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  I no longer use Google Play and I block ads  (Read 17170 times)
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Offline gouessej
« Posted 2014-12-22 11:04:00 »

Hi

I want to avoid ruining the topic about IndyRush, I answer to NegativeZero's post here.

Google Play isn't available on all Android devices and it can't be used without a Google account, that's why I circumvent this "system". I have never wanted to lack of respect for Corvid's game or harm him, I don't want to prevent him from promoting his work, I have never claimed that he deserves no income and I made some donations in the past to several developers.

I understand that some end users want to get everything for free but keep in mind that this forum is mostly visited by numerous developers (what I wrote here has a very low impact on his user base), it's up to the developers to provide some alternative means of paying them (FlattR?) and I encourage people to remember that every work deserves a salary. In other words, I tell them to accept the ads or to pay when their use goes beyond a simple test. I don't accept the ads but I pay, I'm not a thief. Some ads are extremely invasive, they can appear when you get a call or when you want to take a picture, people can have some legitimate reasons to block ads and a business model exclusively based on them is a weak one.

You can kill someone with a knife but the guy who made it isn't responsible for its use. Some people can use my tricks to avoid paying even though a few bucks would be deserved but I'm not responsible for having them believe that they can get everything for free, I would rather point out lots of webmasters and service providers who have (ab)used ads for more than a decade instead of looking for a stronger business model.

This is a political problem, there is no purely technical solution on the long term. I don't see the point of showing ads on which almost nobody will click. When the ad bubble explodes, the advertisers will have earned a lot of money in the meantime but those who depend a lot on ad revenues will be in a very bad situation. I will never accept forced ads and I think that there is a real need of looking for more viable business models for game programmers as a game isn't a tomato, the digital economy is different.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline JESTERRRRRR
« Reply #1 - Posted 2014-12-23 03:33:28 »

Quote
it's up to the developers to provide some alternative means of paying them

I agree about this ad bubble and it exploding - I probably saw 5 in the last 20 minutes and cant remember a thing, trained to blank them out.

I disagree with what you said though, they shouldn't have to imo.

I don't want to jack your topic, but can I quickly ask (not developed for android and dont use a smartphone) what happens to in-app adds if you disable internet?
Offline Longarmx
« Reply #2 - Posted 2014-12-23 14:03:34 »

I don't want to jack your topic, but can I quickly ask (not developed for android and dont use a smartphone) what happens to in-app adds if you disable internet?

They just don't show up.

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #3 - Posted 2014-12-23 15:57:16 »

I disagree with what you said though, they shouldn't have to imo.
Please can you elaborate? If the developers don't provide alternative means of getting some money, I can't pay them. Most of the time, I ask an IBAN. If I use Paypal, it will sell my personal data to Facebook. If I use a Google account, Google will do the same.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline Riven
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« Reply #4 - Posted 2014-12-23 17:37:28 »

Banks sell your financial information too...

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Offline kevglass

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2014-12-23 17:39:47 »

As do utility companies. Even the government drives statistical models off your personal data and then sell the results of that model.

Cheers,

Kev

Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2014-12-23 18:09:48 »

At the risk of hijacking this thread, we've got a bit of a paradox here:

We want less annoying, less obtrusive, more memorable, more applicable, just in general *better* advertisements. They are a necessary evil in our world, so we should make them as un-evil as possible.

However, the way to do this is by tailoring advertisements to specific types of people. The ads on this site promote games by the people on this site, for example, and that doesn't seem half bad.

But, in theory, that's what google/facebook/microsoft/amazon/everybody is doing when they "sell your information" as it is sorta misleadingly called. But we don't like that either!

So, what's the solution?

I like ad networks like Project Wonderful, who usually seem to show pretty decent advertisements (and they're site-wide, not specific to a user), and hopefully the bigger ad networks get better at showing ads in a non-obtrusive way.

Is there a "good" way to do ads? Or are we all just waiting for the "ad bubble" to burst? What comes after that?

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #7 - Posted 2014-12-23 22:34:00 »

Banks sell your financial information too...
As do utility companies. Even the government drives statistical models off your personal data and then sell the results of that model.
The fact that some other organizations sell my personal data too doesn't drive it more acceptable. Moreover, keep in mind that we live in different countries with different laws. Germany and France are known to have stricter laws about the use of personal data and there are historical reasons for that (several census and immunization campaigns had been used in the thirties to "file" the Jews). The CIA used vaccination campaigns for spying purposes too:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-no-more-vaccination-campaigns-in-spy-operations/2014/05/19/406c4f3e-df88-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html
IBM technically helped in the filing (use a translator as this article is in French):
http://www.histoire-medecine.fr/articles-histoire-de-la-medecine-ibm-et-le-fichage-des-juifs-en-france.php

At the risk of hijacking this thread, we've got a bit of a paradox here:

We want less annoying, less obtrusive, more memorable, more applicable, just in general *better* advertisements. They are a necessary evil in our world, so we should make them as un-evil as possible.
Personally, I want no ad.

However, the way to do this is by tailoring advertisements to specific types of people. The ads on this site promote games by the people on this site, for example, and that doesn't seem half bad.
I don't look at the banners and they aren't invasive.

But, in theory, that's what google/facebook/microsoft/amazon/everybody is doing when they "sell your information" as it is sorta misleadingly called. But we don't like that either!
I don't use Microsoft products except when I'm forced to do so at work. I still try to stay far from Google, my next mobile phone won't be under Android (Neo 900 under GNU Linux), I've already tried to migrate from Youtube to something else, I don't use Google search engine, I don't use Facebook, ...

So, what's the solution?

I like ad networks like Project Wonderful, who usually seem to show pretty decent advertisements (and they're site-wide, not specific to a user), and hopefully the bigger ad networks get better at showing ads in a non-obtrusive way.

Is there a "good" way to do ads? Or are we all just waiting for the "ad bubble" to burst? What comes after that?
In my humble opinion, there is no acceptable ad. If I want to learn things about games, I have to go to a website about games, I have to look for information instead of getting annoying popups. I think that it will be difficult to explain to people that it's time to pay but it's necessary. I'm still in favour of the collectivist cooperative global patronage.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline ags1

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2014-12-23 22:46:46 »

Isn't everything advertising? Isn't making a thread about a game on JGO advertising? Or telling my colleagues at work about my game during a coffee break, or making a website for the game... What we despise as adverts are simply a formalized, commercialized and packaged way of doing the same thing as the JGO game thread, the coffee break banter, and the ever-hopeful website.

Offline Oskuro

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2014-12-24 01:25:46 »

Isn't everything advertising?

I guess the difference lies in that the potential customer actively looks for the examples you mentioned, while the ads being discussed are brought to the customer's attention even if the customer is not interested in them.

I feel this is an old debate (about the intrusiveness of advertising), I mean, before the internet there were TV or radio commercials, as well as paper-mail spam clogging mailboxes, not to mention all the adverts so get to see as you walk around town.
Heck, I sometimes hear a car rolling down the street blaring some advert from a loudspeaker!

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Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2014-12-24 14:30:30 »

Personally, I want no ad.
In my humble opinion, there is no acceptable ad.

Then what's the alternative? Having everybody pay for content?

I write tutorials and post them on my site, and I put up ads to hopefully eventually make some money from them- or at least cover the cost of hosting. My target audience are mostly teenagers who don't have credit cards, and certainly don't want to pay for content. But they don't mind a couple banner ads here and there.

What do I do as a creator? I'm not trying to bicker, I honestly want to know what the better solution is.

The truth is, most people would rather see ads than pay. There is a point where the ads become too much and people would rather just not use the site at all, but sites like buzzfeed prove that the threshold for most people is pretty high.

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Offline kpars
« Reply #11 - Posted 2014-12-24 14:43:11 »

I only block ads whenever they lag the hell out of my browser.

While I would happily support the people delivering this content, get five Flash ads running on your webpage all at once and I'll turn on AdBlock. Wink

I still make exceptions for sites I know and support, but when it gets to the point where I can't properly use your site without lagging up (and potentially crashing) my browser, I'm out.

- Jev
Offline gouessej
« Reply #12 - Posted 2014-12-24 14:54:32 »

Then what's the alternative? Having everybody pay for content?

I write tutorials and post them on my site, and I put up ads to hopefully eventually make some money from them- or at least cover the cost of hosting. My target audience are mostly teenagers who don't have credit cards, and certainly don't want to pay for content. But they don't mind a couple banner ads here and there.

What do I do as a creator? I'm not trying to bicker, I honestly want to know what the better solution is.
You pay or they pay. There is no ad on my blog because I pay Automattic, I ask nobody to cover the ridiculously small cost of hosting. There is no simple technical solution, people have to be educated anew so that they accept paying for the contents, directly or indirectly, with or without global license/global patronage/... I don't say that it's a simple problem to solve.

The truth is, most people would rather see ads than pay. There is a point where the ads become too much and people would rather just not use the site at all, but sites like buzzfeed prove that the threshold for most people is pretty high.
The success of Adblock (especially Trueblock and later Adblock Edge) shows that lots of people don't want to see ads.

Moreover, some ads are used to track people, it gives me another reason to refuse them all.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #13 - Posted 2014-12-24 16:47:54 »

I don't say that it's a simple problem to solve.

Exactly. You're proposing that we change how every single person uses the internet. That would definitely be nice, but it ain't gonna happen. Might as well try to make the best of a bad situation?

The success of Adblock (especially Trueblock and later Adblock Edge) shows that lots of people don't want to see ads.

Okay, but the percentage of people on the internet using adblock is very small. Especially compared to the percentage of people on the internet who use sites like buzzfeed where the entire site is basically one big advertisement.

How do you get the vast majority of internet uses (who don't mind ads) to switch over to a pay-for-content system?

Moreover, some ads are used to track people, it gives me another reason to refuse them all.

Yes that's creepy, but how should ads become more relevant without knowing anything about the people they're advertising to?

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Offline Oskuro

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2014-12-24 16:57:08 »

I only block ads whenever they lag the hell out of my browser.

That's another point that I feel some ignore. Even if your audience tolerates the ads, having them decrease the performance of your site/game will, in the long run, tarnish its reputation.

In my case, at least, sites that completely surrender their layout to ads, resulting in a visually disgusting mess, are less pleasant to navigate, and will, in the long run, lose to sites that offer comparable content without the clutter.

It ends up being a balancing act, in my opinion, and as such there is no specific answer. Just keep in mind that if the audience feels wronged, their trust will be hard to earn back.

A personal example:

I'm becoming very tired of sites that abuse the layout to maximize ad revenue. How do they do it? By needlessly splitting content into several pages so more ads load. One popular way is to offer a picture gallery, and then have each picture load as a separate page so everything loads again.

The result is that I, as a user, will often refrain from clicking through, just because I feel used and it bothers me (and this is with sites I turn AdBlock off because I want to support).


I guess, in the end, it all boils down to what type of audience you want. There are those who will tolerate any kind of crap, and those who will value that you treat them with respect. What each type of audience means to your product, well, that's up to you.

Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2014-12-26 13:13:18 »

I may get some flak for this opinion, but;
Who cares they're tracking you? I mean seriously? Does it really matter? Aside from the "Evil" targeted advertising where they show products I might actually be interested in, I don't see the problem. Wink

As for ads in general, my opinion is simply if a content provider decides to put ads on their site, we as the user have absolutely no right what so ever for any reason period to block them. If we don't like them, tough. Show them your lack of support by not using their service/product.

The internet isn't free. Blocking ads is the same as piracy, you're getting content and no one is paying for it. So if you don't like the content enough to put up with their price (the ads) then don't use it.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
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Offline princec

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« Reply #16 - Posted 2014-12-26 14:13:29 »

I quite agree with you about tracking. I simply don't care (much).

However... it absolutely is my right to pick and choose what I download onto my computer and if I choose to generally block ads, that's my prerogative. In all honesty I can't actually stand the paid-for-with-advertising model that the internet has somehow spawned and I hope it all turns to ratshit as soon as possible. Paywalls ftw.

Cas Smiley

Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #17 - Posted 2014-12-26 14:50:39 »

I quite agree with you about tracking. I simply don't care (much).

However... it absolutely is my right to pick and choose what I download onto my computer and if I choose to generally block ads, that's my prerogative. In all honesty I can't actually stand the paid-for-with-advertising model that the internet has somehow spawned and I hope it all turns to ratshit as soon as possible. Paywalls ftw.

Cas Smiley

Honestly I'd be totally ok with paywalls as well, although the price needs to be reasonable. I mean, I can't go around paying $5/month for google, JGO, StackOverflow, or the other 14 billion websites I use. Simply can't afford it.

What would be nice is if the entire internet (and it's users) had a mindset shift; Quality non-malicious ads on all free websites, with a cheap pay wall option of say a buck a month to offset lost ad revenue. I mean, imagine if Riven made a buck a month from all of us. That's a nice chunk 'o change.

Of course that model doesn't work everywhere, for example sites that already have subscriptions like Academic Journals or high traffic/bandwidth need sites like Netflix and YouTube. But I would totally pay $10/month for an ad-free YouTube, and I already pay for Netflix. Tongue

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Now on Steam!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.hitbox.tv/rayvolution
Offline princec

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2014-12-26 16:11:44 »

Riven absolutely could make a buck a month off of many of us and I wonder why he doesn't...

Cas Smiley

Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2014-12-26 16:12:14 »

Quite frankly the Internet wouldn't be where it is now without advertising. The early exponential growth was spurred by people building websites because they thought they could make a lot of money by putting up useless crap and plastering ads. Then the payout model changed but you could still use it since most people don't mind ads as long as you don't "break your site by putting 5 flash ads on one page." Most advertising doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't get too obtrusive. If it does I just don't visit the site with the bad ads. Putting everything behind paywalls won't work either since the search engines can't/won't  catalog behind paywalls. The whole point of the internet is to disseminate information and if you charge for it people won't get it. Some people come up with models where they put out free content to draw users then sell a service they may need. Everyone can't always do that so they put up ads. As far as I am concerned if you don't want to look at ads don't go to the site that is posting the content with ads, find it somewhere else or put up with it. People always want to get everything for free but everything is not free and if someone puts out something that is useful to me, my way of paying for it and thanking people for putting out information I find useful, is to put up with ads and even click on a few that are useful. If you can put up a site out of your own pocket and don't try to make money off of it that is your prerogative but don't force your ideals on other people. Especially if people need to make a little money to keep the site going. And don't even say how cheap hosting is because even if it is cheap not everyone can still afford it.

Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2014-12-26 17:30:29 »

I may get some flak for this opinion, but;
Who cares they're tracking you? I mean seriously? Does it really matter? Aside from the "Evil" targeted advertising where they show products I might actually be interested in, I don't see the problem. Wink

As for ads in general, my opinion is simply if a content provider decides to put ads on their site, we as the user have absolutely no right what so ever for any reason period to block them. If we don't like them, tough. Show them your lack of support by not using their service/product.

The internet isn't free. Blocking ads is the same as piracy, you're getting content and no one is paying for it. So if you don't like the content enough to put up with their price (the ads) then don't use it.

I agree with most of this, or at least the sentiment of it.

I get that I *should* care about how I'm being tracked. I understand the concerns with privacy and the ability to opt out (or opt in). I understand the need for more transparency with who is tracking what, why, what kind of data, etc.

However, I also can't really take seriously the people yelling "facebook is selling our personal information to private companies!" because, uh, they don't understand how advertising works. (Note: I am not a facebook expert and maybe facebook is indeed doing nefarious things, but it ain't the things most people are complaining about.)

I also don't use ad block, mostly for the reasons you outlined- if I'm getting something out of using a site, the least I can do is allow their ads. I also stand by the inverse: if a site has intrusive ads or click-bait tactics, I refuse to use that site.

But I also look forward to a future where we have all of this figured out: maybe there is an alternative to the ad-based model. Maybe as costs go down and the number of people on the internet go up, the relationship between creators and viewers will mature. Or maybe not, and the vast majority of internet uses will stay in the walled gardens of facebook, google, etc. I don't know- but I'm curious to see where it all goes.

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Offline Riven
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #21 - Posted 2014-12-26 17:44:28 »

Riven absolutely could make a buck a month off of many of us and I wonder why he doesn't...

Let's assume I'm rather full of myself, and consider everybody that gave me 2 or more medals since joining JGO, an active member that is among the target audience in my evil plan to extract $1 per month from. This means my target audience is slightly over 90 members, of which 10% might actually subscribe.

After transfer fees, taxes, etc., that's about $5 profit per month. Maybe $15, knowing how super awesome everybody knows I am. JGO is simply too small to make it worth while.

From a different angle: once people pay anything for a service, they suddenly feel entitled to the most arbitrary shit. I'm not going to expose myself to that.

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Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #22 - Posted 2014-12-26 17:49:41 »

I get that I *should* care about how I'm being tracked. I understand the concerns with privacy and the ability to opt out (or opt in). I understand the need for more transparency with who is tracking what, why, what kind of data, etc.

However, I also can't really take seriously the people yelling "facebook is selling our personal information to private companies!" because, uh, they don't understand how advertising works. (Note: I am not a facebook expert and maybe facebook is indeed doing nefarious things, but it ain't the things most people are complaining about.)

I guess it all depends on whats being tracked, I'm against nefarious tracking as well. But things like Amazon tracking my IP/Session and detecting what products I viewed, then using that to send targeted ads to me elsewhere doesn't seem all that terrible. All sites track where you've been, that's just the nature of how websites work. I can load up any of my site's stats right now and tell you what pages you visited on it (If I knew your IP).

(Disclaimer, the below statement is based on assumptions on what facebook is doing, I don't use facebook nor have I really looked into the info-selling fiasco)
Even the facebook stuff doesn't seem like a big deal, all the data (as far as I know?) they sell are public information you gave out to the internet anyway. If you mentioned Starbucks 100 times publicly, yeah, you might see some more Starbucks ads. You put the information out there, so it's obviously not that private to you, so who cares if other's "use" it? Would you rather get ads about Adult Diapers or that Starbucks is now selling Peppermint Lattes?

I guess when it all boils down to it, I really don't care if I'm tracked as long as the intent isn't malicious.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
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Offline Riven
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #23 - Posted 2014-12-26 17:56:00 »

The intent might not be mallicious, but the information is stored 'forever', meaning that it's not far fetched to assume one day it may be used against you.

- insert argument about filing info about race prior to WWII, of which the nazis took advantage. why would neutral information ever be used against you, right -

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Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #24 - Posted 2014-12-26 17:58:24 »

From a different angle: once people pay anything for a service, they suddenly feel entitled to the most arbitrary shit. I'm not going to expose myself to that.

Yup. Already seeing that with my game here and there. Human nature I guess. I think that's why a lot of B-quality mobile apps go for being ad-supported, people are more willing to, and somehow, enjoy the game more when they know it's a B-title going into it. When it's free they usually complain less about the random bug here and there. But man, charge them a buck for it and suddenly they expect the same game to be a golden triple-A title, even though they would have gotten tons of enjoyment out of it when it was free, because "free" allowed their little minds to overlook the bugs. I guess it's like the B-movie mentality, if you watch a movie already knowing it's going to suck you enjoy it a lot more than if you expected a triple-A blockbuster. Even though the end result was the same movie.

I mean, I get that when you pay for a service you deserve a little bit more than if it was free. Like if we all paid $5/month for JGO, and the site was down half the day every day we'd have a valid complaint. But on the other hand, you get dumbasses coming in here complaining "I pay $5 a month why the f**k can't I host uncompressed 1080p streaming video on the site? I have to use youtube!!!??" or something equally (or more) retarded.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Now on Steam!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.hitbox.tv/rayvolution
Offline gouessej
« Reply #25 - Posted 2014-12-26 22:02:06 »

Exactly. You're proposing that we change how every single person uses the internet. That would definitely be nice, but it ain't gonna happen.
It can happen but it takes time.

Might as well try to make the best of a bad situation?
Then, you can give your end users the choice between paying or seeing ads.

Okay, but the percentage of people on the internet using adblock is very small. Especially compared to the percentage of people on the internet who use sites like buzzfeed where the entire site is basically one big advertisement.

How do you get the vast majority of internet uses (who don't mind ads) to switch over to a pay-for-content system?
The corporation who created AdBlock is going to be prosecuted by several online service providers in my country. Its user base is enough to worry advertisers. You can give the choice to the end users or you can give them no choice. When the ad bubble breaks, there will be no other choice than suggesting something else, paid subscriptions, a price for each content, ... When you create, it's up to you to decide. Imagine that Facebook stops being "free of charge", most of its users would pay rather than loosing tons of data and their "friends".

Yes that's creepy, but how should ads become more relevant without knowing anything about the people they're advertising to?
The obtained data aren't only used for providing more relevant ads. I don't want people to know where I work, it's my choice. When I'm tracked, they don't respect my freedom and my privacy. Moreover, they can sell those data. It means that they make money from my personal data without my prior consent. No way I don't accept it. I have no profile on LinkedIn, it's intentional.

@CaptainJester I don't suggest only "paywalls". I proposed the global license and the global patronage. Moreover, in my case, I don't look for money, I pay for my hosting cost, I don't use ads, it's ok for me.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2014-12-30 12:58:58 »

@CaptainJester I don't suggest only "paywalls". I proposed the global license and the global patronage. Moreover, in my case, I don't look for money, I pay for my hosting cost, I don't use ads, it's ok for me.

Exactly. For you it is ok and that is great and I appreciate it. I also still appreciate it when people put things up for free and throw a quick Google Ad at the top in a banner. Take Kongregate for example. I have been on there for 7 years and they have always done advertising right. When you start to play a game you get an ad that plays and you have a choice after 10 seconds to continue viewing the ad, which I have done on occasion, or skip the ad. Then its right to your game with only a small banner ad at the top of the page.

I just read another perspective from Cliffsky at Positech Games. I encourage everyone to read it, it is a good read. http://positech.co.uk/cliffsblog/2014/12/30/why-as-a-consumer-you-should-love-and-support-advertising/

Offline Elsealabs
« Reply #27 - Posted 2014-12-31 11:53:56 »

However, the way to do this is by tailoring advertisements to specific types of people. The ads on this site promote games by the people on this site, for example, and that doesn't seem half bad.

But, in theory, that's what google/facebook/microsoft/amazon/everybody is doing when they "sell your information" as it is sorta misleadingly called. But we don't like that either!

The intent might not be mallicious, but the information is stored 'forever', meaning that it's not far fetched to assume one day it may be used against you.

I've always understood this argument, but I do not think it is that pressing of an issue, seeing as companies such as Google, Amazon, and other services that track various data about you, are opt-in, free services that you choose to use. And it's not like they're doing it against your will, or attempting to hide what they are doing. You choose to use the services that are most likely explicitly stating that they are tracking data about you in the agreements they make you read before using their service. And if someone ignores the agreement, and finds out that their data is being tracked later, then that is the fault of the user.

It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to get upset over something a free and opt-in service does. You made the choice to use that service, and if you simply didn't use that service, you wouldn't be tracked.

---

Ads are annoying, but I think they are necessary. As a student attending high school, with my only income coming from small freelance web development projects for small businesses around my area, I do not have a lot of money to spend on services that have pay walls. If some of the services I used required pay walls, I would simply not use them. For example, if this forum, or any forum for that matter, had a pay wall, I would simply not use it. The only service I pay for is Spotify, and that is because I wanted the upgrade to higher quality streaming. The ads were annoying (especially since Spotify plays random ad genres and does not target your music taste at all), but not annoying enough to warrant me spending money to get them to go away.

---

Edited-in addition:

Also, I feel like, if you are a service, such as a video game, that chooses to earn its revenue via an ad model, you should either abide by what it wants, or not use the service. Though you may feel that the revenue earned via this model is too minuscule to matter, this may not be the case. For example, what if the creator of the game payed an artist to have assets created, and expected to earn this money back via the ads in his game? By removing ads, you are not really being a fair sport. You probably wouldn't go in and steal something off the shelf of your local grocery store, so you shouldn't turn off ads either.

Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2014-12-31 13:54:22 »

Also, I feel like, if you are a service, such as a video game, that chooses to earn its revenue via an ad model, you should either abide by what it wants, or not use the service. Though you may feel that the revenue earned via this model is too minuscule to matter, this may not be the case. For example, what if the creator of the game payed an artist to have assets created, and expected to earn this money back via the ads in his game? By removing ads, you are not really being a fair sport. You probably wouldn't go in and steal something off the shelf of your local grocery store, so you shouldn't turn off ads either.

Exactly. Desktop Tower Defense made over a million dollars with this model.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #29 - Posted 2015-01-02 14:40:14 »

Also, I feel like, if you are a service, such as a video game, that chooses to earn its revenue via an ad model, you should either abide by what it wants, or not use the service. Though you may feel that the revenue earned via this model is too minuscule to matter, this may not be the case. For example, what if the creator of the game payed an artist to have assets created, and expected to earn this money back via the ads in his game? By removing ads, you are not really being a fair sport. You probably wouldn't go in and steal something off the shelf of your local grocery store, so you shouldn't turn off ads either.
That's why I encourage the creators to provide alternative means of "paying" them. The creators can have good intentions, I wouldn't make such assumptions about the advertisers. I don't encourage people to steal; when they really use a program whose author needs some support, they should accept the ads or pay but as long as the ads are used to steal data, I find it legitimate to block them all. I don't make any assumption about the revenue but I make some assumptions about the hosting costs. I can take your last sentence and use it to justify the fact that I block ads but then the thieves aren't the same.

It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to get upset over something a free and opt-in service does. You made the choice to use that service, and if you simply didn't use that service, you wouldn't be tracked.
It's not ridiculous when it violates the national laws which Google did several times. Unfortunately, numerous corporations track people without their prior consents. For example, Facebook keeps some information about people NOT registered on Facebook in shadow profiles.

Ads are annoying, but I think they are necessary. As a student attending high school, with my only income coming from small freelance web development projects for small businesses around my area, I do not have a lot of money to spend on services that have pay walls. If some of the services I used required pay walls, I would simply not use them. For example, if this forum, or any forum for that matter, had a pay wall, I would simply not use it. The only service I pay for is Spotify, and that is because I wanted the upgrade to higher quality streaming. The ads were annoying (especially since Spotify plays random ad genres and does not target your music taste at all), but not annoying enough to warrant me spending money to get them to go away.
Once again, the choice isn't only between ads and pay walls as in one hand the hosting costs are so sometimes small that it doesn't justify to put tons of ads and in the other hand I talked about other means to earn some money without creating pay walls even though they aren't for now as they need some massive legal changes (except donations via micro-payment, FlattR, ...).

Are you really sure that you would refuse to pay for this forum if the price was very small? (for example 0.10 US dollars per month)

Lots of creators will have a big problem when the ad revenues decreases a lot. It's better to diversify the source of revenue now.

From a different angle: once people pay anything for a service, they suddenly feel entitled to the most arbitrary shit. I'm not going to expose myself to that.
What about donations then?

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
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