Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (78)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (426)
Games in Android Showcase (89)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (466)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: 1 [2]
  ignore  |  Print  
  Kickstarter - Headless JVM for iOS  (Read 9520 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #30 - Posted 2011-08-26 12:46:32 »

Apple are entirely fine with Java on iOS - so long as it doesn't have the ability to JIT code. This is the root of their objection. Excelsior JET is an AOT compiler that just so happens to be every bit as good (well ok let's be honest, it's a bit better) than the Sun JRE.

The XMLVM solution has the problem that it is shit. I can qualify "shit" with the following: it is a nightmare to figure out; it is virtually unsupported; as it is not a certified JVM it is full of little idiosyncrasies in the way that it works that are likely to catch you out; it most likely doesn't have particularly great garbage collection (though I couldn't say for sure); and the code it generates is little faster than interpreted, which is no good for anything vaguely heavyweight.

Cas Smiley

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 22


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #31 - Posted 2011-08-26 13:49:15 »

Quote
Apple are entirely fine with Java on iOS - so long as it doesn't have the ability to JIT code. This is the root of their objection. Excelsior JET is an AOT compiler that just so happens to be every bit as good (well ok let's be honest, it's a bit better) than the Sun JRE.

Reference or at least source? And I said Apple won't accept a JVM on iPhone - AOT is a different story.

Quote
The XMLVM solution has the problem that it is shit. I can qualify "shit" with the following: it is a nightmare to figure out; it is virtually unsupported; as it is not a certified JVM it is full of little idiosyncrasies in the way that it works that are likely to catch you out; it most likely doesn't have particularly great garbage collection (though I couldn't say for sure); and the code it generates is little faster than interpreted, which is no good for anything vaguely heavyweight.

That comes from your masses of experience with it does it? I don't think the version I use is good for anything heavyweight, however the C/register based backend shows impressive performance. Everything you've put above just smacks as I took a 5 minute look at it and I couldn't get it working.

I think you'd agree you're lazy in this department, you just want it to work with no changes to your java or process at all, which is of course entirely understandable from a business point of view. However, there are two choices here:

a) Invest a cubic-shit-tonne of cash to someone else doing this.

b) Help do the work yourself (and of course potentially waste effort better spent on producing games)

I do think it's a bit off criticizing the hard work of others over many hours, when you haven't actually tried it in earnest.

Kev

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 22


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #32 - Posted 2011-08-26 13:53:21 »

Quote
Being at the complete mercy of such a nasty company isn't a way to run a business.

For what it's worth, I totally agree with you. However, thats life I guess - want the market, play the game. Can't say I'm sure I'll bother again, the sales on Android are like x2 what they are on iPhone for my genre. Probably will if it costs me nothing (like currently).

Kev

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Cero
« Reply #33 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:22:11 »

Quote
I do think it's a bit off criticizing the hard work of others over many hours, when you haven't actually tried it in earnest.

Well that concept is all wrong.
If something is somebody's job and he or she isn't doing a good enough job, and people notice, they can criticize.
If not you couldn't even criticize a reckless bus driver, just because you have never driven a bus.

Gaming example: Fallout 3 and vegas had a lot of annoying bugs, even though I may not be able to write code that vast to begin with, it's their job to do as best as they can; and there are quality expectancies in the industry.
JVM/compiler engineering same story. Whoever writes one should make sure its industry standard quality.


Also
Quote
Excelsior JET is an AOT compiler that just so happens to be every bit as good (well ok let's be honest, it's a bit better) than the Sun JRE
Since Java belongs to Sun, was made by Sun, by default, Sun's JVM and compiler should be the very very best.

bottom line: it's their job to do this, so you can bitch about it.

Offline Z-Man
« Reply #34 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:25:12 »

Quote
Since XMLVM is currently in an early development phase we do not provide a stable release. All releases currently offered are experimental development releases that are not to be used in a production environment.
To be fair XMLVM is still an early development phase so judging it now before it even has a stable release is a bit premature. That quote is directly from the XMLVM download page, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 22


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #35 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:25:18 »

Quote
Well that concept is all wrong.
If something is somebody's job and he or she isn't doing a good enough job, and people notice, they can criticize.
If not you couldn't even criticize a reckless bus driver, just because you have never driven a bus.

Ah, but in this case we'd be criticizing the bus driver having never even seen them drive a bus?

Kev

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 22


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #36 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:26:22 »

Quote
To be fair XMLVM is still an early development phase so judging it now before it even has a stable release is a bit premature. That quote is directly from the XMLVM download page.

Agreed, though that comment is possible not quite as true for the last version which built to Objective-C, you know the one I'm using for Legends of Yore.

Kev

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #37 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:28:11 »

Quote
Being at the complete mercy of such a nasty company isn't a way to run a business.

For what it's worth, I totally agree with you. However, thats life I guess - want the market, play the game. Can't say I'm sure I'll bother again, the sales on Android are like x2 what they are on iPhone for my genre. Probably will if it costs me nothing (like currently).

Kev

Yeah, the arbitrary Apple accept/reject is the main reason I haven't tried anything serious on iPhone (XMLVM or otherwise). I've heard too many horror stories about people's apps being rejected (or initially accepted, then arbitrarily rejected) with no proper appeals process or even basic feedback. If you're a popular app you can get enough outrage on your side but as a small startup that's not really an option.

But hell, what do I know - my only attempt at a commercial app I abandoned because no bugger liked it.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 22


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #38 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:29:43 »

The process can be pretty painful, but if you have the right sort of game I suspect the reward is great. The feedback process on rejections is much better in the last 6 months for me.

Kev

PS. Which game wasn't liked? I loved the helicopter majig.

Offline namrog84

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
Projects: 4


Keep programming!


« Reply #39 - Posted 2011-08-26 15:44:29 »

Odd timing and slightly off topic but I just got an email from Apple

Quote
Dear namrog84,

We are pleased to announce the availability of the auto-ingest tool, a new tool that lets you automatically retrieve your daily and weekly reports from the Sales and Trends module. The auto-ingest tool is a Java-based script that will run [size=10pt]on any operating system that supports Java 1.6 or later. [/size]Before you begin using the tool, we strongly urge you to read the App Store Sales and Trends Guide and note the following:

    * Use of this tool is monitored.
    * If your system will be set up to automatically pull daily or weekly reports, allow 15-minute intervals between pulls.
    * For further information about daily and weekly report availability, refer to the App Store Sales and Trends Guide.

If you have any questions, contact us.

Regards,

The App Store team

"Apple provides access to a Java based tool to allow you to automate the download of your iTunes Connect
Sales and Trends reports.
" from inside apple pdf that came with email

"You must have Java installed on the machine where you are running the Apple auto-ingest tool. The tool will work as
expected with Java version 1.6 or above
." -from inside apple pdf that came with email

So even though Apple may not like java on the iOS.  This in my mind proves they don't completely despise java. Because they are releasing stuff in Java still.

I find it slightly funny as this relates to sales and trends of the iOS app store sales/downloads... And they are using Java.
Sooo close, yet soo far...

------------------------------------------------------------------------(2nd post)-----------

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/mkarg/archive/2010/09/10/apple-finally-permits-java-iphone-when-will-oracle-deliver
http://www.java.net/external?url=http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/09/09statement.html
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/apple-lets-in-java-and-flash-should-android-be-worried/2091

I thought Flash or something now has or will soon have a "export to iOS" where it packages everything together differently specifically for it.
Do you think Oracle(Sun) are/were working on anything and just haven't announced it yet?

Where its not a JIT VM but a complete packaged together AOT specifically for the iOS?

------------------------------------------------------------------------(3rd post)-----------

Sun was originally talking with a company called InnaWorks to do what I think we were discussing here
http://www.innaworks.com/alchemo-for-iphone-java-me-j2me-to-iphone-porting/
http://www.innaworks.com/
"Targeting multiple mobile platforms? Had enough of porting?
Convert your Java ME applications to Android, BREW, Brew MP, iPhone, Adobe Flash Player and Windows Mobile with alcheMo"

Has anyone tried innaworks? (if its even released?)



"Experience is what you get when you did not get what you wanted"
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #40 - Posted 2011-08-26 16:19:01 »

Too right I wasted 5 minutes on it. Actually I spent more than a day just trying to chase down documentation about what was possible with it. Long story short: it doesn't do what I want it to, and what it does do, is a colossal pain to make it work. Excelsior JET would do precisely what I want (and probably quite a lot of other people too), with no headaches, and almost no work. I'd pay $10k for that straight up. My money aligned with my mouth.

Cas Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #41 - Posted 2011-08-26 16:30:01 »

The process can be pretty painful, but if you have the right sort of game I suspect the reward is great. The feedback process on rejections is much better in the last 6 months for me.

Well that's good to hear. I guess "iStore feedback process better now" isn't the kind of news article that gets lots of coverage.

Quote
PS. Which game wasn't liked? I loved the helicopter majig.

Thanks, but everyone else seemed to hate it. Either they disliked the controls/physics, or they wanted it to be simpler, or they wanted 'more realistic' graphics, or it felt too much like Flash. Basically most of the feedback was "it's ok, but I want it to be [completely different game]", so I pretty much got disillusioned with the whole thing.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Pages: 1 [2]
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

xsi3rr4x (73 views)
2014-04-15 18:08:23

BurntPizza (68 views)
2014-04-15 03:46:01

UprightPath (79 views)
2014-04-14 17:39:50

UprightPath (65 views)
2014-04-14 17:35:47

Porlus (80 views)
2014-04-14 15:48:38

tom_mai78101 (104 views)
2014-04-10 04:04:31

BurntPizza (164 views)
2014-04-08 23:06:04

tom_mai78101 (260 views)
2014-04-05 13:34:39

trollwarrior1 (210 views)
2014-04-04 12:06:45

CJLetsGame (220 views)
2014-04-01 02:16:10
List of Learning Resources
by SHC
2014-04-18 03:17:39

List of Learning Resources
by Longarmx
2014-04-08 03:14:44

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-05 13:51:37

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:46

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:37

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:51

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:34

Anonymous/Local/Inner class gotchas
by Roquen
2014-03-11 15:22:30
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!