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  Is our Universe Simulatable?  (Read 7724 times)
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Offline hwinwuzhere
« Reply #90 - Posted 2014-04-24 10:15:52 »

Can you build a simulator not in our universe? If so may be yes in other case simulator will be the part of the universe and need to simulate itself %).

That means you would get a recursive program that keeps producing itself and goes to infinity and eventually runs out of memory (if it didn't do that already, for we can accept that the universe is infinitely huge and complex).

There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data,
Offline LiquidNitrogen
« Reply #91 - Posted 2014-04-24 10:17:32 »

you would quickly run out of material with which to build the memory needed to store the information about the state of each component of the universe. if you took all the matter in the universe and converted it into computer memory, it probably wouldnt hold enough data to represent the universe accurately.

Offline hwinwuzhere
« Reply #92 - Posted 2014-04-24 10:18:53 »

you would quickly run out of material with which to build the memory needed to store the information about the state of each component of the universe.

Very valid point! Can we conclude that our universe isn't simulatable? Smiley

There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data,
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Offline ikovrigin

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« Reply #93 - Posted 2014-04-24 11:03:55 »

There are too many problems. To simulate something (with 100% precission) you need too have 100% valid state at the begining of simulation. So you need to mesure all values without time lag and with 100% precission (all at the same time). All values in universe ? %). You need to simulate quickly than process (universe) is running. You can't stop universe. If you calculate slower than you can't predict. This is meaningless question. You need to decide what you want to simulate and with what precission. For ex. Newton's laws is simulation and many many other known laws of nature.
Offline 04hockey

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« Reply #94 - Posted 2014-04-24 14:44:47 »

This was a really interesting video! I'm sure in the far future we could definitely have the power to simulate an entire universe.
Offline Drenius
« Reply #95 - Posted 2014-04-24 15:01:11 »

I'm sure in the far future we could definitely have the power to simulate an entire universe.
An, but not our, thats the point we got.

And still, what would this 'simulation' look like? It would somehow process everything, but would it be something we can still read from?
What is a 'simulation' if not something that is actually less than the original thing. Trying to simulate it 100% would actually mean cloning it, wouldn't it?
Offline ikovrigin

Senior Newbie





« Reply #96 - Posted 2014-04-24 15:19:24 »

Why all off you think we are not in simulator? Smiley the only point is you can't check if you in sumulator or not from inside of it. And you can't simulate university from inside of it. So to simulate the university first step is "stop the world i want to get off" Smiley.
Offline Drenius
« Reply #97 - Posted 2014-04-24 15:25:16 »

Quote
Why all off you think we are not in simulator?

Depends on definition whats 'real' so... We are but the same time we are not. (completely new concept...)

Quote
And you can't simulate university from inside of it.
Interesting  Roll Eyes
Its 'universe' <- only ment to be helpful.
Offline ikovrigin

Senior Newbie





« Reply #98 - Posted 2014-04-28 09:21:26 »

Quote
Why all off you think we are not in simulator?

Depends on definition whats 'real' so... We are but the same time we are not. (completely new concept...)

Quote
And you can't simulate university from inside of it.
Interesting  Roll Eyes
Its 'universe' <- only ment to be helpful.

sorry for my english Smiley you right i mean you can't fully simulate universe from inside of it.
Offline gimbal

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« Reply #99 - Posted 2014-04-28 14:33:42 »

Its 'universe' <- only ment to be helpful.

It never fails, you were just punked by your own keyboard Tongue
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Offline MatthewNicholls

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« Reply #100 - Posted 2014-04-28 17:48:04 »

2 mice = 42  Grin

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #101 - Posted 2014-04-28 19:24:59 »

Why all off you think we are not in simulator? Smiley the only point is you can't check if you in sumulator or not from inside of it.
Because the numbers are impossible large and the only solution to that problem is a massively more complex universe than our own. Occam's razor.
Offline ikovrigin

Senior Newbie





« Reply #102 - Posted 2014-04-29 07:11:52 »

Why all off you think we are not in simulator? Smiley the only point is you can't check if you in sumulator or not from inside of it.
Because the numbers are impossible large and the only solution to that problem is a massively more complex universe than our own. Occam's razor.

May be there is no "our universe", other guys and other stuff ^))) ... only your AI and lazy computation of all you see or think about at that time. This is much more simple than big "our universe". Occam's razor.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #103 - Posted 2014-04-29 07:56:50 »

Exactly.  You're description is drastically more complex therefore is drastically less likely to be correct.

I'm being a "bump on a log" here because science fiction (light on science & very heavy on fiction) is fine for amusement.  However as computer scientist it's quite important to grasp the scale of thing before attempting a find a solution.
Offline MatthewNicholls

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« Reply #104 - Posted 2014-04-29 08:13:10 »

Just an observation from my AI course.

Simulation of a natural system is a model that captures the functional connections between inputs and outputs of the system.

Replication of a natural system is a model that captures the functional connections between inputs and outputs of the system and is based on processes that are the same as, or similar to, those of the real-world system.

Emulation of a natural system is a model that captures the functional connections between inputs and outputs of the system, base on processes that are the same as, or similar to, those of the natural system, and in the same materials as the natural system.

Simulacrum is an imitation... something having merely the form or appearance of a certain thing, without possessing its substance or proper qualities.

Simulation has a purpose to model a system on a certain level of detail. So depending on what level of detail you want to get into you could simulate the universe.

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"...Muahahhah.ahahah... pull the lever Egor!" ..."Yesh mashter"..click... click...click..buzzzzz".......Its Alive!"
Offline Roquen
« Reply #105 - Posted 2014-04-29 08:29:51 »

Estimated number of galaxies in the observable universe: ~227.
Offline MatthewNicholls

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« Reply #106 - Posted 2014-04-29 08:42:14 »

Ok for this LOD we're talking a very lossy compression ratio of.... Pointing

1 .. 2.. skip a few... 99 100  Grin

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"...Muahahhah.ahahah... pull the lever Egor!" ..."Yesh mashter"..click... click...click..buzzzzz".......Its Alive!"
Offline ikovrigin

Senior Newbie





« Reply #107 - Posted 2014-04-29 13:08:56 »

Exactly.  You're description is drastically more complex therefore is drastically less likely to be correct.

I'm being a "bump on a log" here because science fiction (light on science & very heavy on fiction) is fine for amusement.  However as computer scientist it's quite important to grasp the scale of thing before attempting a find a solution.

So you think generate data for AI is more complex than universe? Did i missed something? You even no need to generate random events. AI can think he is decide by himself, but "we all know" this is only simulation. Smiley
Offline hwinwuzhere
« Reply #108 - Posted 2014-04-29 14:28:07 »

Estimated number of galaxies in the observable universe: ~227.

You said it right: "Estimated" and "observable universe", even the observable part of our universe is so immense we can't possibly simulate it. Forget trying to simulate things we don't even know they exist.

There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data,
Offline Drenius
« Reply #109 - Posted 2014-04-29 14:47:13 »

@hwinwuzhere: This is not a thread about 'lets do it!' but about 'is it even theoretically possible?'. The core problem is not that the universe is really *big*.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #110 - Posted 2014-04-29 17:55:48 »

Actually the scale 'is' the problem.
Offline hwinwuzhere
« Reply #111 - Posted 2014-04-29 18:05:29 »

@hwinwuzhere: This is not a thread about 'lets do it!' but about 'is it even theoretically possible?'. The core problem is not that the universe is really *big*.

Well if you look at it from a theoretical point of view you could say that if we had an infinite amount of resources (or at least enough resources) and we assume that the universe would be finite AND we don't have to simulate our simulation within our simulation (and so on and so on), then it would be possible to simulate our universe.

So in other words: it is (in my opinion) theoretically possible if we assume things that we cannot prove or that are not real.

There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data,
Offline tberthel
« Reply #112 - Posted 2014-05-08 09:05:03 »

No but people try anyways:

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/read/this-is-the-most-accurate-simulation-of-the-universe-ever?utm_source=motherboardfb


Online ags1

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« Reply #113 - Posted 2014-05-12 10:42:46 »

Well, these guys tried:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140512.html

Not the entire universe, but a big chunk of it, to a certain degree of precision.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #114 - Posted 2014-05-12 11:43:08 »

Simulations of this nature are "statistical modeling".
Offline delt0r

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Computers can do that?


« Reply #115 - Posted 2014-05-12 12:14:40 »

Yay.. statistical modeling is my day job. I simulate the universe. Oh wait i only simulate evolution in finite populations. :/

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline Roquen
« Reply #116 - Posted 2014-05-12 12:47:56 »

On a completely different topic: hopscotch -- played with?  if so any feel for vs. cuckoo?
Online ags1

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« Reply #117 - Posted 2014-05-12 17:19:28 »

Simulations of this nature are "statistical modeling".

Given the quantum nature of the universe, aren't all simulations statistical modeling? :-)

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #118 - Posted 2014-05-13 03:50:00 »

I think the chief problem you guys are having with this thread is that you are using terms without defining them.  For example, 'universe' - do you mean everything that there is, or something else?  This is important.  If you mean the former, then there is no 'getting out of the universe' to simulate 'this' universe.  The whole idea of a meta universe doesn't work on that basis.  If you mean something else: then what?  A many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics?  If so, that's infinitely branching so in principle impossible to simulate every branch though perhaps possible to simulate one path.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #119 - Posted 2014-05-13 05:25:19 »

kaffiene: Everyone's talking about different things and virtually all variants fall into the impossible due to scale.

Quote
Given the quantum nature of the universe,
There's no reason to suppose the nature of the universe is "quantum"...QM is just a model.  It's seems unlikely that an exact model of the universe will be one which relies on Real numbers.
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