Alan_W
JGO Ninja  Posts: 734 Medals: 8
Java tames rock!
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Reply #90 on:
2005-05-05 12:34:54 » |
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Why aren't you just using the lwjgl Display utility?
Ah, I hadn't spotted it  /Edit - Actually (after a closer look) I am using the utility, but not as concisely as your code. /Edit2 - After an even closer look I realised that I was using the Display class in the opengl package not the utils package. Thanks Alan |
Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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William Denniss
JGO Kernel Posts: 1837 Medals: 5
Fire at will
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Reply #91 on:
2005-05-05 16:44:30 » |
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Since LWJGL is a community project, we can add some 4k tweaks to the library  . I'm thinking of setOptimumDisplayMode() which makes a full screen LWJGL window at the user's current resolution.  Will. |
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel  Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #92 on:
2005-05-06 03:55:17 » |
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It already does that  Display.setFullscreen(true); Display.create(); Done! Cas |
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Games published by our own members! Go get 'em! 
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nonnus29
JGO Ninja Posts: 687
Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco
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Reply #93 on:
2005-05-06 10:38:31 » |
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Nice, that's gives me a spinning triangle in about 1400 bytes! |
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Alan_W
JGO Ninja Posts: 734 Medals: 8
Java tames rock!
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Reply #94 on:
2005-05-24 00:42:23 » |
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It's been rather quiet on the LWJGL16k front, so here are some suggestions for rules. These have no official standing and are supplied for discussion purposes only. LWJGL16 Rules (Draft) The competition shall: - start at 00:00 UTC on TBD 2005 - finish at 24:00 UTC on TBD 2005 The application shall: - work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE and/or the java 1.5 JRE. - be packaged as one or more jars using the gzip format. - contain no more than 16384 bytes total in the jar(s), excluding libraries. - use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org. - optionally use the FMOD library available from www.fmod.org. - work (without sound) if MIDI is used, but a soundbank is not available. - be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred). - be compatible with a creative commons attribution, noncommercial, share-alike license. The application shall not: - require any libraries except those identified above. - use any resources external to the jar(s). - contain offensive material. - contain any unlicenced copyright material. Notes: 1. A client-server architecture is permitted, provided the server is implemented in java and the total number of bytes in both client and server jars does not exceed 16384 bytes. 2. Development using java 1.5 is permitted, but not encouraged, as the JRE is not yet widespread in users machines. 3. Pack200 format is not to be used so as to allow competitive entries in either java 1.4.2 or 1.5. 4. It is desirable that the application does not require a soundbank to be installed. 5. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X. |
Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #95 on:
2005-05-24 03:15:45 » |
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1.5 must alas be banned for now, as it's rare as hen's teeth. Conveniently that sidesteps the pack200 issue. Cas |
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blahblahblahh
JGO Kernel Posts: 4575
http://t-machine.org
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Reply #96 on:
2005-05-24 03:16:12 » |
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There should only be one JVM version supported, so that everyone's on a level playing field. Personally, I'd say 1.4, and anyone who can't bear to go without their VB-for-loops can just make their game yet-another-advert for Toby's retroweaver.
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malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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CaptainJester
JGO Neuromancer Posts: 1138 Medals: 8
Make it work; make it better.
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Reply #97 on:
2005-05-24 05:08:14 » |
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- contain no more than 16384 bytes total in the jar(s), excluding libraries.
This makes it sound like the code has to be that size before be packed into the jar. You might want to say:
- the final jar file must be no more that 16384 bytes
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woogley
JGO Neuromancer Posts: 1098 Medals: 5
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Reply #98 on:
2005-05-24 08:24:13 » |
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I agree with blah3, 1.4 should be the required VM for this contest. But if users want I dont see why they cant go under that VM (i.e. VM <= 1.4). It doesn't bother me if someone uses 1.2, I have 1.4 so it *should* run fine. I don't see the need for the 24 hour time limit. All of the participants may not be online at the same time when we launch the contest. Besides, this contest has been in the making for quite some time, it wouldn't surprise me if someone has already whipped up an application for the contest (like oNyx did in the 4K contest: JM4K). I suggest we make it a 3-4 week contest (roughly a month). Also, the submission link for games has changed: http://unlimited.woogley.net/games/submit.phpThere's a contest choice called "Java 16K 2005" - that is the contest category the judges of this contest (which needs to be determined) will use to find the glorious winner How do we want to do the judging by the way? Last time people just emailed me the scores (and jbanes later took those scores and put them into a handy Excel file). That's alot of work though.. I think I'd rather code up a judging panel where the judges vote on Java Unlimited sort of like a poll.. and we'll let PHP do the calculating But before that happens, we need to figure out WHAT to judge (gameplay, graphics, sound, etc.) |
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #99 on:
2005-05-24 09:44:04 » |
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LWJGL only works on 1.4 and above so that pretty much rules out the earlier VMS. Cas |
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Games published by our own members! Go get 'em! 
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kevglass
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 5214 Medals: 49
Mentally unstable, best avoided.
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Reply #100 on:
2005-05-24 10:22:42 » |
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So when does it start?
Kev
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Alan_W
JGO Ninja Posts: 734 Medals: 8
Java tames rock!
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Reply #101 on:
2005-05-24 12:28:18 » |
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Thanks for the comments. I agree about not using Java 1.5 and that the wording of the size constraint was ambiguous. See if the new wording is Ok. The TBD wasn't intended to imply a 24 hour competition (I haven't got a finished game... yet) and suggest that we start this coming weekend. The finish date is set on a Monday to ensure no one is caught out by time zones, if coding late into Sunday night. LWJGL16 Rules (Draft B) The competition shall: - start at 00:00 UTC on Saturday 28th May 2005 - finish at 24:00 UTC on Monday 27th June 2005 The application shall: - work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE. - be packaged as one or more jars using the gzip format. - as packed jars, consist of no more than 16384 bytes, excluding libraries. - use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org. - optionally use the FMOD library available from www.fmod.org. - work (without sound) if MIDI is used, but a soundbank is not available. - be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred). - be compatible with a creative commons attribution, noncommercial, share-alike license. The application shall not: - require any libraries except those identified above. - use any resources external to the jar(s). - contain offensive material. - contain any unlicenced copyright material, trademarks or patents. Games shall be judged on: - Gameplay (30 points) - Graphics (20 points) - Sound (20 points) - Originality (20 points) - Cross-platform compatibility (10 points) Notes: 1. A client-server architecture is permitted, provided the server is implemented in java and the total number of bytes of both client and server jars does not exceed 16384 bytes. 2. It is desirable that the application does not require a soundbank to be installed. 3. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X. |
Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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Matzon
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 1805 Medals: 8
I'm gonna wring your pants!
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Reply #102 on:
2005-05-24 14:09:24 » |
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Games shall be judged on:
- Gameplay (30 points)
- Graphics (20 points)
- Sound (20 points)
- Originality (20 points)
- Cross-platform compatibility (10 points) As a *games* compo I would weigh these as: Gameplay: 50 Originality: 25 Graphics: 10 Sound: 10 Cross platform: 5 Incedently, I would - for the life of someone dearly - never ever announce any points or listing per game. I would simply announce a winner, a runner up - and perhaps mention an honorable entry. Anything else is an invitation for dispute. Exhibit A: 4k compo As for the license, I would suggest either using BSD, or similar (attribution, if you really want to go CC) - and use that license *only*. If you can't deliver your work as that license, then you don't participate. Since we'll be demoing it on lwjgl.org too, we don't want 43242 license types to confuse - and therefore we ought to just stick to the BSD/MIT license. |
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Matzon
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 1805 Medals: 8
I'm gonna wring your pants!
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Reply #103 on:
2005-05-24 14:11:04 » |
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as for a date, june 1st to june 31th sounds like a deal. This should give us enough time to release an updated lwjgl, and setup a webstart extension. But this isn't etched in stone - need to clear it.
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woogley
JGO Neuromancer Posts: 1098 Medals: 5
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Reply #104 on:
2005-05-24 15:16:07 » |
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As for the license, I would suggest either using BSD, or similar (attribution, if you really want to go CC) - and use that license *only*. If you can't deliver your work as that license, then you don't participate.
The CC I've been using on my site (see here) is an attribution CC (Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 to be exact). But if you all want BSD that's fine with me. No game has been *officially* submitted (the 4K games were archived by me) so I can still change the license to something we all agree with. |
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Alan_W
JGO Ninja Posts: 734 Medals: 8
Java tames rock!
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Reply #105 on:
2005-05-24 16:13:10 » |
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As a *games* compo I would weigh these as:
Gameplay: 50
Originality: 25
Graphics: 10
Sound: 10
Cross platform: 5
The above is Ok with me
As for the license, I would suggest either using BSD, or similar (attribution, if you really want to go CC) - and use that license *only*.
If we went Creative Commons, only a single version of that licence would be allowed. CC is best suited to artistic works, while BSD to code distributions. It partly depends on whether people want to allow use of third party music, which is often licensed under CC. However LWJGL uses a BSD style licence, while OpenAl & Devil use LGPL. So... If one used LWJGL but not OpenAl or Devil, then a BSD license would work quite well. BSD does not ask for attribution so it wouldn't be very compatible with any CC material. Note that if you package FMOD, you will need a non-commercial only license to comply with their 'free' version licensing. Not sure what is the best solution. Will wait for more comments. |
Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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nonnus29
JGO Ninja Posts: 687
Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco
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Reply #106 on:
2005-05-24 18:34:48 » |
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As a *games* compo I would weigh these as:
Gameplay: 50
Originality: 25
Graphics: 10
Sound: 10
Cross platform: 5 I dispute the high weighting of 'originality'. This isn't a 'game design' contest; its a 'what can you fit in 16k contest'. In fact I dispute originality category altogether; in it's place I propose 'innovation'; imagine if someone were able to fit Warcraft 1 into 16k, that would not be original, but highly innovative. Also, I'd like to see a two month contest; the 4k was 5 months and that's the only reason I was able to participate; 16k logically should require more time, not less. One month is too much less imho. |
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woogley
JGO Neuromancer Posts: 1098 Medals: 5
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Reply #107 on:
2005-05-24 18:50:24 » |
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it looks like I'm gonna go ahead and change the license agreement on the site to BSD (CC is indeed intended for artistic works, and most licenses around here are BSD anyway)
I agree with the "innovative" category instead of "originality." If we had judged the 4K games with originality, those Tetris, Snake, etc clones would have bit the dust FAST.
Regarding the two month issue.. that's worth some debate. Java 4K did indeed last 5months after multiple extensions, something we don't want to mess with again. The first extension (which was also the largest) was made because the contest started @ the Sun forums and nobody here really knew about it. I still think 4 weeks ought to be enough time. Part of the challenge is time management. However, we could probably call it even and just say 6 weeks, maybe?
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CaptainJester
JGO Neuromancer Posts: 1138 Medals: 8
Make it work; make it better.
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Reply #108 on:
2005-05-24 21:12:42 » |
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I like 2 months as well. Like you said, "Time management". I have very little free time to manage, so 2 months would be enough, but one month would be a maybe. Especially with people who might take vactions in June. June 1 to July 31 is not so bad. (Or Aug 1 for a Monday.)
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Alan_W
JGO Ninja Posts: 734 Medals: 8
Java tames rock!
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Reply #109 on:
2005-05-24 23:32:24 » |
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Thanks for the input. Here is Draft C with changes to: * timescale - Now a 2 month contest. * Licensing - Now a BSD License. * Scoring - Weighting as requested by Matzon, but with Innovation category instead of Originality. Hopefully we're there now. If this is acceptable, I'll raise it to Issue 1 this evening which will be the final version. LWJGL16 Rules (Draft C) The competition shall: - start at 00:00 UTC on Saturday 28th May 2005 - finish at 24:00 UTC on Monday 1st August 2005 The application shall: - work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE. - be packaged as one or more jars using the gzip format. - as packed jars, consist of no more than 16384 bytes, excluding libraries. - use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org. - optionally use the FMOD library available from www.fmod.org. - work (without sound) if MIDI is used, but a soundbank is not available. - be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred). - be compatible with a BSD License. The application shall not: - require any libraries except those identified above. - use any resources external to the jar(s). - contain offensive material. - contain any unlicenced copyright material, trademarks or patents. Games shall be judged on: - Gameplay (50 points) - Innovation (25 points) - Graphics (10 points) - Sound (10 points) - Cross-platform (5 points) Notes: 1. A client-server architecture is permitted, provided the server is implemented in java and the total number of bytes of both client and server jars does not exceed 16384 bytes. 2. It is desirable that the application does not require a soundbank to be installed. 3. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X. |
Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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oNyx
JGO Kernel Posts: 2943 Medals: 5
pixels! :x
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Reply #110 on:
2005-05-25 00:20:39 » |
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The scoring could be simpler... like an X out of 10 thing for only two categories - 1. the game and 2. how impressive it is from the tech angle.
#1 is how much fun it is too play, how cool it looks, how original and the like and #2 is for balancing out the extra work, by rewarding things like... dunno... models, sound/music or generally everything which would be hard to do with that limit.
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Markus_Persson
JGO Kernel Posts: 2092 Medals: 10
Mojang Specifications
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Reply #111 on:
2005-05-25 01:51:40 » |
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Wait.. why do we have to open source the entries?
I won't join this competition, then. =/
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oNyx
JGO Kernel Posts: 2943 Medals: 5
pixels! :x
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Reply #112 on:
2005-05-25 02:17:11 » |
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*scrolls up* Ye, bad idea. /me points at that draft... http://kaioa.com/k/4kreadmedraft.txt"This game may be electronically distributed only at NO CHARGE to the recipient in its current state, MUST include this .txt file, and may NOT be modified IN ANY WAY. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES IS THIS GAME TO BE DISTRIBUTED ON CD-ROM WITHOUT PRIOR WRITTEN PERMISSION." That's good enough. |
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #113 on:
2005-05-25 04:48:03 » |
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Who cares about the source after all. It'll be 16k of hacked shite that's useless to anyone else. I too would like to cut down on the scoring, to something simple like: FUN TECH and not actually rate them on a scale at all, just rank them. Then there'd be two prizes, one for the must fun game and one for the coolest tech. And it's conceivable that one game will win both. There can be a runner up in each category, and an honourable mention in each. By de-emphasising graphics, sound, and originality we're keeping to the spirit of the compo which is tiny games written by programmers to impress other programmers. Cas |
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blahblahblahh
JGO Kernel Posts: 4575
http://t-machine.org
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Reply #114 on:
2005-05-25 05:32:27 » |
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I agree with the "innovative" category instead of "originality." If we had judged the 4K games with originality, those Tetris, Snake, etc clones would have bit the dust FAST.
Actually, that's exactly what happened in my case. How can you possibly ignore originality in a *games* contest? The amount of effort it takes to remake tetris very well is a small fration of what it takes to do the same with a new game of your own inventing. Unless you constrain *everyone* to doing remakes, you will create a hugely unfair landscape.
Regarding the two month issue.. that's worth some debate.
If you read back to the earlier conversations on competitions, you'll find many posts on the topic, and a poll. |
malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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Alan_W
JGO Ninja Posts: 734 Medals: 8
Java tames rock!
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Reply #115 on:
2005-05-25 05:39:38 » |
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Looks like we are diverging again  I am Ok with simplifying the scoring. Suggest:
- GamePlay (50 points)
- Technique (50 points)
Looks like we don't have a consensus on licensing. Note that the BSD license does allow source or binary distributions, and I can't actually see anything in it making a source distribution compulsary.
Copyright (c) <YEAR>, <OWNER>
All rights reserved.
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
Neither the name of the <ORGANIZATION> nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
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Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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Markus_Persson
JGO Kernel Posts: 2092 Medals: 10
Mojang Specifications
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Reply #116 on:
2005-05-25 05:49:01 » |
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I don't see why I should have to make my entry to the competition Free (as in freedom).
I probably would anyway, but being forced to is enough to make me back out.
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Alan_W
JGO Ninja Posts: 734 Medals: 8
Java tames rock!
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Reply #117 on:
2005-05-25 06:03:54 » |
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I don't see why I should have to make my entry to the competition Free (as in freedom).
I probably would anyway, but being forced to is enough to make me back out. It's very doubtful that a 16k program tagged onto several 100k of library is a good balance for a saleable program. Also Woogley wants to put up the entries on his new site. I am doing my best to accomodate as many people's views as possible, but I feel that this is contrary to the spirit of the competition and will not be taking it up. Sorry Alan :-/ |
Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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nonnus29
JGO Ninja Posts: 687
Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco
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Reply #118 on:
2005-05-25 06:11:14 » |
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Actually, that's exactly what happened in my case. How can you possibly ignore originality in a *games* contest?
The amount of effort it takes to remake tetris very well is a small fration of what it takes to do the same with a new game of your own inventing. Yeah, right. Then why did you give the tetris clone some of your highest scores when you judged the 4k entries? edit; I also fail to see why source should be required; like Cas said its going to be 16k of shiza that will be indecipherable by anyone other than the orginal programmer (then not even by him 2 months later). It wasn't required on the 4k contest was it? So why here? |
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kevglass
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 5214 Medals: 49
Mentally unstable, best avoided.
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Reply #119 on:
2005-05-25 06:26:46 » |
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Does it really have to get this complicated? If someone wants to give the source, good, otherwise, who cares? If someone wants to sell their game, good, if not, then who cares? The works are still owned by the creator.
You've got a scoring system, you've got a size limit, you've got allowed libraries, just need judges and dates and you're ready to go.
Kev
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