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  Libraries vs. Pure Java  (Read 1370 times)
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Offline Jacob Pickens
« Posted 2014-03-03 06:47:25 »

What would you guys prefer and why?

I personally really liked slick2D and LWJGL because it makes everything so simple, but I tend to not be able to get the game to a distributable format. (I can't export it without it crashing when opened. It's gotta be a library issue.)

I've been using pure java ever since. I'm really liking that, too, but it seems to get really repetitive and just useless time put into a project to do no important things.

I'd much rather code the core of the game then actually have to remake a buffer strategy and a GameStateManager each time.

So, what would you guys recommend. Whats the best way to go? I'm really just wanting people to shine a different light on everything.
Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2014-03-03 06:59:57 »

I use Slick2d and LWJGL, I don't see much purpose behind building my own boilerplate when Slick allows me to commercialize my product anyway, ya'know?

As for exporting it to a distributionable .jar/.exe, for now I use a program called Jarsplice.
http://ninjacave.com/jarsplice

In the future I'll convert to using an EXE format though. but either way, why would you go through the huge paid of making a boilerplate instead of just learning how to properly export slick2d? That seems odd, wouldn't it be easier/faster to figure out how to export slick than to build a boilerplate? Shocked

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #2 - Posted 2014-03-03 07:05:22 »

Hah trust me it is. I end up giving up on the project before even getting out of the behind the scenes part. Its honestly so hard and you usually get hung up on some stupid glitch and just flip your sh*t. Tongue But, hopefully, if you get through the pain and suffering, you can have some smooth sailing from there! Now that I think about it, why didn't i just straight out in smooth waters (Slick2D). Why did i even start learning Java game dev in general in the choppy waters of my own boiler plate library. Anyways, thanks!
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Offline HeroesGraveDev

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2014-03-03 07:24:49 »

The creator of Slick2D now uses LibGDX.

As for me, I write the code myself when possible, but if I cannot match already existing code in efficiency/performance, I'll take that.

Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #4 - Posted 2014-03-03 07:26:17 »

So, your recommendations? LibGDX or Slick2D to start out as a library
Offline BurntPizza
« Reply #5 - Posted 2014-03-03 07:30:13 »

I take the same approach as Heroes, with an addendum: If it's simply not worth the time/effort to reproduce what someone else has done, then I won't. Example: I'm not about to write my own version of windows just because I want something halfway between 7 and 8.

So, your recommendations? LibGDX or Slick2D to start out as a library

libGDX, it will still be applicable and relevant when your interest and abilities grow later. Plus it has a larger userbase and is growing instead of being mostly dead. (citation needed)

Edit: and if you suffer from project setup/build process, libGDX has an up on slick as well: http://www.aurelienribon.com/blog/2012/09/libgdx-project-setup-v3-0-0/
Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2014-03-03 07:46:50 »

I recommend LibGDX, even though I am currently using Slick. (I know right?)

LibGDX just makes sense to switch to if you haven't already learned the ins and outs of Slick2d and just don't feel like relearning a different foundation. Wink


- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #7 - Posted 2014-03-03 07:48:31 »

Ur not telling me u made that SixtyGig game in Slick right?
Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:03:55 »

Ur not telling me u made that SixtyGig game in Slick right?

Yes, SixtyGig is a slick2d based game. Wink

Slick2D is actually still a very good foundation, it's just lacking some of the latest and greatest. But really, there's no reason you can't still use it. It's not like your game will suddenly evaporate. Cheesy

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #9 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:09:54 »

Actaully when I was programming Project Raft (Before I said screw slick2D I'm coding pure Java!) my game would randomly evaporate. It would suddenly not want to launch. UK after I put it through jarsplice and such.

Now that ik SixtyGig was made in Slick2D though, you have breathed new life into that library. (for me at least Tongue) How long did it take to make that game anyways. (P.S. It's beautiful)
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Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:13:47 »

Actaully when I was programming Project Raft (Before I said screw slick2D I'm coding pure Java!) my game would randomly evaporate. It would suddenly not want to launch. UK after I put it through jarsplice and such.

Now that ik SixtyGig was made in Slick2D though, you have breathed new life into that library. (for me at least Tongue) How long did it take to make that game anyways. (P.S. It's beautiful)

Really Slick isn't the reason it looks like it does, if I had used LibGDX you probably wouldn't of noticed the difference, aside from being a little bit further behind in development since my knowledge of Slick is a bit stronger.

But I started work on this project on Jan 28th, 2014. So just slightly over a month ago. (About a Month and a week?)

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #11 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:21:26 »

You obviously used sprite sheets then or the loading time word be ghastly.
Offline kpars

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Radirius Software Developer


« Reply #12 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:27:15 »

I may end up porting my game G581G to Slick2D at some point when it's finished.

It works with LWJGL, and all of the methods are very similar to that of Java2D's, so it wouldn't be too hard to accomplish such a thing.

That is, if people still like Slick2D by then. I don't know how many times I've been bashed for using technology that nobody agrees with.  Emo

But technology is like music. No matter what genre you like, no matter what you're a big fan of, somebody out there is going to hate it, regardless.

- Jev

Check out #JGO on EsperNet IRC! | Check out the MERCury 2D Java Game Library! | Also, Check out My Site
Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #13 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:31:24 »

You obviously used sprite sheets then or the loading time word be ghastly.

Yep, there are quite a lot of sprite sheets. Wink

The GUI/Interface stuff isn't, but the characters and map elements are.

I may end up porting my game G581G to Slick2D at some point when it's finished.

It works with LWJGL, and all of the methods are very similar to that of Java2D's, so it wouldn't be too hard to accomplish such a thing.

That is, if people still like Slick2D by then. I don't know how many times I've been bashed for using technology that nobody agrees with.  Emo

But technology is like music. No matter what genre you like, no matter what you're a big fan of, somebody out there is going to hate it, regardless.

- Jev

Well, the way I see it, is the people who are going to play my game don't give 2 darns how I made the game, as long as it's fun and works. Cheesy

There are still games out there that use Slick2d, for example, Towns (townsgame.com) is very popular, still recent, sells for $14 a pop and is built up on Slick2d.

So the way I see it, is using Slick2D is like driving a classic car, it's still gets the job done and looks great going it, it just might have an 8-Track instead of an iPod dock.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #14 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:33:31 »

The only reason I could see myself even using LibGDX would be for its cross-platform ability, but is giving up simplicity really worth cross-platform support. Not to mention that those other platforms cost money to even market on. Desktop and HTML5 are the only decent platform that would be worth investing in IMO.

On the topic of Slick2D where would you find some nice tutorials on the such. (Ranging from absolute beginner to some intermediate)
Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:37:26 »

The only reason I could see myself even using LibGDX would be for its cross-platform ability, but is giving up simplicity really worth cross-platform support. Not to mention that those other platforms cost money to even market on. Desktop and HTML5 are the only decent platform that would be worth investing in IMO.

Guess it depends on you, your goals, etc. For example, I plan to get my game on Stream via Greenlight. Will I actually get it published this way? I have no idea. But just getting the chance to *put* it on Greenlight (not even get it approved/posted for sale) comes with a $100 entry fee, and I am more than willing to pay that even if it doesn't work out and I never get published. Smiley

If I was planning on going multiplatform, I wouldn't even blink at the costs to get into the market. If you have a quality product, you'll make back the little fees along the way. Cheesy

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline kpars

JGO Wizard


Medals: 75
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years


Radirius Software Developer


« Reply #16 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:37:41 »

Well, the way I see it, is the people who are going to play my game don't give 2 darns how I made the game, as long as it's fun and works. Cheesy

That's the thing: It working.

As far as I have discovered, Graphics2D has no good Full-Screen support nor Image Filtering by default, AFAIK.

I have a fear of people downloading the game : Getting mad at how it's not in Full-Screen : Getting mad at how the pixels look stretched out if it does happen to work in Full-Screen because of the lack of filtering.

- Jev.

Check out #JGO on EsperNet IRC! | Check out the MERCury 2D Java Game Library! | Also, Check out My Site
Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #17 - Posted 2014-03-03 08:46:21 »

Honestly, I would put it on Desura instead. I put my game, Project Raft, on there and it sold pretty well. (IMO) They are free to get your game on there. Only problem, takes about a month of back to back discussion with a moderator to get things straight, but once they are its pretty great! Maybe you don't wanna wait though. Then itch.io is the place for you. Though it doesn't have as much users like Desura or Steam, it is really developer friendly. I would expect its popularity to grow a lot in the next few years.

Itch:
http://itch.io/

Desura:
http://www.desura.com/
Offline SHC
« Reply #18 - Posted 2014-03-03 17:03:39 »

I prefer to write all the boilerplate code I could write myself, cause this way, I can learn what is actually going on under the hood.

Offline Troubleshoots

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Damn maths.


« Reply #19 - Posted 2014-03-03 17:07:24 »

LWJGL:

Pros:
  • Low level, a lot of flexibility
  • Maintained, up to date

Cons:
  • Relatively difficult to use
  • A lot of work to do
  • Desktop only

Slick2D:

Pros:
  • Easy to use

Cons:
  • Unmaintained & old
  • Desktop only

LibGDX:

Pros:
  • Relatively easy to use
  • Multi-platform, iOS, Android & Desktop
  • Maintained, up to date
  • Access to low level code
  • Scene2D
  • Lots of good documentation

Cons:
  • Requires some LWJGL/OpenGL knowledge

Why are all OpenGL tutorials written in Brainf**k?
Offline lcass
« Reply #20 - Posted 2014-03-03 21:27:54 »

I have always coded in pure java and have only begun to use librarys due to javas inability to use the GPU. I am considering writing scripts in cuda then running them through C++ or programming in C++ entirely because of the fact java does not like hardware.
Offline kpars

JGO Wizard


Medals: 75
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years


Radirius Software Developer


« Reply #21 - Posted 2014-03-03 21:40:01 »

Java2D/Graphics2D's rendering pipeline supports hardware acceleration by the GPU, though not on all operating systems.

- Jev

Check out #JGO on EsperNet IRC! | Check out the MERCury 2D Java Game Library! | Also, Check out My Site
Offline digdugdiggy

Senior Newbie





« Reply #22 - Posted 2014-03-03 22:14:22 »

I started on my first game with just pure java. Then I needed audio, got a simple library for that. Next I needed TMX maps, got another little library for that.

Then I realized libGDX has everything I needed. I spend about 2 months struggling to implement my game in pure java, then I just redid it all in about a week with libGDX. Way easier! Smiley
Offline kpars

JGO Wizard


Medals: 75
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years


Radirius Software Developer


« Reply #23 - Posted 2014-03-03 22:21:52 »

Soon, I will be enlightened and then use LibGDX for everything.

... Soon.

- Jev

Check out #JGO on EsperNet IRC! | Check out the MERCury 2D Java Game Library! | Also, Check out My Site
Offline BurntPizza
« Reply #24 - Posted 2014-03-03 22:38:47 »

Soon, I will be enlightened and then use LibGDX for everything.

... Soon.

- Jev

It is glorious. Once you attain enlightenment, you never look back but to scorn the old ways, disbelieving that you ever found truth in them.
"What do you believe in?" "LibGDX."

Circle-jerking and off-topicness aside, I beg the question(s): if you use a library written solely in Java, is that not still pure Java? Where does the standard library (read: LIBRARY) come in to this? Is it still pure if you yourself never touch the natives? Or is the syntax of a C wrapper to 'unclean?' What exactly does this 'pure java' buzzword even mean?
Offline opiop65

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Medals: 153
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JumpButton Studios


« Reply #25 - Posted 2014-03-03 22:46:39 »

Well... I assume you aren't serious about that... but:

Pure Java meaning just the libraries that come with Java when you download it. No libraries that someone else besides the Java developers has developed. Realistically it's a silly idea, but it can be done. The quality of the game in this case would depend heavily upon the developer though, as they will need to know much about how Java2D works to fully utilize it's "power".

I do sort of agree with you though. Libraries are libraries, they help you out when you don't have the will or time or the knowledge to develop your own solution. I know, and hate the feeling sometimes, of not using all but my own code. I feel almost as if I'm a bad programmer because I couldn't have thought of that on my own. Especially if it was a simple solution. I think as programmers, many of us have big egos when it comes to problem solving, me included. I want to be the sole creator of my game (in terms of code, other people can help but they cannot use libraries either! Tongue ) because then I know I solved all the problems. It's a silly way to think, and very unproductive, but I've been forcing myself out of this mindset slowly. It burns!

Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #26 - Posted 2014-03-03 22:49:04 »

That is exactly how I work Opiop65, then I also don't have to spend 15 minutes putting each native through JarSplice to distribute it. I just slap it into a runnable jar file.
Offline opiop65

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JumpButton Studios


« Reply #27 - Posted 2014-03-03 22:56:00 »

That's not entirely what I meant though. I don't use Java2D, I use LWJGL, which still requires JarSplice to link natives. I meant other libraries for networking, sound etc... I generally try to write my own code. But, don't be afraid of JarSplicer or using libraries. I think your issue is your lack of (no offense) experience dealing with libraries. Creating a runnable program with them is a few clicks, its very easy. My issue is that I don't like using them because I have too much of an ego. That might be your issue too, but until you get over the whole JarSplice thing you shouldn't discount libraries.

Offline Jacob Pickens
« Reply #28 - Posted 2014-03-03 23:00:49 »

JarSplice is absolutely terrifying to me. (I do have a rather big ego as well Tongue) When I was making Project Raft (I know don't laugh Tongue) I had started off using Slick2D. (Wouldve made the game wayyyy better) Then I couldn't distribute it for some strange thing with JarSplice (Probably something to do with me) So I restarted. It did the same thing. So I finally said f*** it (After 2 weeks of fooling around with Slick2D) and i just went completely boiler plate. Thats why I am terrified of libraries.
Offline opiop65

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Medals: 153
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JumpButton Studios


« Reply #29 - Posted 2014-03-03 23:15:02 »

That's a trivial problem to solve, as is JarSplice. Literally all you do is point the program to the natives, give it the libraries and the jar you generated from Eclipse, and then give JarSplice the main class and boom, done. If you want I can post a tutorial tonight with pictures explaining everything instead of doing my 12 page math packet!

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