assuming generic retardation)

Now, that's an extreme example, if we back peddle to thinking about the difference between say, someone with an IQ of 90 and someone with 110 who have the same aptitudes in the same areas, you will start to see a trend where the one with the 110 IQ who works just as hard as the one with 90 learning faster, and capping out a few levels above the other one. The guy with a 90 IQ is pretty much an average joe (IQs between 90 and 110 are all still in the "average range"). So he's still a normal, every day functioning person. He probably isn't even considered "stupid". Just a person. But the guy with the 110 IQ still has a leg-up on him, assuming they both had the same natural aptitudes.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline KevinWorkman

JGO Kernel


Medals: 107
Projects: 11
Exp: 12 years


klaatu barada nikto


« Reply #70 - Posted 2014-05-20 21:31:27 »

As a side note, it would be nice if there was some sort of easy language that people could use to get their feet wet when they're brand new to coding. Some sort of Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code that would require minimal inputs to get some sort of visual results that would hook people or at the least pique their interest. Yeah, somebody should definitely come up with something like that. Cool

Like I've hinted at in a few of my rants in this thread, there are languages like that.

For young kids, languages like Scratch or Alice teach the concepts of programming with drag-and-drop interfaces that are actually pretty clever.
http://scratch.mit.edu/
http://www.alice.org/index.php
http://www.java.com/en/java_in_action/alice.jsp

For middle school, high school, and even older students, I'd highly recommend Processing. It's built on top of Java (actually I think so is Alice), but it makes it very trivial to have something visual and interactive going in just a few lines of code: http://www.processing.org/

I think languages like these, coupled with movements like Code.org, are going to change how we think about Computer Science education. Then it won't be a matter of "programming is simply too hard for people who aren't as smart as me" ego that pervades CS education (and this thread), but more a "you can do anything you want with programming, just like other art or science" approach.

Static Void Games - Play indie games, learn game programming, upload your own games!
Offline KevinWorkman

JGO Kernel


Medals: 107
Projects: 11
Exp: 12 years


klaatu barada nikto


« Reply #71 - Posted 2014-05-20 21:34:38 »


True, but there are exceptions. People who actually are above average intelligence are capable of making this claim as well, just because a lot of dumb people have the "You're stupid because you don't think like I do" mentality doesnt really change that.

Actually, intelligent people are more likely to rate themselves as average or below average: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I think we're seeing a lot of the Dunning-Kruger effect in this discussion.

Static Void Games - Play indie games, learn game programming, upload your own games!
Online Rayvolution

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 259
Projects: 2
Exp: 1 year


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #72 - Posted 2014-05-20 21:53:20 »


True, but there are exceptions. People who actually are above average intelligence are capable of making this claim as well, just because a lot of dumb people have the "You're stupid because you don't think like I do" mentality doesnt really change that.

Actually, intelligent people are more likely to rate themselves as average or below average: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I think we're seeing a lot of the Dunning-Kruger effect in this discussion.

The exceptionally higher intelligent people completely break the Dunning-Kruger effect studies though because not enough of them exist to measure in the first place. Dunning-Kruger mostly has been used to compare people genuinely average (90-110ish~). People who break into above average and gifted tend to just know they are well above average, because the evidence proves it. Their battle isn't so much understanding they're smarter as it is the natural side effect of questioning every-damn-thing-known-to-exist, including themselves. Thus, it can also trigger insecurities like asking "I know I'm smart, but am I smart? Am I just clouding myself? or am I actually smart? What if I'm not smart? What if people just nod and agree but think I'm an idiot?".

Another contributing factor is the fact a lot of westernized countries seem to ostracize intellectualism and call it "arrogance", "egotistical" or "stuck up", making people feel bad for being smart. that in itself really messes with the self esteem of the insecure intellectuals (Mostly the younger ones still looking for their identity). . . and that's a massively more complicated subject, but it influences the results of studies like Dunning-Kruger on the mass population, specifically the people 25 and younger.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline KevinWorkman

JGO Kernel


Medals: 107
Projects: 11
Exp: 12 years


klaatu barada nikto


« Reply #73 - Posted 2014-05-20 23:59:22 »

Code.org said it best (in a tweet when I asked them about their thoughts): "Not everyone will be an expert, but anyone can learn the basics. Just like any subject, like writing, math."

I think this is the point that people seem to be missing. Is everybody going to be able to create WoW or CoD or facebook? Nope. Heck, most people *here* (including the self-proclaimed geniuses and intellectuals who have no time for the plebeian masses) will never create something so massive!

That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage people to dabble, to play around with Pong or their own websites or whatever. And I think attitudes like "some people just can't cut it" discourage even that level of engagement, which is a real shame, especially when CS has serious problems with diversity as is.

Static Void Games - Play indie games, learn game programming, upload your own games!
Online Rayvolution

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 259
Projects: 2
Exp: 1 year


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #74 - Posted 2014-05-21 00:43:39 »

That doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage people to dabble, to play around with Pong or their own websites or whatever. And I think attitudes like "some people just can't cut it" discourage even that level of engagement, which is a real shame, especially when CS has serious problems with diversity as is.

oh, no doubt agree with you there. I don't think anyone should just give up and you shouldnt tell a newbie "you suck, stop trying dumbass". It's a harsh reality that some people can't cut it, but at the same time we don't want to discourage people from attempting to learn even if they are "doomed to fail". Even if they don't get anywhere meaningful during the pursuit, they're better people for it in the end because the skills or lessons they learned along the way are valuable.

It's a very fine line I guess. Because there really are people who just can't cut it, and shouldn't make a career out something they're horrible at (Like in my OP about my friend and going to college to be a dev), but at the same time even if you're horrible the benefits of trying something and failing outweigh never giving something a shot in the first place. The problem arises when you have to figure out when the correct time is to tell your "I'm going to be a rock star!!" friend who has been playing the guitar for 20 years and still sounds like a dying cat that he shouldn't quit his day job to follow his dreams.

But, everyone sucks at first. I think the fine line is figuring out when sucking is due to lack of experience, or lack of ability. Once it's realized that it's a complete lack of ability, they should be gently  informed they should try something else. People who can't handle being told they're honestly bad at something, well, that's another problem in itself they need to work out.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline KevinWorkman

JGO Kernel


Medals: 107
Projects: 11
Exp: 12 years


klaatu barada nikto


« Reply #75 - Posted 2014-05-21 01:33:41 »

Right, but none of that is inherent to programming. The same can be said of art, science, math, gardening, cooking, whatever. I don't think anything sets programming aside other than the lack of exposure most people get to it, which is something we can fix.

I think we should focus on how to encourage people and be more welcoming, rather than pat ourselves on the back about how much smarter we are than the average person.

Static Void Games - Play indie games, learn game programming, upload your own games!
Offline HeroesGraveDev

JGO Kernel


Medals: 310
Projects: 11
Exp: 3 years


┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


« Reply #76 - Posted 2014-05-21 01:51:31 »

Only people who are talented can make video games, unless you put in lots more time and effort, unless you really are unable to learn how to make video games with the extra effort, unless you're really interested, unless... etc.

When it comes to people, there is always an exception, and an exception to every exception.
Some can, some can't. But it's not always easy to work out who's who.

Which is why they need to find out for themselves if they can or not. And everybody else needs to accept that not everyone can program, and also that not everyone can't program.

Offline philfrei
« Reply #77 - Posted 2014-05-21 02:55:32 »

Quote
I've seen family members working the '10 hours a day', passionated, driven, and sadly failing the study they worked so hard for. It's heartbreaking. It was simply due to intelligence. Just not quite smart enough for that level of education, no matter their effort. She thrived doing exactly the same study at a slightly lower level.

Now, people, get off your high horse blaming it on lack of dedication. Life's unfair, not everybody has a brain capable of their passion, even in the most stimulating, supportive environment.

Mostly, I think this is a reasonable example and laudatory outcome and conclusion. My only grumble with the above is that the reason for the lack of success doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with intelligence. There is more luck (randomness/chaos) involved than most people are willing to recognize. For example, sometimes a pursuit requires dealing with a process of trial and error. Given the set of all the people that launch, some will have the bad luck to try only the wrong guesses. Are they less intelligent, passionate, persistent? Not necessarily. Perhaps just unlucky.

The world is intensely complicated and attributing success/failure simply to one attribute is not an adequate model. "Intelligence" is multi-faceted and not entirely understood. I think it is good to be truthful when asked an opinion, but also to respect the individual with desire and courage and initiative to learn via their own process.

"It's after the end of the world! Don't you know that yet?"
Online Rayvolution

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 259
Projects: 2
Exp: 1 year


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #78 - Posted 2014-05-21 02:59:42 »

Right, but none of that is inherent to programming. The same can be said of art, science, math, gardening, cooking, whatever. I don't think anything sets programming aside other than the lack of exposure most people get to it, which is something we can fix.

I think we should focus on how to encourage people and be more welcoming, rather than pat ourselves on the back about how much smarter we are than the average person.

Totally agree. Wink I think we're on the same page with different vernacular. lol. I don't feel like we should discourage people at all, I'll wholeheartedly teach anyone who wants to know anything about programming (or anything else for that matter), even if I think it may turn out to be a lost cause.

I actually consider programming more an "art form of science", than just applying mathematical/logic solving skills to something useful, that might explain why as a life-long graphics designer I picked up on programming easily. For whatever reason the higher-order concept of computer programming as a whole flows like any other art form would. At least, in my mind. To me, graphics design and computer programming are just 2 different leaves on the same branch. The core aptitudes required are mostly the same, just a *lot* more people have a *lot* more experience in graphics design because of the huge brick-wall-o-programming everyone gets discouraged trying to climb.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Online Rayvolution

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 259
Projects: 2
Exp: 1 year


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #79 - Posted 2014-05-21 03:06:28 »

Mostly, I think this is a reasonable example and laudatory outcome and conclusion. My only grumble with the above is that the reason for the lack of success doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with intelligence. There is more luck (randomness/chaos) involved than most people are willing to recognize. For example, sometimes a pursuit requires dealing with a process of trial and error. Given the set of all the people that launch, some will have the bad luck to try only the wrong guesses. Are they less intelligent, passionate, persistent? Not necessarily. Perhaps just unlucky.

The world is intensely complicated and attributing success/failure simply to one attribute is not an adequate model. "Intelligence" is multi-faceted and not entirely understood. I think it is good to be truthful when asked an opinion, but also to respect the individual with desire and courage and initiative to learn via their own process.

Yes, but the higher your intelligence the less luck has an impact on outcome. does luck help? of course. But luck is definitely not a "major" factor. That's just something people say to feel better about their failures. Although there are cases where straight-up bad luck screwed someone over, but generally speaking and ignoring all exceptions to the rules, a higher intelligent person has a insurmountably greater chance to obtain their goals. Whatever they may be! Cheesy

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline jonjava
« Reply #80 - Posted 2014-05-21 07:30:17 »

Yes, but the higher your intelligence the less luck has an impact on outcome. does luck help? of course. But luck is definitely not a "major" factor. That's just something people say to feel better about their failures. Although there are cases where straight-up bad luck screwed someone over, but generally speaking and ignoring all exceptions to the rules, a higher intelligent person has a insurmountably greater chance to obtain their goals. Whatever they may be! Cheesy

What a remarkably insignificant and profoundly meaningless conclusion.

Not unlike much of what has been unveiled in this thread, however.


Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 434
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #81 - Posted 2014-05-21 07:50:02 »

The harder I work, the luckier I get.

Cas Smiley

Online Rayvolution

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 259
Projects: 2
Exp: 1 year


Resident Crazyman


« Reply #82 - Posted 2014-05-21 07:51:32 »

Yes, but the higher your intelligence the less luck has an impact on outcome. does luck help? of course. But luck is definitely not a "major" factor. That's just something people say to feel better about their failures. Although there are cases where straight-up bad luck screwed someone over, but generally speaking and ignoring all exceptions to the rules, a higher intelligent person has a insurmountably greater chance to obtain their goals. Whatever they may be! Cheesy

What a remarkably insignificant and profoundly meaningless conclusion.

Not unlike much of what has been unveiled in this thread, however.



Actually I think it makes a very straight forward and painfully obvious conclusion. Luck does have an effect on the outcomes of events in your life and in your ability to learn if you get lucky and find the answer quickly or stumble into the right situations, but the actual ratio of the effect luck has is heavily mitigated away by your raw intellect. Thus, smart people use much less luck to obtain goals.

I'm not entirely sure why this thread offends you. Most of the topic matter has been very interesting to read, gathering other peoples perspectives on intelligence and it's impact on our lives. If you do not want to partake it actually having an intellectual conversation here, you're more than welcome not to. :/


- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #83 - Posted 2014-05-21 08:38:26 »

Actually it turns out learning (or maybe teaching...) programming is not quite as simple as most other subjects. It has one of the highest rates of failure of any "science" discipline at university. I seem to recall that about 66% of students who started a degree course in programming simply could not grasp the subject, at all, and failed. This is a marked difference from almost all other science subjects.


Actually I was one of them, I just couldn't fathom it in the slightest and got the worst grades ever. I didn't like it at all.

Until one of my best friends in the same class, who had already been programming basic at age 8, started to make games and I realized "crap... I can become a game developer!". At that point it all flipped around and within a year I was known in the hallways as "that guy that is incredibly good at programming". Of course I didn't end up becoming a professional game programmer because I "couldn't" at the time.

Nowadays when I spot someone who is struggling to find programming entertaining, I advise to create little games. How quickly it turns around only because you start to apply it towards something fun.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 434
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #84 - Posted 2014-05-21 09:00:09 »

On that same note... I advise people to start with BASIC if they can.
It's such a shame computers these days don't just boot to a BASIC interpreter prompt.

Cas Smiley

Offline jonjava
« Reply #85 - Posted 2014-05-21 09:19:12 »

Intelligence.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/G2y8Sx4B2Sk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/G2y8Sx4B2Sk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=</a>

Offline Herjan
« Reply #86 - Posted 2014-05-21 09:43:30 »

I think you hit it on the head: it's the *teaching* that's still catching up. Traditional CS was done by physicists and engineers, and in many (most?) places, that's how it's still taught. Most first year programs involve solving math equations, printing prime numbers, etc.

Compare that to why most people want to get into programming: to make games, highly visual apps, deploy to mobile devices, networked applications, etc. That's a stark contrast between what the student expects and reality, which I think is a common theme in this discussion.

...

Movements like Code.org and Black Girls Code are helping expose more kids and under-represented populations to programming, and I think it's an exciting trend. If a kid is exposed to programming the same way they're exposed to art, then maybe programming won't be "simply too hard" for some people?

You may be quite right, although I think the problem only lies for a small part in the *teaching*. First of all, students overestimate themselves, I remember someone saying in this thread that most people think of themselves as 'above average people'. People think they can do/learn whatever they want, an opinion shared by many people in this thread. So they think like: games, cool! And Bill Gates, money! And they almost expect to make a Call of Duty by just dragging images to the corners of the screen like you do in Word. So you made a point, I agree with you on the fact that programming is NOT what people expect it is. An explanation why the 'suck-rate' in computer-science is so much higher, but it's also the 'self-confidence' that plays a big role.

But this doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the way programming is teached these days, if math equations even give you a single problem, it's indeed better to quit as soon as you can and increase the 'suck-rate', (since programming == math returns 90% true). I also don't think that the amount of graduated programmers will increase by learning kids what code is (through Code.org or whatever inventioned), programming won't be easier with help of these inventions, but it will reduce the 'suck-rate' since people will have better knowledge of what programming really is.

Offline KevinWorkman

JGO Kernel


Medals: 107
Projects: 11
Exp: 12 years


klaatu barada nikto


« Reply #87 - Posted 2014-05-21 12:42:39 »


Yes, but the higher your intelligence the less luck has an impact on outcome. does luck help? of course. But luck is definitely not a "major" factor. That's just something people say to feel better about their failures.

I actually attribute most of my *success* to *good* luck.

We were lucky enough to be born in countries/regions/families that had access to computers. We were lucky enough to go to schools, or have access to educational resources, that made learning programming possible. We were lucky enough to stumble across a language that "fit in our brains" early on. We were lucky enough to be encouraged to learn about programming (as opposed to how the field often treats minorities and girls).

That is not to say that it was particularly *easy* for any of us. We probably don't come from mega-rich backgrounds, and we've all had our difficulties along the way. I'm not trying to be dismissive of any of that. But I also don't think *we* can be dismissive of the misfortune that *others* go through, either.

There is a lot of stick-to-it-ness and hard work that goes into learning how to program. But attributing all of your success to your "intelligence" and all of everybody else's "failures" to laziness seems a bit short-sighted, imho.

I guess there are a couple different types of non-programmers, and we might each just be talking about different types, which is why our viewpoints seem to be so different?

Static Void Games - Play indie games, learn game programming, upload your own games!
Offline KevinWorkman

JGO Kernel


Medals: 107
Projects: 11
Exp: 12 years


klaatu barada nikto


« Reply #88 - Posted 2014-05-21 12:44:29 »

On that same note... I advise people to start with BASIC if they can.
It's such a shame computers these days don't just boot to a BASIC interpreter prompt.

For the exact same reason, I recommend people check out Processing first. It's got a simple Java-like syntax, but it's trivial to have something visual and interactive going in just a few lines of code. Perfect for keeping novices engaged while also teaching them "real" programming.

Static Void Games - Play indie games, learn game programming, upload your own games!
Offline KevinWorkman

JGO Kernel


Medals: 107
Projects: 11
Exp: 12 years


klaatu barada nikto


« Reply #89 - Posted 2014-05-21 12:49:23 »

I also don't think that the amount of graduated programmers will increase by learning kids what code is (through Code.org or whatever inventioned), programming won't be easier with help of these inventions, but it will reduce the 'suck-rate' since people will have better knowledge of what programming really is.

Movements like Code.org don't directly aim to increase the number of CS graduates. They aim to increase the diversity in the field by introducing programming to different types of people at an earlier age when there are fewer pressures from society about what they should and should not be. They aim to increase the amount of exposure the "average" person has to computer science concepts. They don't aim to make programming easier, but they do aim to increase the exposure that people have to it. That might lead to an increase in CS enrollment, retention, and graduation, but even if it doesn't, I don't see how educating more people is a bad thing.

Static Void Games - Play indie games, learn game programming, upload your own games!
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

rwatson462 (36 views)
2014-12-15 09:26:44

Mr.CodeIt (29 views)
2014-12-14 19:50:38

BurntPizza (61 views)
2014-12-09 22:41:13

BurntPizza (98 views)
2014-12-08 04:46:31

JscottyBieshaar (58 views)
2014-12-05 12:39:02

SHC (74 views)
2014-12-03 16:27:13

CopyableCougar4 (76 views)
2014-11-29 21:32:03

toopeicgaming1999 (136 views)
2014-11-26 15:22:04

toopeicgaming1999 (127 views)
2014-11-26 15:20:36

toopeicgaming1999 (37 views)
2014-11-26 15:20:08
Resources for WIP games
by kpars
2014-12-18 10:26:14

Understanding relations between setOrigin, setScale and setPosition in libGdx
by mbabuskov
2014-10-09 22:35:00

Definite guide to supporting multiple device resolutions on Android (2014)
by mbabuskov
2014-10-02 22:36:02

List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!