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  Hydro's Game Engine  (Read 58881 times)
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Offline Ecumene

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2016-06-18 16:58:11 »

I don't think you realize that you do innovate.

It's an unspoken rule on JGO to write some-what formally when arguing, try not to directly mention anyone persecutioncomplex ( This is more directed to the entire thread )
https://sydney.edu.au/stuserv/learning_centre/help/styleStructure/st_improve.shtml
( I know I write informally all the time, but usually not to bash anyone unless ironically or to prove a point )

I'm making a specific texture format that is minimalist uncompressed created from a 32/24 bit png ... people use textures for height which is grossly unflexible and totally unnecessary. Loading is much faster too. I'm taking about making your game engine.

These sound like cool features. Why not put them into separate git repositories and work on them there (like java-lwjgl-texture-file and java-heightmap-file)? They have uses other than game development, why put them in a game library?

The java community should take a hint from python, C and rust scenes that there shouldn't be a huge library with a billion uses, isolate the uses into code people can use with existing software. Trying to lock people into using an engine because of its exclusive features is a useless bargain of time.

Offline KaiHH

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« Reply #31 - Posted 2016-06-18 18:29:19 »

Unix philosophy: "Do One Thing And Do It Well!" Pointing
Offline theagentd
« Reply #32 - Posted 2016-06-18 18:33:45 »

Understanding someone else's code completely takes a huge amount of effort. I know it's cynical, but the chance that someone will use or look through your (not yours specifically, just a general "your") engine is miniscule. At best someone may sift through it to rip some specific feature from it, but even that is rare. It's just much more effort than using a well-known, well-documented library with lots of discussion and tutorials around it already. I mean, ask yourself how many of the undocumented open-source engines you've used or looked through made by the people of this forum. I bet you haven't even tried out LibGDX at all. =P I am/was like that too.

If your goal is to learn more and get a deeper understanding of engines by rolling your own engine, then by all means do so. It's a massive learning experience, not to mention fun as hell. However, if you want other people to actually use and benefit from your work, then either contributing to an existing lib/engine (LibGDX, jME, LWJGL, JOML, anything) or building tools/utilities that build on top (or work alongside like Artemis) of other popular libraries is the way to go. That way you have a 1000x better chance to contribute something that matters.

Myomyomyo.
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Offline Hydroque

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I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #33 - Posted 2016-06-19 17:51:37 »

Quote
Understanding someone else's code completely takes a huge amount of effort.
Never quite ran into that error with code. With Matrices and huge amounts of cute math stuff, I have ran into that error. Such as JOML's (I read as Just Onother Markup Language lol) Intersection4 classes maths to check intersection. That I agree on.

Quote
I bet you haven't even tried out LibGDX at all.
I've said this multiple times. This thread has a boat load of hits. If at least one person benefits that is good.

That goes along with this quote: ...may sift through it to rip some specific feature from it...
This is exactly what I like. Rip the feature. Learn the feature. Implement the feature. Do something.

I learned Java by sample code. I pride myself with typing neat as possible code. This is subjective. (Its my enjoyment.)

Quote
( I know I write informally all the time, but usually not to bash anyone unless ironically or to prove a point )
Hippo Critical strike detected (hippo crit) Pointing persecutioncomplex Roll Eyes Grin Grin

Quote
Unix philosophy: "Do One Thing And Do It Well!" Pointing

Eww Unix :^)

Quote
These sound like cool features. Why not put them into separate git repositories and work on them there (like java-lwjgl-texture-file and java-heightmap-file)? They have uses other than game development, why put them in a game library?
They aren't going in a library. They will be distributed alongside with my terrain editor. The editor revolves around the XM file format. The development of XMT is complete. Please note I changed the name from mx to xm. Originally I had the name as "Mixer" and I have that habit in my head (mix files). I wanted XM at the start. It is XM.

XMT, XMH files to be exact. XMT is texture. XHM is heightmap. It will be feature a module to convert whatever I can support to XMT as a separate binary with utilizing String[] args.

Currently XMT only supports conversion from PNG. Future, definitely BMP. I am inable to convert from XMT to PNG. I have to reverse the decode process, which isnt a big deal.

Heightmaps are a different story. I actually need the editor to distribute it. If I don't, then how is the file going to be of any use? Sure, I could write a plugin for some other program but ivent found one. The file format's creation or loading is no secret. So i'll let the source code go. I won't support git hub for the editor. No need. I will have binaries. I created cute little icons for them just for this purpose. I will feature plugin support and dynamic editor variables. This will make it so the community can take over the project without having to touch the source code (this is why eclipse still exists). So theres that.

Final thing I want is to feature a compression module which compresses and uncompresses the files like PNG files. This will allow small, small files sizes and whats good is its lossless. I will feature a uncompression method. This will be a separate module. It SHOULD be used in production in places such as installers. This allows fast file transfer. I could just use 7zip maybe. Idk. I haven't tested anything.

Quote
there shouldn't be a huge library with a billion uses
Its obvious to see that I am working that way. Smiley

Another thing I wanted to note was, thank you for taking interest and or supporting this.






You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Ecumene

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2016-06-20 16:51:40 »

They aren't going in a library. They will be distributed alongside with my terrain editor.

Wouldn't it be better to have a library for your format and a second project for the editor?
No offense, but if it's proprietary and hard for other people to contribute to, nobody's going to use it.

XMT is texture. XHM is heightmap.
Texture != Image, unless there's a need for generating mipmaps of heightmaps

Currently XMT only supports conversion from PNG.
Ah, so it's a lossless compression format for images!
.. So PNG?

I actually need the editor to distribute it. If I don't, then how is the file going to be of any use? Sure, I could write a plugin for some other program but ivent found one.
A library for this format can have an encode function + decode function, it's a hell of a lot more easier than coding a proprietary UI around it.

Sure, I could write a plugin for some other program but ivent found one.
Worldmachine is a pretty cool editor, although it's non-free software. Make a java port of it with JavaFX with all the features and I'll pitch into this idea!
Actually that's a very good idea and if you're not going to do it I am

I won't support git hub for the editor. No need. I will have binaries.
If you're releasing binaries, source, and probably documentation, there is a need for git.

Another thing I wanted to note was, thank you for taking interest and or supporting this.
I don't know about that persecutioncomplex

Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2016-06-21 04:15:29 »

Wouldn't it be better to have a library for your format and a second project for the editor?
No offense, but if it's proprietary and hard for other people to contribute to, nobody's going to use it.
It doesn't need to be a library. But fine. I will make it a library. The library will feature the methodology and it will be imported for the system.

Texture != Image, unless there's a need for generating mipmaps of heightmaps
Its meaning is synonymous. Supporting mipmaps is a cool idea. I haven't read up on heightmaps well enough to implement the correct method. I am going to state that I will include mipmap generation for my XMH because making smaller version will allow the user to create lower res images for things such as performance, due to fragment shader. So that is a big, big feature I will have to implement. I know what they are and the user can supply the files.
java -jar XMER.jar xmt {File, ...}
That would generate an amount of mipmaps and order it I guess. The nature of how the images are stored helps out wonderfully.
Like I said, I have no correct method to do this generation.

Ah, so it's a lossless compression format for images!
.. So PNG?
At the moment there is no compression. So it is NOT a PNG. The methodology to use it is too dissimilar to call it a PNG.

A library for this format can have an encode function + decode function, it's a hell of a lot more easier than coding a proprietary UI around it.
Encode and Decode? Its compression, not encryption. Its a command line operation. This format makes it an all in one, but since I am now adding the library, the binary will request the library's methods. It also makes it so the program can utilize multiple different things, without reused code.

Worldmachine is a pretty cool editor, although it's non-free software. Make a java port of it with JavaFX with all the features and I'll pitch into this idea!
Actually that's a very good idea and if you're not going to do it I am
When development takes to release, you could let me borrow a copy. I could just find a copy of it online, or I am sure they would let me implement a plugin if I don't own it if they find my format good. Who knows. Takes time. Don't even know if they support all my methods. In this case, the library will come in handy and I can just rewrite it in another language if needbe.

If you're releasing binaries, source, and probably documentation, there is a need for git.
While git if fantastic for these things I find it quite an annoyance to use. I want to use SourceForge for the binaries, git for any source, and documentation is going to be let to the wiki there. I didn't want to use git at all. I will have the binary have an update feature. This allows, on run, for you to update the client. Updates will not be manditory, and I plan on providing a complete change log featuring everything that has changed with current patch from last patch. This is somewhat like League of Legends patch notes.

I don't know about that persecutioncomplex
Well you wouldn't of replied such a copious amount of text if you weren't intrigued. Note none of it is bashing the idea. Constructive Smiley

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline ShadedVertex
« Reply #36 - Posted 2016-06-21 04:30:07 »

Sometimes, bashing a person's idea can benefit him/her in several ways.
Offline Opiop
« Reply #37 - Posted 2016-06-21 13:08:44 »

Even less people would use your libraries if you don't have them hosted on some kind of dependency hosting site. SourceForge is not the answer. Git might seem like it's a pain in the ass until something happens and you have all your source code hosted online. It takes maybe a couple hours to learn. Or even just use the Github for Windows/OSX/Linux program that will do almost everything for you. No real excuses *not* to use Git at this point.
Offline Hydroque

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I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #38 - Posted 2016-06-22 02:01:38 »

As I said,
Quote
I find it quite an annoyance to use

I know how to use it.


You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline ziozio
« Reply #39 - Posted 2016-06-22 21:29:46 »

Encode / Decode = Encryption?? Really?? When people talk about building an encoder / decoder they talk about having the ability to read and write files of different formats.

BTW PNG is lossless compression, its basically contains a zip file inside itself. The benefits are is that the file is small even though the data could be large. What are the benefits of using your own file format?

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Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #40 - Posted 2016-06-23 08:52:07 »

Encode / Decode = Encryption?? Really?? When people talk about building an encoder / decoder they talk about having the ability to read and write files of different formats.
Nobody is talking about an encoder or decoder. I am talking about a terrain editor. There aren't file formats out there for heightmaps, other than PNG and maybe DDS, but I haven't looked at DDS.

BTW PNG is lossless compression, its basically contains a zip file inside itself. The benefits are is that the file is small even though the data could be large. What are the benefits of using your own file format?
I know. The benefits are loading and methodology. You should really read up a page to learn more about it.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline williamwoles

Junior Devvie


Medals: 4



« Reply #41 - Posted 2016-06-23 10:58:02 »

Not really sure about why people jumped on you for trying to demonstrate something game-related... I still think that the final purpose of the game development for majority of the community is still the fun.. You are having fun, that is the most important.. And the argument about "wheel reinvention" is the most pathetic argument you can hear to prevent you from having fun.. Remember, there are banks, hotels, restaurants, malls, cafeterias, etc providing you exactly the same service, everyday of your life, but somehow no one still realized that those have "reinvented the wheel" and still profiting.

I might have some time to give it a shot in the evening to give you some feedback, keep doing what makes you happy! May the Force be with you!
Offline Hydroque

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I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #42 - Posted 2016-06-23 11:15:06 »

Not really sure about why people jumped on you for trying to demonstrate something game-related... I still think that the final purpose of the game development for majority of the community is still the fun.. You are having fun, that is the most important.. And the argument about "wheel reinvention" is the most pathetic argument you can hear to prevent you from having fun.. Remember, there are banks, hotels, restaurants, malls, cafeterias, etc providing you exactly the same service, everyday of your life, but somehow no one still realized that those have "reinvented the wheel" and still profiting.

I might have some time to give it a shot in the evening to give you some feedback, keep doing what makes you happy! May the Force be with you!
I really appreciate the defense, but they are seasoned game developers who just want to get stuff done with the littlest effort and programmers don't like redundancy. So I can see where they come from. Please, don't try out the engine. It is out dated x).

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Ecumene

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« Reply #43 - Posted 2016-06-24 02:41:25 »

Just sayin, we wouldn't have to 'reinvent the wheel' if we'd all pitch-in on decoupled libraries for specific tasks. There's a library out there for everyone to work on, and if there isn't you're either not looking hard enough or really lucky, and it's your duty to start one.


Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #44 - Posted 2016-06-24 16:01:12 »

Just sayin, we wouldn't have to 'reinvent the wheel' if we'd all pitch-in on decoupled libraries for specific tasks. There's a library out there for everyone to work on, and if there isn't you're either not looking hard enough or really lucky, and it's your duty to start one.



Creating libraries has always existed. The only libraries I've needed have been LWJGL and twl's PNGDecoder, but that was obviously temporary. I have been looking at JOML and have ripped two functions. One function from inctercept, and the other one from Matrix4. These both because from the documentation I've looked at, none of it can be understood. Libraries do help there - understanding concepts. Reinventing the wheel is another term for learning how to do something. It is important to 'reinvent the wheel' because people die. If the person who made a library dies off and nobody knows what the hell the functions do, there is a problem. Comment documentation goes as far as saying what the function does, not how. Then if you want to take it a step further and make a thousand function doing a specific thing it becomes an unnecessary labyrinth. I already hate the current coding style we do. You have a main function then hundreds of sets of functions that are called once or twice. So called, "helper functions." I don't really think that is digressing, but you see my point.

I will make a library for my xm files, don't worry, but as far as fitting the only things you'd need goes so far, as per my point of what I just said.

Also, I thought of starting a blog site that features a bunch of different features which connect everything relevant.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Opiop
« Reply #45 - Posted 2016-06-24 18:02:15 »

Reinventing the wheel is nice when you're learning, but reinventing the wheel when there's already a well known existing solution and you're trying to get people to use your solution instead... well that's most likely a waste of time.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad. But I've seen a lot of "engines"/frameworks started here, and months later they are no longer in development. If you're making it for yourself, great! But don't expect other people to take up your solution when there's already *hugely* popular frameworks out there that have been solving problems for years. If your goal here is to get people to use your framework then I would advise you to get a team together and really hammer out a lot of solid features. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Efficiency is king when it comes to development, why would anyone decide to learn an entirely new framework that may not support all the features they used in their old framework? I think most game developers would rather stick with their tools that they already know work, that way they can just focus on making their games. I think part of what you don't understand is that a lot of us have tried to create their own game frameworks. Some of us were successful, a lot of us weren't. But I think in the end most of us learned that they're just for personal use, not to try to get others to use. We *do* have the experience, and a lot of us are trying to help you so you don't stumble before you can take off running (making games). I think everyone here would love to see you make a popular framework or game which is why we are trying to guide you. Every head strong "newbie" that has come through here (you're definitely not the first) always goes down the same route you're going. A couple of them have gone on to work on some really cool projects after they realize they're wasting their time with the whole "try my framework" thing. The ones who didn't realize that might be working on cool projects now too, but it took them longer to get to that goal. If you would seriously just sit down and listen to what some of us have to say you would learn a lot, and it might set you up for success earlier.

Quote
I already hate the current coding style we do. You have a main function then hundreds of sets of functions that are called once or twice. So called, "helper functions." I don't really think that is digressing, but you see my point.

What do you even mean by this? Condensing code isn't always the answer, sometimes sprawling code bases are necessary to keep code efficient and re-usable. Trying to force everything into huge functions is exactly what leads to what you're complaining about; unnecessary labyrinths. Not to mention, functions are self documenting when used correctly. Reasonably splitting up code into smaller functions that are properly named and have just the right scope makes code infinitely more readable. Sometimes it's necessary to have a function that is maybe only called once or twice, and I think knowing when to do that is part of moving forward as a programmer. Design is just as important as the actual code you write otherwise you're going to end up writing some pretty god awful spaghetti code.

Anyway.

For the love of god, don't pick apart my response to try to prove me wrong. Read some of the posts your peers here have taken the time to write out to you and really consider them instead of just tossing them aside because they might hurt your feelings a little bit. There are some brilliant people here you could learn a lot from, and not just about game design but about development as a whole. I haven't worked on a game project in years now, but I learned a lot about development and now I'm a professional software developer. I can attribute part of my "success" to some of the users here. Open your mind and seriously consider what people have to say, that's all I'm really asking you to do.
Offline Hydroque

JGO Coder


Medals: 25
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I'm always inspiring a good time.


« Reply #46 - Posted 2016-06-24 22:58:49 »

I ignored the rest of your stuff about halfway through the 2nd paragraph. I made this for LEARNERS. People who need a working example of a basic engine. It demonstrates rendering in a way. This shouldn't be used as a game engine.

I am creating an engine for myself. Yes it is good. Its nice to see you agree with me when I say reinventing the wheel is a good way.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Longarmx
« Reply #47 - Posted 2016-06-24 23:44:49 »

Your posts contradict themselves in this thread. You refuse to host your code on git or similar, which means that the vast majority of people will not even look at your code because they have to download it. (Which goes against your statements of wanting people to learn something from it)

In addition, you refuse to learn from others in this thread who have tried to help you. I know that I, for one, do not want to learn anything from someone who refuses to learn. (Except how refusing to learn cripples you)

Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #48 - Posted 2016-06-25 00:21:04 »

Your posts contradict themselves in this thread. You refuse to host your code on git or similar, which means that the vast majority of people will not even look at your code because they have to download it. (Which goes against your statements of wanting people to learn something from it)
Huh? Thats the whole point. Uploading the engine to git isn't something I am going to do. It should not be on git. Its not going to be maintained.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Opiop
« Reply #49 - Posted 2016-06-25 00:27:26 »

One of the easiest ways to pull down someone's project is through source control. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though, which is why we are trying to tell you that. You need to grow up and learn to listen to people who know more than you who are just trying to help. I'm not saying that person is me, but some very smart knowledgeable people have tried to give you good advice. You can be headstrong and excited and ignore everything we say, but at least have the decency to read our replies instead of blowing all of us off. We don't need that in our community.
Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #50 - Posted 2016-06-25 00:38:13 »

I'm pretty much done with this thread.

> Source is for people who need to learn
> It was provided as is
> I don't care about what you all think
> Whatever you think of me can be with held

It is not the place to read two posts then comment on something from ages ago which was resolved. I agreed with git, I am not going to go back and plop this crap up on git. It is provided as is. I am not going to implement anything further with this build, as I previously stated. Nobody is going to come into a thread telling me how I should do something different after they rant on how I am currently doing it all for nothing.

Whatever my intentions be, I would prefer them to be my intentions and not your worry.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Archive
« Reply #51 - Posted 2016-06-25 00:43:26 »

Your posts contradict themselves in this thread. You refuse to host your code on git or similar, which means that the vast majority of people will not even look at your code because they have to download it. (Which goes against your statements of wanting people to learn something from it)

In addition, you refuse to learn from others in this thread who have tried to help you. I know that I, for one, do not want to learn anything from someone who refuses to learn. (Except how refusing to learn cripples you)
I dont see anything wrong with downloading code. I actually prefer to download the code and open it up in Eclipse or some other IDE over looking at it through a web browser. I agree with your second statement on him refusing to learn from people who are trying to help him.

Offline NegativeZero

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« Reply #52 - Posted 2016-06-25 00:46:26 »

I dont see anything wrong with downloading code. I actually prefer to download the code and open it up in Eclipse or some other IDE over looking at it through a web browser.

You can download code in a .ZIP by hitting the green button in the corner on GitHub.


Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #53 - Posted 2016-06-25 02:23:20 »

I understand git has that download button.
I didn't put it on git. I used dropbox.
It comes as is.

Brynn,
I don't care about what you all think any longer
Is what I meant.

Its not much of a prophecy thing, but I do like to store my knowledge for others and help along those who struggle. Throughout my 4-5 years on Roblox, I mained a Scripters Help forum which helped debug code, code theory, and general script discussion. Lua script. Thats why I am such a Lua nut.

I have been doing that, but replying to peoples posts isnt necessarily bad.

I am not sure what you are saying by cool engine, might take into consideration for my next project means. I hope you aren't pulling from that engine. It is out dated with many-a-improvements to be made.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline ziozio
« Reply #54 - Posted 2016-06-25 17:37:37 »

So where's your latest code then? Can we take a peek?
Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #55 - Posted 2016-06-25 19:29:39 »

I'd save that for a new thread. This one was derailed and is gross to read.

My engine was recently forked and minimalised for terrain development. I am creating my xmh file, which is coming along fantastically. I can start development on the terrain any time I want, but I want to get more involved with the editor first. The reason comes from wanting to pack the terrain in a meaningful way with metadata that is a must. I can forsee the metadata, but only when it comes down to the core.

The original game engine features a ton of different things that I'd have to sift through and isolate.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
Offline Ecumene

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« Reply #56 - Posted 2016-06-25 19:56:30 »

This one was derailed and is gross to read.

Too be fair most of the posts here are yours persecutioncomplex

Offline Hydroque

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« Reply #57 - Posted 2016-06-25 21:37:06 »

It's an almost 50% ratio, as I reply to the replies.

You think I haven't been monitoring the chat? http://pastebin.java-gaming.org/c47d35366491fHere is a compilation <3
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by philfrei
2017-03-02 08:44:05
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