JL235
JGO Ninja  Posts: 660 Medals: 21
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Reply #30 on:
2011-11-03 15:26:15 » |
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Funny, I use JavaScript daily and run a single-page-app framework with thousands of lines of code and I'm using classes. Seems to work just fine. And it's not a regular web page app, it's designed for television, meaning all input interaction must be coded and handled in code.
Just because you don't know better doesn't make JavaScript bad, there are tons of libraries out there, frameworks, etc. that can help tremendously.
You can't be using classes, because Javascript doesn't have them. You are using a hack you think it is smart because nobody else noticed how much time you waste with this crap yet. Have you even looked at libraries like JS Class? 1
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| var Animal = new JS.Class({
initialize: function(name) {
this.name = name;
},
speak: function(things) {
return 'My name is ' + this.name + ' and I like ' + things;
}
});
var Dog = new JS.Class(Animal, {
speak: function(stuff) {
return this.callSuper().toUpperCase() + '!';
},
huntForBones: function(garden) {
}
}); |
Looks very neat and tidy, and even supports standard things like calling super methods, interfaces, hooks for meta programming, full reflection for it's OO system, and being able to attach Ruby style blocks onto methods. That's really the point of JS, that you can build something like this. |
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oNyx
JGO Kernel Posts: 2943 Medals: 5
pixels! :x
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Reply #31 on:
2011-11-03 15:55:30 » |
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You can have something like classes and you can have inheritance, mixins, traits, and all that other stuff.
Personally, I really like JavaScript. Well, OK. Function scope is completely retarded and there were a bunch of other bad decisions being made, but it's lots of fun nonetheless. It doesn't scale that well though. I wouldn't want to work on a JS project with >5kloc.
I also think that Dart is kinda neat in theory. I just can't see it succeed. I mean, even if Chrome would get >50%, it would look pretty bad for Dart. Chrome + Android + Chrome OS + server-sided Dart... maaaaybe. Still somewhat weak.
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krasse
Sr. Member Posts: 287 Medals: 14
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Reply #32 on:
2011-11-03 17:55:45 » |
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I once hated JS but now I actually like it when I finally learned about the "crappy" design patterns to simulate inheritance. Just wanted to make an important contribution to this thread  |
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Games published by our own members! Go get 'em! 
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel  Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #33 on:
2011-11-03 18:25:58 » |
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I still think that the crux of the issue is the fact that you're forced to use it whether you want to or not. I think I might have said in another thread it's like telling everybody they've got to speak French from now on. It's not that there's anything wrong with French or that it's a crap language - it's the fact that I'm an English speaker. Cas  |
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ra4king
JGO Kernel Posts: 3156 Medals: 196
I'm the King!
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Reply #34 on:
2011-11-03 19:19:17 » |
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It's not that there's anything wrong with French or that it's a crap language
hmmmmm are you implying that French is a crap language? |
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Riven
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 5870 Medals: 255
Hand over your head.
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Reply #35 on:
2011-11-03 19:22:10 » |
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It's not that there's anything wrong with French or that it's a crap language
hmmmmm are you implying that French is a crap language? |
Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾ Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings |
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theagentd
JGO Wizard Posts: 1392 Medals: 88
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Reply #36 on:
2011-11-03 19:32:18 » |
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Did you know French can be pronounced using Java! You'll just have to use substring on each word to remove a random number of letters at the end of each word. About 1-3 should be fine.
[/joke]
French for non-French people!
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There is no god.
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longino
JGO n00b Posts: 35
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Reply #37 on:
2011-11-03 19:39:23 » |
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Looks very neat and tidy, and even supports standard things like calling super methods, interfaces, hooks for meta programming, full reflection for it's OO system, and being able to attach Ruby style blocks onto methods.
That's really the point of JS, that you can build something like this.
First, it is a hack, not a language feature. Second, the very existence of it is evidence of crappiness of Javascript. Why go through such trouble if you can get it for free in other languages? Third, no, it doesn't look good. Manual labor is not intelligence. We shouldn't have to build something like this, it should be part of the language. |
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theagentd
JGO Wizard Posts: 1392 Medals: 88
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Reply #38 on:
2011-11-03 19:54:37 » |
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Looks very neat and tidy, and even supports standard things like calling super methods, interfaces, hooks for meta programming, full reflection for it's OO system, and being able to attach Ruby style blocks onto methods.
That's really the point of JS, that you can build something like this.
First, it is a hack, not a language feature. Second, the very existence of it is evidence of crappiness of Javascript. Why go through such trouble if you can get it for free in other languages? Third, no, it doesn't look good. Manual labor is not intelligence. We shouldn't have to build something like this, it should be part of the language. 1. Find a pool. 2. Cool off. 3.  4. Profit for everyone at JGO! But seriously, you can say what you want about Javascript, but it's not really relevant or interesting here. I haven't done any Javascript, but from what I've heard I don't think I like it either. xD |
There is no god.
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lhkbob
JGO Neuromancer Posts: 1174 Medals: 35
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Reply #39 on:
2011-11-03 20:31:44 » |
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Obvious troll is obvious, but I'm falling for it anyway. Your arguments make no sense. OO and functions are all just hacks, clearly we should program in assembly because, God forbid if we had to build something onto a language in order to make it usable.
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Games published by our own members! Go get 'em! 
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sproingie
JGO Strike Force Posts: 897 Medals: 55
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Reply #40 on:
2011-11-03 20:43:23 » |
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I think we can all agree that Javascript is a pretty terrible compiler target though.
If you use === instead of == in your language, then most of the quirks (like 0 == '') go away. All of the closure and prototype stuff then allows you to build pretty much anything on top, as it's such a flexible language. So I'd disagree with you. Sure, it's not bad as a source language, warts like the need for === aside. But it's still not a very good compiler target, in that it doesn't easily map back to source lines (having not even anything like #line, let alone a debugger format), it lacks typed operations when the source compiler could make use of them, and that it requires some fairly fancy rules in itself to parse and evaluate. Compiling straight to bytecode might be too low-level, but javascript just isn't intended to be a backend for other languages. |
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longino
JGO n00b Posts: 35
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Reply #41 on:
2011-11-03 23:11:19 » |
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God forbid if we had to build something onto a language in order to make it usable.
You just confirmed what I have said so far. JavaScript is unusable, and needs hacks in order to make it look like something better. It is a pain in the ass. |
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sproingie
JGO Strike Force Posts: 897 Medals: 55
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Reply #42 on:
2011-11-03 23:36:49 » |
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longino seems to be confusing the activity on this thread with the silly notion that anyone gives a crap about what he has to say.  |
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lhkbob
JGO Neuromancer Posts: 1174 Medals: 35
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Reply #43 on:
2011-11-03 23:56:49 » |
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God forbid if we had to build something onto a language in order to make it usable.
You just confirmed what I have said so far. You just missed my sarcasm. Taking your reasoning, one could argue that python is better than Java because it supports lists and dictionaries in a more primitive form. With Java, you have to use the collections API that was built with the language. I might as well quit programming now because it's absurd that you have to define your own functions and types to get what you want. I'm stretching a little bit, but it's the same argument you're making. JavaScript must be terrible because it exposes the tools to support language extensions. Because of this, they didn't need to explicitly add support, someone else would do it. If JavaScript had a better runtime library like Java, one could imagine that the class support, or JQuery-like support, would be included for those who wished to use it. But you could just add a <script/> which is about the same as an import or include, and tada you're good. And now it's my turn to troll. You seem to like common lisp, I find it to be the most difficult language to read, it has terrible support for type definitions, and the need for macros clearly shows that it has flaws in its language model. |
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sproingie
JGO Strike Force Posts: 897 Medals: 55
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Reply #44 on:
2011-11-04 00:35:00 » |
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Hey, just because one silly crank likes a language doesn't make it bad. The use of macros doesn't mean the model is flawed, it means it doesn't presume its model is the only one that can encompass all programs now and forever. There's a macro to CPS-transform its forms -- how cool is that? It sucks that macros aren't as first-class as they could be and that they're not hygienic, but I'm not too keen on scheme's complicated approach either.
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cylab
JGO Kernel Posts: 1940 Medals: 27
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Reply #45 on:
2011-11-04 04:50:38 » |
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It's not that there's anything wrong with French or that it's a crap language
Well, it is - i got the lowest grade in french at school, so I must know  |
Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #46 on:
2011-11-04 07:06:18 » |
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Calm down, he's just having one of those rants that we all like to have from time to time Cas |
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Son Of Cain
Jr. Member Posts: 72
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Reply #47 on:
2011-11-04 07:09:52 » |
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I second Cas on what he said a few posts earlier - the problem is not JavaScript, it is indeed the fact it is *the* standard for web development these days. But remember that good folks have been releasing us from most of its problems by providing nice libraries, such as jQuery, Prototype, Scriptaculous... which can handle nicely most of what you'd want to do in a web application these days.
Et je n'ai pas aucune problème avec le Français!
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ra4king
JGO Kernel Posts: 3156 Medals: 196
I'm the King!
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Reply #48 on:
2011-11-04 07:14:01 » |
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J'adore le Français!
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #49 on:
2011-11-04 07:19:02 » |
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I can't quite think of what strange chain of events must have occurred to force this situation on programmers, really. Since the dawn of computing we've used whatever language fits the problem best and whatever we're most comfortable with, and we've also largely been able to create new languages as an when necessary. Then this happens. Cas |
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Son Of Cain
Jr. Member Posts: 72
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Reply #50 on:
2011-11-04 07:23:16 » |
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I think it's one of those situations where the market and the availability for the end user weights in. JS was there in the early browsers, and at that time, "web development" was about writing PHP and handling client side validations and navigation with scripts. It was only later that people begun questioning about keeping state in web applications, and how flawed the request/response with pure hypertext was in other to achieve that.
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #51 on:
2011-11-04 07:29:05 » |
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Thing is even ordinary idiots like me saw this coming years ago. So I wonder why the powers that be didn't settle on some sort of common bytecode engine for scripting and start getting that into all their browsers, allowing people to use any language and compiling down to that? I mean, Java was an obvious candidate, but there have been various others like CLR and LLVM come along in the last decade. Cas |
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Son Of Cain
Jr. Member Posts: 72
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Reply #52 on:
2011-11-04 07:32:09 » |
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They couldn't agree, to this day, on a standard format for offline, office documents... so...
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oNyx
JGO Kernel Posts: 2943 Medals: 5
pixels! :x
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Reply #53 on:
2011-11-04 07:53:34 » |
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They couldn't agree, to this day, on a standard format for offline, office documents... so...
Bad example. It's very difficult to write specs for that stuff and it's also very difficult to verify the correctness of a particular implementation. Something like a VM is a lot easier. People know how to write specs for this kind of thing and you can describe every detail very precisely. Furthermore, you can easily and accurately verify the correctness of an implementation - you can write tests for everything. Even Microsoft's JScript thing was pretty accurate and they didn't have any specs for that. They reverse engineered it. I kid you not. Runtimes and VMs are really a zillion times more straightforward than document formats, HTML parsing (with it's million gotchas), or CSS. |
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #54 on:
2011-11-04 08:07:52 » |
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Indeed, if JamVM, an absolutely fully compliant Java 6 runtime with JIT, can weigh in 200kb of code then... well. It's not rocket science. Cas |
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JL235
JGO Ninja Posts: 660 Medals: 21
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Reply #55 on:
2011-11-04 08:12:23 » |
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Thing is even ordinary idiots like me saw this coming years ago. So I wonder why the powers that be didn't settle on some sort of common bytecode engine for scripting and start getting that into all their browsers, allowing people to use any language and compiling down to that?
That's a lot of work to do right, and you've then got a far more complex ecosystem, which needs far more time to mature. If netscape had of provided a bytecode engine instead, I think the reality is that Microsoft would have just pushed VBScript more for the web (since it is a client-side language), and everyone would end up using that instead. |
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Son Of Cain
Jr. Member Posts: 72
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Reply #56 on:
2011-11-04 09:19:33 » |
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They couldn't agree, to this day, on a standard format for offline, office documents... so...
Bad example. It's very difficult to write specs for that stuff and it's also very difficult to verify the correctness of a particular implementation. Something like a VM is a lot easier. People know how to write specs for this kind of thing and you can describe every detail very precisely. Furthermore, you can easily and accurately verify the correctness of an implementation - you can write tests for everything. Even Microsoft's JScript thing was pretty accurate and they didn't have any specs for that. They reverse engineered it. I kid you not. Runtimes and VMs are really a zillion times more straightforward than document formats, HTML parsing (with it's million gotchas), or CSS. Ok, bad example indeed. But the case with JS was not the first time that standards and sanity have been ignored for the sake of quick delivery to market, a (supposed) business model advantage, and ultimately, profit. Yes, designing a spec for a common, standard VM would have been best at the time, but it is easy to understand why it wasn't. |
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princec
« League of Dukes » JGO Kernel Posts: 8089 Medals: 95
Eh? Who? What? ... Me?
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Reply #57 on:
2011-11-04 09:24:05 » |
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I guess we'll never know unless someone carries the torch. <looks at feet> Cas |
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Roquen
JGO Strike Force Posts: 827 Medals: 25
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Reply #58 on:
2011-11-04 10:07:44 » |
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There are some advantages to a source-level specification and not a bytecode one -- different architectures can compile it in radically different ways, which is harder when you have assumptions about a machine model encoded into lower level code.
This not true for a well designed IR (high or low level). The low level IR spec of LLVM can hit tons of final targets and is flexible enough to support a huge spectrum of front-end language features. In my "fantasy" case..a high level, multi-paradigm IR, most people would never want to look at a source code version of it. Pretty much limited to front-end language designers and extreme masochists. It would probably need to look like a massively annotated s-expressions (think LISP) or m-expressions. You're barking up the wrong tree, this is a Java forum. Other than that, Javascript is an excellent language once you grasp the specification. It's a functional language that looks like an object orientated language, which causes a lot of confusion and results in incredibly crappy example code and tutorials all over the interwebs. Please don't let the incompetence of others influence your perspective on this language. The only thing Javascript desperately needs is a rocksolid IDE.
Totally agree. From a pure expressiveness standpoint, prototype based are significantly more powerful then OO. They were developed because the strict class hierarchies of OO is a big ugly chain on design. warts like the need for === aside.
Lots of languages have separate comparators for "is equal to" == and "is identical to" ===. Not supporting both would be officially bad. I can't quite think of what strange chain of events must have occurred to force this situation on programmers, really. Since the dawn of computing we've used whatever language fits the problem best and whatever we're most comfortable with, and we've also largely been able to create new languages as an when necessary. Then this happens.
So, where does C++ fit into this revisionist version of CS history? They couldn't agree, to this day, on a standard format for offline, office documents... so...
That's because: "Standards are great! Everyone should have one." always seems to rule the day. But the case with JS was not the first time that standards and sanity have been ignored for the sake of quick delivery to market, a (supposed) business model advantage, and ultimately, profit.
I don't see any huge flaws in the JS specification. But to carry with the theme of the comment, this isn't limited to direct/indirect profit motives. In fact it's better to get out an imperfect product in a timely manner than spending an excessive amount of time/resources attempting to create a perfect one...which is a forever moving forward target. To turn the microscope on Java: The bytecode spec is "designed" to be interpreted and makes no nods to the needs of a back-end compiler (ouch). The original bytecode verification code was a complete snake pit. At the high level, Java isn't a pure OO language, so to my mind it would be completely obvious that mutable primitive wrapper classes would have been a part of version 0.01 and they were not added until...wait! They still aren't there! Some very clever folks with experience creating languages worked on all of this, but ultimately time constraints have to weigh in and you can get everything perfect...you're lucky if you can hit pretty good. |
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loom_weaver
Full Member Posts: 224 Medals: 14
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Reply #59 on:
2011-11-04 10:59:40 » |
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I can't quite think of what strange chain of events must have occurred to force this situation on programmers, really. Since the dawn of computing we've used whatever language fits the problem best and whatever we're most comfortable with, and we've also largely been able to create new languages as an when necessary. Then this happens.
So, where does C++ fit into this revisionist version of CS history? The whole run everything in a browser travesty was a ZOMG... if everything thing is a webapp then all my problems will be solved!!! Somewhat similar to ZOMG... if everything is coded to use encapsulation, inheritance, and polymorphism then all my problems will be solved!!! |
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