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  Is our Universe Simulatable?  (Read 8376 times)
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Offline matheus23

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« Posted 2014-04-20 21:05:20 »

I think the topic title says it all.
Is it possible? In the sense of like (this is based on what I heard about quantum theory) to simulate a big array of quantum volumes that react exactly like the do in our world?

I know science hasn't yet found out everything. But do you think it is possible? Wink

We can simulate really basic, simple universes with really simple rules: Game of Life. It's turing complete, you can build computers inside of it. And I guess you could even create a thinking AI inside of it, too.
People have implemented the game of life inside game of life Cheesy

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Online BurntPizza

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2014-04-20 21:15:12 »

I assume you mean with unbounded computation power and memory, otherwise the answer is obvious  Wink

Technically, there are a finite number of quantum states in a finite volume, so I believe it would be possible. (Assuming a finite universe, no multiverses, or other black magic)

Have you seen this? (Maybe it sparked this topic!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOxDb_BbXzU
Offline Drenius
« Reply #2 - Posted 2014-04-20 21:32:17 »

Quote
I assume you mean with unbounded computation power and memory, otherwise the answer is obvious
Maybe not the whole universe at once, but a part of it, by just knowing how the whole thing works.
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« Reply #3 - Posted 2014-04-20 21:42:50 »

Quote
I assume you mean with unbounded computation power and memory, otherwise the answer is obvious
Maybe not the whole universe at once, but a part of it, by just knowing how the whole thing works.

A very, very small part, even if you were to chop space up into cubes minecraft-style, with each cube a planck length on edge, a teaspoon would contain 1.16752772 × 1099 such cubes. Multiply that by how many states there could be per cube, and you very quickly hit that memory constraint.
Offline Drenius
« Reply #4 - Posted 2014-04-20 21:56:40 »

The main problem would probably be what we can accept as a simulation of a universe and what just as one of something though.
Define when it is worth to be called 'universe'.
(Somebody will come up with a definition, but it won't be the only possible.)
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« Reply #5 - Posted 2014-04-20 21:58:24 »

Well the thread title is "Our Universe," so I'm guessing matheus's original question pertains to the currently observable universe, perhaps beyond. (Beyond observable is tricky to think about though)
Offline Drenius
« Reply #6 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:01:18 »

Still. Who has to decide whats a proper representation of it.
Offline ags1

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:14:55 »

From my study of chemistry, I recall that supercomputers struggle to exactly represent one oxygen molecule. I think if you had a computer larger than the universe, you could simulate the universe :-)

Offline Slyth2727
« Reply #8 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:15:50 »

I've thought of this many times before. Think about it, if we could simulate our world we could see... into the future O.o

Was I before Chuang Tzu who dreamt about being a butterfly, or am I now a butterfly who dreams about being Chuang Tzu?
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« Reply #9 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:20:18 »

I've thought of this many times before. Think about it, if we could simulate our world we could see... into the future O.o

Only if you could simulate faster than real time. That's the kicker.
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Offline RobinB

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:28:59 »

There are some theorys around saying we are in a simulation right now!
Offline Drenius
« Reply #11 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:35:02 »

Reality itself is a paradox. It is self-explaining. Think about it.
Offline ags1

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:40:52 »

The universe as we experience it in ur heads is just an emulation that has an indirect relation the the "real" reality. For example, color is not a property of light, it is a label attached to light in our brain.

Offline Cero
« Reply #13 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:49:09 »

I've thought of this many times before. Think about it, if we could simulate our world we could see... into the future O.o
Thats not how quantum physics works -> Probability

Reality itself is a paradox. It is self-explaining. Think about it.
Not really a paradox but rather an unanswered question, why did the big bang occur, how did whatever was before came to be, why does ANYTHING exist? its not a paradox its just a question mark. Which we can never solve without information from outside the system I guess

To answer the question I think Yes, because scale is not an issue and monkeys typing Shakespeare.

Offline Drenius
« Reply #14 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:55:29 »

@Cero:
No, not the universe. Some physicists believe they have a pretty good idea of what the universe is and where it came from.
Reality. The existence of the universe requires at least one thing: Existence.
Not time or space but pure, meaningless existence. This is a paradox.
Offline opiop65

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2014-04-20 22:57:41 »

That's not what he meant. He meant why do we even exist? Whats the point to existence? Everything dies or ceases to exist at one point, so what's the point?

Just why?

Offline Drenius
« Reply #16 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:01:54 »

@opiop: Thats more a philosophical question and although it has some connection it does not really belong here.
Offline opiop65

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« Reply #17 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:03:00 »

Drenius, I was explaining what Cero said because you misread his answer.

Offline SimonH
« Reply #18 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:10:49 »

Logically, you can't simulate the universe.
If you managed to make a simulator, then the universe would be different - it'd have the simulator in it. You'd have to simulate the universe with the simulator in it simulating the universe which had in it the simulator simulating the simulator simulating the universe... and so on ad infinitum...

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Offline Drenius
« Reply #19 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:13:14 »

@opiop:
You used the word 'die'. This would require life to be a 'fact' - you could also say the universe 'dies' - but still a 'fact'.
I wanted to make clear that what he told still required 'existence' to be a fact, not a question.
(Sorry, possible still bad explained.)

@SimonH: You got it. Have a medal.
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« Reply #20 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:13:25 »

Logically, you can't simulate the universe.
If you managed to make a simulator, then the universe would be different - it'd have the simulator in it. You'd have to simulate the universe with the simulator in it simulating the universe which had in it the simulator simulating the simulator simulating the universe... and so on ad infinitum...

That's assuming the simulator is in the same universe as the one it's attempting to simulate, which is indeed paradoxical.

At this point the question is far too open-ended and plain silly to try and give an actual answer to.
Offline opiop65

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« Reply #21 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:15:22 »

Existance is a fact... Doesn't matter if we are all in a simulation. That simulation needs to be controlled somehow, which implies existance. And a simulator implies someone built the simulation, which means life. Life is a fact, I have no idea what you are talking about Drenius...

Offline Drenius
« Reply #22 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:15:45 »

@BurntPizza: It cannot have any final answer, how could it, but it is stil an interesting topic to discuss.
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« Reply #23 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:17:37 »

@BurntPizza: It cannot have any final answer, how could it, but it is stil an interesting topic to discuss.

I didn't say it's too difficult to get the answer, merely a answer. Of course we can't know the answer.

Indeed, it is interesting. But silly nonetheless.
Offline Drenius
« Reply #24 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:18:42 »

@opiop: No. Not existence in sense of 'is alive' - forget that. If I die, I am no longer alive, but still existing, at least my body is.
If 'somebody' built the 'simulation' this 'person' hast to 'exist' - but what [***] is 'existence'?

EDIT: Sorry for so many '' - but they are necessary here.
Offline opiop65

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« Reply #25 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:21:39 »

That's questionable. Do you really exist when you are dead? Your body exists, sure, but are you still there? Its your soul that exists and your mind that makes you who you are. If you die, do you truly still exist?

Offline Drenius
« Reply #26 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:23:19 »

Could you please try to forget everything you know about the world around you before you try to understand how it works? This will take forever else.
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« Reply #27 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:24:21 »

Could you please try to forget everything you know about the world around you before you try to understand how it works? This will take forever else.

Dude, c'mon.


Offline Drenius
« Reply #28 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:25:37 »

Gettin impatient, sorry.
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« Reply #29 - Posted 2014-04-20 23:27:10 »

Gettin impatient, sorry.

You have somewhere you need to be and want the answer before then?
You're not making sense here.
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