Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (81)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (481)
Games in Android Showcase (110)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (548)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  Ignorance at its best.  (Read 4119 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline SkyAphid
« Posted 2012-06-12 06:58:52 »

Someone just told me that OpenGL is outdated and I should get more modern and powerful programs like Adobe Flash.

Then continued to insult Java as a language saying, "It's not what the pros use" after I stated OpenGL is used often in many indie projects.

Then argued the statement that Flash would never be replaced by HTML5 in any way.

Finally, he said Adobe Flash is a program and had nothing to do with programming languages.

God help us.

“Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.” ~Leonardo da Vinci
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 781
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #1 - Posted 2012-06-12 07:02:15 »

I don't see the problem, this is your average competent manager.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline SkyAphid
« Reply #2 - Posted 2012-06-12 07:06:43 »

I don't see the problem, this is your average competent manager.
competent or incompetent?

HTML5 is going to replace flash. It's stronger and better in like, every way.

This person tried explaining that OpenGL isn't good for games, and that Flash is just like, the best ever.

Most of his arguments didn't make sense either.

“Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.” ~Leonardo da Vinci
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 145
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #3 - Posted 2012-06-12 07:07:19 »

I have honed a special skill I call "not giving a shit". I leave it engaged nearly all the time. I walk around not giving a shit left and right. The important thing for every shit not given is to know why that is so. Seems pretty obvious in this situation.

Also, OpenGL and Java are hardly related.

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 781
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #4 - Posted 2012-06-12 07:09:22 »

I don't see the problem, this is your average competent manager.
competent or incompetent?
Competent, unfortunately. It simply doesn't get much better than this level of knowledge/ignorance.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline SkyAphid
« Reply #5 - Posted 2012-06-12 07:09:49 »

I have honed a special skill I call "not giving a shit". I leave it engaged nearly all the time. I walk around not giving a shit left and right. The important thing for every shit not given is to know why that is so. Seems pretty obvious in this situation.

Also, OpenGL and Java are hardly related.

The same, and also that was my point. He was arguing that OpenGL wasn't as good as C. It was hilarious at how weird his arguments were lol

“Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.” ~Leonardo da Vinci
Offline Sickan

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #6 - Posted 2012-06-12 07:12:40 »

So a dude just came up to you and started talking ignorance about OpenGL, C, Java, Adobe Flash and whatever? Wierd, most people I know have no idea either of them exists.
Offline theagentd
« Reply #7 - Posted 2012-06-12 07:50:28 »

Counter with "How many particles can you animate at 60 FPS then?".

Another good one is that Flash is GPU accelerated nowadays, most likely by OpenGL at least on Macs and Linux, assuming there's GPU acceleration on those platforms.

OpenGL is more up to date with hardware at the moment thanks to extensions.

If you need the performance of C, you're doing something wrong. I doubt most people have even touched 3D, so if their 2D game is too slow for Java it's their own fault. I took a university level programming course once. My teacher said that since C is so fast I didn't have to bother with fast algorithms. He was an idiot, and also made me believe that having less performance forces you to code better.

I could go on...

Myomyomyo.
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #8 - Posted 2012-06-12 08:34:53 »

Finally, he said Adobe Flash is a program and had nothing to do with programming languages.

Actually here he happened to be correct, but only by accident as far as I can tell. Adobe Flash IS a program. Which produces Flash movies. It applies a scripting language to make things more dynamic, it should not be compared to any programming language.


My teacher said that since C is so fast I didn't have to bother with fast algorithms. He was an idiot, and also made me believe that having less performance forces you to code better.

always nice to prove these people wrong by writing some perfectly valid C code (so nothing ugly) that performs like a mule Wink The argument can then only be "Yeah, you wrote the code to be slow". And the only answer to that is: "EXACTLY!"
Offline Roquen
« Reply #9 - Posted 2012-06-12 09:39:03 »

OpenGL is a horribly outdated API.  Not to be confused with outdated WRT accessing features.  Flash is just a program with an embedded DSL.  HTML5 is just a program with an embedded DSL.  Java isn't a choice made by pros.  So what to all of these.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline theagentd
« Reply #10 - Posted 2012-06-12 09:41:28 »

OpenGL is a horribly outdated API.
o_O Maybe you should go over to OGL 3.2+ then? It's kind of funny how you come in and just say that everything sucks.  Grin

Myomyomyo.
Offline R.D.

Senior Member


Medals: 2
Projects: 1


"For the last time, Hats ARE Awesome"


« Reply #11 - Posted 2012-06-12 11:05:08 »

Since I currently writing a Bachelor thesis about this topic (kinda), I can tell that OpenGL isn't outdated on the feature site. It's more how the API works that many people don't like. In the end you have a state machine and a lot of people actually don't like that. I can't understand this since it's what I love about OpenGL.

But you also have to see future technology imho. I currently learning JavaScript (something I hated for sooooo long) do make games with HTML5 and hell... it just awesome to work with and I can see a new Future in it where this horrible performing Flash stuff will be replaced be JS + HTML5. Oh and don't forget WebGL and OpenGL ES.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #12 - Posted 2012-06-12 11:38:35 »

Quote
o_O Maybe you should go over to OGL 3.2+ then? It's kind of funny how you come in and just say that everything sucks.  Grin
As I mentioned in another thread, if I provided a big (but very useful) java library which was composed only static methods which operate logically on diverse sets of things and the vast majority of API calls are out-of-date and should never be called by users targeting today's feature set and requires a fair amount of state knowledge and manipulation whose only purpose is a work-around for the fact that all methods are static and that the diverse set of things are referred to by integer values.  It also has a bigillion magic constants in a single namespace.  Oh and it has a wide array of nearly, but not quite identical functionality which all has to be maintained 'cause users can mix-and-match features present since the dawn of history.

You'd tell me I'm insane and the clean it up.  BTW: Where did I say anything sucked?

(EDIT: And yes...I'm aware of start of deprecation started in 3.1 BTW which is a long overdue start...but why drag out the pain for driver writers.)
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #13 - Posted 2012-06-12 12:02:29 »

OpenGL is so old it has all the design habits in there that used to be considered the way to go but are nowadays condemned.

The only way out is to take the plunge and do what OpenGL 3 should have been - a total redesign that breaks backwards compatibility on purpose. But yeah, that's the equivalent of introducing a whole new API - not as easy as it sounds as it will also mean that hardware manufacturers will have to provide totally new drivers also.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #14 - Posted 2012-06-12 12:06:49 »

Exactly.  Except it would most likely be less work.  They would simply create backward compatible wrappers (per version) and be done with it.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2012-06-12 12:12:41 »

The future of OpenGL is probably OpenGL ES, which is relatively straightforward and has all the baggage chucked out.
As it is though the OpenGL API is exactly how I'd design an API that has to interface directly with a bit of hardware using client/server architecture, such that it runs as fast as possible and can be made to work with any language under the sun.

Cas Smiley

Offline theagentd
« Reply #16 - Posted 2012-06-12 12:33:09 »

Quote
o_O Maybe you should go over to OGL 3.2+ then? It's kind of funny how you come in and just say that everything sucks.  Grin
As I mentioned in another thread, if I provided a big (but very useful) java library which was composed only static methods which operate logically on diverse sets of things and the vast majority of API calls are out-of-date and should never be called by users targeting today's feature set and requires a fair amount of state knowledge and manipulation whose only purpose is a work-around for the fact that all methods are static and that the diverse set of things are referred to by integer values.  It also has a bigillion magic constants in a single namespace.  Oh and it has a wide array of nearly, but not quite identical functionality which all has to be maintained 'cause users can mix-and-match features present since the dawn of history.

You'd tell me I'm insane and the clean it up.  BTW: Where did I say anything sucked?

(EDIT: And yes...I'm aware of start of deprecation started in 3.1 BTW which is a long overdue start...but why drag out the pain for driver writers.)

OpenGL 3.2 without compatibility mode is really, with everything that isn't necessary removed and mostly replaced by shaders, so I wouldn't say it has a bigillion magic constants anymore. OpenGL 3.2+ has a lot less state you can forget to reset, and everything is just a lot easier to get right once you know the shader basics. I DO agree that the amount of state is still too much, which is why a lot of stuff is moving over to bindless state at least. As the GPU flexibility increases with each GPU generation we'll probably see OpenGL get simpler and simpler. There's already bindless textures from NVidia which removes texture units and texture binding altogether, allowing shaders to access as many textures as you can store in VRAM and increasing CPU performance since we don't have to bind anything anymore. OpenGL may have a hard time deprecating old content, and an even harder time getting driver developers to give up backwards compatibility when big customers don't want to rewrite their software, but I see it as if it's moving in the right direction, albeit slowly.


The future of OpenGL is probably OpenGL ES, which is relatively straightforward and has all the baggage chucked out.
As it is though the OpenGL API is exactly how I'd design an API that has to interface directly with a bit of hardware using client/server architecture, such that it runs as fast as possible and can be made to work with any language under the sun.

Cas Smiley

OpenGL ES isn't much different from OpenGL 3 without backwards compatibility. It'll have to go through the same hardware evolutions to enable the next gen GPU flexibility (even faster considering the progress on the mobile market), so while it might be perfect now it's probably going to feel just as outdated as we feel OpenGL 3.2> is now pretty soon.


I'd like to see support for multiple threads "rendering" commands to display lists which can then be executed with little overhead on the main thread, similar to what DX11 promised but failed to deliver (performance-wise). Having as little persistent state as possible clearly helps here. Games need to start using more CPU cores, or where going to end up in deep shit once computers get 8+ cores. I mean, there's a reason why computers can have 6 hyper-threaded cores overclocked at 4GHz+ but not a single core at 24GHz...

Myomyomyo.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2012-06-12 12:39:56 »

The bottleneck is the bus and memory bandwidth and current consumer MP architectures are probably not going to ever be optimal. Multiple thread rendering always sounds like a cool idea until you remember that there's only one bus to the GPU.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #18 - Posted 2012-06-12 12:51:59 »

@theagentd : It's still a flat C API with no exposed notion of ownership.  Did supporting multiple GPUs (for instance, which should be trival) suddenly get simpler when I wasn't looking?
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #19 - Posted 2012-06-12 12:58:32 »

I have honed a special skill I call "not giving a shit". I leave it engaged nearly all the time. I walk around not giving a shit left and right. The important thing for every shit not given is to know why that is so. Seems pretty obvious in this situation.

Also, OpenGL and Java are hardly related.
Agreed but you can't ignore it when you're talking about requirement of a task/job/assignment, not just a coffee break talk.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2012-06-12 13:01:40 »

@theagentd : It's still a flat C API with no exposed notion of ownership.  Did supporting multiple GPUs (for instance, which should be trival) suddenly get simpler when I wasn't looking?
What do you mean by no exposed notion of ownership?

Cas Smiley

Offline theagentd
« Reply #21 - Posted 2012-06-12 13:23:31 »

The bottleneck is the bus and memory bandwidth and current consumer MP architectures are probably not going to ever be optimal. Multiple thread rendering always sounds like a cool idea until you remember that there's only one bus to the GPU.

Cas Smiley
?

If we could render with multiple threads, we could use 4 threads to set up all OGL commands for your sprite renderer and then call them in order from the main thread a bit quicker since all the state changes could be optimized for the display list and maybe even processed ahead of time.

Myomyomyo.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #22 - Posted 2012-06-12 13:29:31 »

@princec : IHMO There should be a opengl context (one per process), which "owns" some number of logical devices (one per GPU..or might show only one in case of things like SLI/Crossfire)...each device own's it's textures, queries, programs, etc. etc.  Although it would probably be reasonable to allow telling the context that the backing of things like textures and programs are the same.  As far I as know you can't really use two nivida cards (other than Quadro...WGL_NV_gpu_affinity which is a PITA) in opengl individually.
Offline SkyAphid
« Reply #23 - Posted 2012-06-12 20:27:00 »

These conversations on here always make me so warm and fuzzy inside. Hahah

“Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.” ~Leonardo da Vinci
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 345
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2012-06-12 20:45:49 »

These conversations on here always make me so warm and fuzzy inside. Hahah
A true nerd Smiley

Offline Jimmt
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 128
Projects: 4
Exp: 3 years



« Reply #25 - Posted 2012-06-12 20:46:28 »

Americans.
Offline SkyAphid
« Reply #26 - Posted 2012-06-12 20:58:05 »

Americans.
No, you mean, 'MUURRCANS

“Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.” ~Leonardo da Vinci
Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 145
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #27 - Posted 2012-06-12 23:04:22 »

I have honed a special skill I call "not giving a shit". I leave it engaged nearly all the time. I walk around not giving a shit left and right. The important thing for every shit not given is to know why that is so. Seems pretty obvious in this situation.

Also, OpenGL and Java are hardly related.
Agreed but you can't ignore it when you're talking about requirement of a task/job/assignment, not just a coffee break talk.
You'd be surprised how far this tactic can get you. I would say if anyone in any position of authority where you work has opinions like these, you are screwed. As Riven pointed out, you are typically screwed. In this case not giving a shit becomes even more important. You get paid the same, the only thing that changes is you don't have any stress at work.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #28 - Posted 2012-06-12 23:55:52 »

My advice is to stop working for someone else Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 145
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #29 - Posted 2012-06-13 00:58:55 »

My advice is to stop working for someone else Smiley
Done! Hard as hell to stay productive though.

Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

atombrot (26 views)
2014-08-19 09:29:53

Tekkerue (24 views)
2014-08-16 06:45:27

Tekkerue (23 views)
2014-08-16 06:22:17

Tekkerue (14 views)
2014-08-16 06:20:21

Tekkerue (21 views)
2014-08-16 06:12:11

Rayexar (60 views)
2014-08-11 02:49:23

BurntPizza (38 views)
2014-08-09 21:09:32

BurntPizza (30 views)
2014-08-08 02:01:56

Norakomi (37 views)
2014-08-06 19:49:38

BurntPizza (67 views)
2014-08-03 02:57:17
List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 11:54:12

HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 01:59:08
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!