Java-Gaming.org Hi !
Featured games (83)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (539)
Games in Android Showcase (132)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (603)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  From Reddit: **** you Sun! Bundling trialware with the latest Java update is BS!  (Read 7950 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline CyanPrime
« Posted 2009-09-22 00:09:57 »

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9mlum/f**k_you_sun_bundling_trialware_with_the_latest/
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2009-09-22 08:19:17 »

+1 idiotic to say the least - and then opt out, what a bunch of *

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #2 - Posted 2009-09-22 09:48:53 »

Is this what Schwartz talked about earlier?
In any case, this is really bad  Sad

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline gouessej
« Reply #3 - Posted 2009-09-22 10:07:00 »

Sad I don't want to see this when updating:

Offline Mr. Gol

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #4 - Posted 2009-09-22 10:27:55 »

Is the checkbox checked by default (I always forget if that's 'opt-in' or 'opt-out')? That would be even worse.
Offline bienator

Senior Devvie




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #5 - Posted 2009-09-22 12:06:43 »

I want the google toolbar back!  Wink

Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 15


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #6 - Posted 2009-09-22 12:40:40 »

I just did an update (1st i've done since Dec 08!), and didn't see this - all I got was the old google toolbar package ( 1.6.0_15-b03 ) - Which is also an opt-out  Undecided

What version is this suppopsed to come packaged with? is it certain regions only?

Make Elite IV:Dangerous happen! Pledge your backing at KICKSTARTER here! https://dl.dropbox.com/u/54785909/EliteIVsmaller.png
Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 15


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #7 - Posted 2009-09-22 12:43:01 »

Is this what Schwartz talked about earlier?
In any case, this is really bad  Sad

Schwartz needs to have his hands cut off - I find his flailing hands very distracting in that video!

Make Elite IV:Dangerous happen! Pledge your backing at KICKSTARTER here! https://dl.dropbox.com/u/54785909/EliteIVsmaller.png
Offline Mike

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 87
Projects: 1
Exp: 6 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #8 - Posted 2009-09-22 12:51:25 »

According to the one that took the screenshot it is checked by default, he just took the screenshot after he unchecked it.

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline zammbi

JGO Coder


Medals: 4



« Reply #9 - Posted 2009-09-22 14:11:02 »

Meh really don't care myself, its gotta pay somehow. Though I hope to see quicker updates because of this!

Current project - Rename and Sort
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 840
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #10 - Posted 2009-09-22 14:22:03 »

asterisk asterisk asterisk asterisk Sun!

End user experience finally was on the way up... and now this.

I'm so happy my boss already gave up on clientside Java.
I wouldn't have been able to defend this crap.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social
Offline DzzD
« Reply #11 - Posted 2009-09-22 15:43:20 »

just crazy.... Sun must have a special Section looking for what can make end-user go away from Java... damn those people should have been fired out for such stupid idea....

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #12 - Posted 2009-09-22 15:54:22 »

Actually, the opt-out has been present for any random install the JRE pulls down (Open Office, Yahoo & Google toolbars, Puzzle Pirates, etc.). 

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #13 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:05:53 »

So what opt-out will be next? Porn?

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #14 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:19:28 »

So what opt-out will be next? Porn?

Well, hold on a sec.  You really can't equate the two.  Opt-out of a generally acceptable app vs. opt-out of a porn installer is not the same thing.

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 840
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #15 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:23:49 »

It's just that it gets getting worse all the time, for the end user that is, the JRE is getting better. Remember what happened to RealPlayer? At the rate Java Updates are pushed out, people will be annoyed several times, mistakenly install stuff they don't want, and then uninstall Java because they are sick of it. I didn't like the Google Toolbar, but hey, you guys need to make some millions, for hosting costs and a fair profit, I understand, but these applications are 'unknown, untrusted and therefore overall scary', which is several orders of magnitude worse than a Google Toolbar. You 'guys' might want to think twice about wasting the goodwill you have left.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #16 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:31:44 »

It's just that it gets getting worse all the time, for the end user that is, the JRE is getting better. Remember what happened to RealPlayer? At the rate Java Updates are pushed out, people will be annoyed several times, mistakenly install stuff they don't want, and then uninstall Java because they are sick of it. You 'guys' might want to think twice about wasting the goodwill you have left.

Actually, the JRE does not always pop up an opt-out/install 3rd party app window every time Java is updated, it is randomized.  As for the comparisons to RealPalyer, they are really different.  RP wanted use case information, personal data, etc. and would push offers even after the install was done and when you would go to just play a media file.

As it stands today, the system generates revenue for Sun that is pumped back into developing the platform.

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 840
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #17 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:43:49 »

As it stands today, the system generates revenue for Sun that is pumped back into developing the platform.

Okay. Let's say (this is 100% hypothetical) that you'd demand $1 for each JRE install.
Surely you could say that every dollar received would be pumped back into devloping the JRE, but at what cost ? If you scare off your end users, there won't be that much $1 payments.

I honestly think that this shareware is a step too far. End users barely accept toolbars from known vendors, anything further and people will either be annoyed (which is bad enough, even if they complete the install), or click the conveniently placed 'Cancel' button.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #18 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:48:08 »

Okay. Let's say (this is 100% hypothetical) that you'd demand $1 for each JRE install.
Surely you could say that every dollar received would be pumped back into devloping the JRE, but at what cost ? If you scare off your end users, there won't be that much $1 payments.

I honestly think that this shareware is a step too far. End users barely accept toolbars from known vendors, anything further and people will either be annoyed (which is bad enough, even if they complete the install), or click the conveniently placed 'Cancel' button.
To be clear, I have no part in the install deals that Sun strikes, that is the Java organization. 

Now, as I am honestly curious to hear other alternatives, how do you think Sun should generate revenue from their development effort of Java?  Again, I am really interested in hearing people's perspectives on this.

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #19 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:52:05 »

Charge out the butt for tech support?

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #20 - Posted 2009-09-22 16:52:54 »

This shit right here is why you hear users saying "don't install java, it'll break/slow down your machine". It's not the jre persay, but the extra apps that get randomly bundled with it. They don't know/care to differentiate between the core jre and the bundled crap, so they'll just avoid the whole thing - and worse, tell their friends to avoid it too.

And I notice whatever idiot makes the installer *still* can't manage to get logos at their correct size and instead resort to some really crappy looking scaling. Unprofessional touches like that are a red flag to users that make them think they're installing some kind of dodgy malware.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #21 - Posted 2009-09-22 17:00:33 »

Quote
Now, as I am honestly curious to hear other alternatives, how do you think Sun should generate revenue from their development effort of Java?  Again, I am really interested in hearing people's perspectives on this.

How have Sun been funding it all these years? Yeah, I know it's quick to say they haven't and thats the problem, but they really have been cashing on the market where Java really shines, enterprise server side development. Compliance testing, support, consulting and licensing to these markets has to be emminently more cash producing that targetting an emmerging market for Java like client side.

If Sun/Oracle need to make more money out of Java then shouldn't they use business sense and charge the people who make money out of the product and have lots of cash to blow - the Enterprise. Trying to cash in the market where you're already viewed as one of the weakest players is like taking a stick to your consumers and driving them to the other less encumbered alternatives (read Flash/Air/Javascript).

Kev

Offline SimonH
« Reply #22 - Posted 2009-09-22 17:03:06 »

I am really interested in hearing people's perspectives on this.
Though bundling shareware with updates is a really bad idea from my point of view, I can see that monetization is required. How about if installing or updating means you have to go to a webpage which contains (very valuable!) ad space? You could promote other products there, but avoid inflicting scary pop-ups or unwanted installs on the end user.

People make games and games make people
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #23 - Posted 2009-09-22 17:19:31 »

This shit right here is why you hear users saying "don't install java, it'll break/slow down your machine". It's not the jre persay, but the extra apps that get randomly bundled with it. They don't know/care to differentiate between the core jre and the bundled crap, so they'll just avoid the whole thing - and worse, tell their friends to avoid it too.

The thing is, general users are not saying that.  They just aren't.

Quote
And I notice whatever idiot makes the installer *still* can't manage to get logos at their correct size and instead resort to some really crappy looking scaling. Unprofessional touches like that are a red flag to users that make them think they're installing some kind of dodgy malware.

This, I totally agree.  The folks doing the installer need to do better.

As for Kev and SimonH's posts, I can't say I disagree with you.  The business and revenue side of Java is evolving and the people at corp are watching carefully.

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #24 - Posted 2009-09-22 17:24:57 »

What a horrible way to push software - trick consumers into installing something they didn't even want by making it opt-out.

Why can't java just be a programming language invisible to the end user?

I bet this extra advertising money is only needed for funding javaFX - which is a big unnecessary drain of resources. Swing, Java2D and JOGL have languished due to javaFX.

How about if installing or updating means you have to go to a webpage which contains (very valuable!) ad space? You could promote other products there, but avoid inflicting scary pop-ups or unwanted installs on the end user.

This is a much better idea

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #25 - Posted 2009-09-22 17:37:52 »

The thing is, general users are not saying that.  They just aren't.
I hear it all the time. From a "mom & pop" user's point of view, it goes something along the lines of:

1. Installs "java" because some game/app told them to during install.
2. End up installing Open Office / Carbonite Backup / whatever because they don't know if it's optional or needed, and because they just blindly click 'next' though installers anyway.
3. Curse when either a. Open Office pinches the Word/Excel file extensions ("it broke Word") or b. Carbonite starts dragging their system to a crawl with a scheduled backup or c. other installed app finishes it's trial period and starts opening nag screens every boot.
4. Blame the problem on "this java thing it said I needed to install". Wait for tech savy person to uninstall the problem app, then mentally remember to never install anything with the word "java" in it again.

I know you mean well Chris, but when was the last time you actually got roped into doing tech support for a non-tech savy friend? It's a completely different world out there and people will make broad generalisations and group anything in the same installer (or anything that *looks* like it's in the same installer) into one thing, and so if *anything* causes problems they'll blame the whole thing and never touch it again. It's even worse when the installer in question is for something intangable like java where they don't see any end result other than the spam-ware bundled with it.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 81
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #26 - Posted 2009-09-22 17:38:19 »

What really sucks about this is that its shown/pushed out on updates. Its understandable if this was done on a fresh install and download of java, but for updates? thats going too far IMO. Why punish end users by making them go through a full install process each time for an update (mostly due to bugs put there by sun in the first place). Java should really take a page from the flash update process here, simple unobtrusive progress bar, that completes with almost a single click and then disappears.
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #27 - Posted 2009-09-22 17:48:29 »

I hear it all the time. From a "mom & pop" user's point of view, it goes something along the lines of:

1. Installs "java" because some game/app told them to during install.
2. End up installing Open Office / Carbonite Backup / whatever because they don't know if it's optional or needed, and because they just blindly click 'next' though installers anyway.
3. Curse when either a. Open Office pinches the Word/Excel file extensions ("it broke Word") or b. Carbonite starts dragging their system to a crawl with a scheduled backup or c. other installed app finishes it's trial period and starts opening nag screens every boot.
4. Blame the problem on "this java thing it said I needed to install". Wait for tech savy person to uninstall the problem app, then mentally remember to never install anything with the word "java" in it again.

Completely understand this and we, being more technically inclined than most, have heard this before.  I just don't hear it much with Java.

Quote
I know you mean well Chris, but when was the last time you actually got roped into doing tech support for a non-tech savy friend? It's a completely different world out there and people will make broad generalisations and group anything in the same installer (or anything that *looks* like it's in the same installer) into one thing, and so if *anything* causes problems they'll blame the whole thing and never touch it again. It's even worse when the installer in question is for something intangable like java where they don't see any end result other than the spam-ware bundled with it.

Thanks Smiley  And you would be surprised how often I am called for "tech support" from family/friends (The other night, I was walking a family member through adding a wireless router that has a hidden name to their network list. At 11:00PM.  GAH!)  I am sure that most of us here have experienced this before.

I have no argument for you OT, and understand your POV.  Again, I am not responsible, but I can give input to those who are.

Offline bienator

Senior Devvie




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #28 - Posted 2009-09-22 18:09:28 »

installed 6u16 on a fresh WinXP VM image and saw no additional software installers and all images had the right size.
maybe its a vista thing... (the scaling issue)

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 840
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #29 - Posted 2009-09-22 18:35:49 »

Offtopic:
   Even the WinXP installer has a RED banner as header.
   It looks like some security alert.
   Make it BLUE, please.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

rwatson462 (32 views)
2014-12-15 09:26:44

Mr.CodeIt (23 views)
2014-12-14 19:50:38

BurntPizza (51 views)
2014-12-09 22:41:13

BurntPizza (84 views)
2014-12-08 04:46:31

JscottyBieshaar (45 views)
2014-12-05 12:39:02

SHC (59 views)
2014-12-03 16:27:13

CopyableCougar4 (58 views)
2014-11-29 21:32:03

toopeicgaming1999 (123 views)
2014-11-26 15:22:04

toopeicgaming1999 (114 views)
2014-11-26 15:20:36

toopeicgaming1999 (32 views)
2014-11-26 15:20:08
Resources for WIP games
by kpars
2014-12-18 10:26:14

Understanding relations between setOrigin, setScale and setPosition in libGdx
by mbabuskov
2014-10-09 22:35:00

Definite guide to supporting multiple device resolutions on Android (2014)
by mbabuskov
2014-10-02 22:36:02

List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!