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  Fewer end users?  (Read 1424 times)
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Offline mike_bike_kite

Senior Member


Medals: 1
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« Posted 2014-03-26 20:54:08 »

I'm an advisor on a PC forum and I've noticed a strong dislike of Java these days. Here's an example from one of today's threads:
"I still strongly feel most people would be better off without Java and, if they have software that depends on Java, replace it with software that doesn't require it. It may require buying some of the software needed and/or learning how to use new software (granted, that can be daunting) but that is better than leaving one's computer vulnerable to attack. "
Is anything being done to reverse this general opinion? I know Java 8 has Lamda expressions but perhaps 8.1 might have something that will encourage users to trust Java again.

PS I advise on PC builds and not on Java

Arcade swarm
Board Chess - Checkers - Othello
Offline gouessej
« Reply #1 - Posted 2014-03-26 21:06:20 »

Hi

There are security flaws in Word, Flash, Silverlight, Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, ... Oracle puts ads and malwares into the installer, you have to untick the check box not to install those craps, Oracle is just ruining end user experience. If there are enough contributors, Icedtea-Web will be ported to Windows which will allow Windows users to benefit of OpenJDK + an alternative implementation of Java Webstart and applets. Icedtea-Web doesn't fully support JNLP in applets yet but it doesn't encourage you to install craps on your machine.

Moreover, as several organizations including Mozilla Foundation has decided that all plugins should die, we have a lot of work to prevent them from succeeding.

Create great games so that people have no other choice than installing Java  Grin

Offline Rayvolution

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Resident Crazyman


« Reply #2 - Posted 2014-03-26 21:18:46 »

Hi

There are security flaws in Word, Flash, Silverlight, Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, ... Oracle puts ads and malwares into the installer, you have to untick the check box not to install those craps, Oracle is just ruining end user experience. If there are enough contributors, Icedtea-Web will be ported to Windows which will allow Windows users to benefit of OpenJDK + an alternative implementation of Java Webstart and applets. Icedtea-Web doesn't fully support JNLP in applets yet but it doesn't encourage you to install craps on your machine.

Moreover, as several organizations including Mozilla Foundation has decided that all plugins should die, we have a lot of work to prevent them from succeeding.

Create great games so that people have no other choice than installing Java  Grin
If Minecraft is any indication, I don't see java going anywhere anytime soon even with Oracle's crappy end-user experience. Wink

As long as they're fun games and useful applications written in java, it's not going anywhere short of the OSes themselves trying to outright block it.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline Rayvolution

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2014-03-26 21:22:57 »

I'm an advisor on a PC forum and I've noticed a strong dislike of Java these days. Here's an example from one of today's threads:
"I still strongly feel most people would be better off without Java and, if they have software that depends on Java, replace it with software that doesn't require it. It may require buying some of the software needed and/or learning how to use new software (granted, that can be daunting) but that is better than leaving one's computer vulnerable to attack. "
Is anything being done to reverse this general opinion? I know Java 8 has Lamda expressions but perhaps 8.1 might have something that will encourage users to trust Java again.

PS I advise on PC builds and not on Java

Most people who hate java are generally undereducated on java, or blame javascript because they don't know the difference. They see poorly written/optimized java applications and blame java itself instead of the programmers behind them. There's also a ton of old bad stigma from back when java was "too slow". Hell, it was only like what, 10 years ago the concept of a 3D game in java would of been insane, and now we have tons of 3D games, like Minecraft. 95% of the crap about java is outdated information from stubborn PC users. :/

Yeah, there's security flaws, but there's security flaws in everything, java was just in the spotlight a while back.

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline Phibedy

Senior Member


Medals: 8



« Reply #4 - Posted 2014-03-26 21:30:27 »

I never have any of those issues. I's because most people just buy a computer and use express-installation because they have no idea what they are actually doing.
It's like driving a car without any driving lesson. I don't think that it's a java-problem as oracle smashed buggy applets with shitty signing.
In addition most people don't even "know" java. They installed it because their computer told them to do so and use the applications but they have no idea what they are using.
So I don't see any reason to encourage someone to trust Java again,  because in the end the amount people who "care about the weakness of java" (in my opinion useless and old-fashioned) is insignificant. I haven't met a non-programmer, and those who blame java are mostly don't know what they are talking about, that complains about java security-issues  Roll Eyes
Offline TeamworkGuy2

Junior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #5 - Posted 2014-03-26 22:46:03 »

I think there is definitely a lot of negative feelings around Java.
When I mention that I develop software using java to family members, the general response is something along the lines of "oh, that thing that always pops up wanting to update."
Of course Windows, the Win API, drivers, OpenGL, etc. have to update as well for a C or C++ program to work, but people tend to accept these types of updates as necessary.

Smart applications like Firefox and Chrome just auto update (this relates to why browsers are trying to kill plugins). The average user never knows that applications auto-update except when the occasional program breaks, which the user blames on general computer unreliability.  On the corporate side, IT can tun off auto-updating into control panel or the program's settings if the company needs a specific version.

I've played Spiral Knights rather extensively, over a 1000 hours, and have heard very few complaints or even mentions of Java because Spiral Knights packages a small JRE within it's installation folder.  Everything runs exactly like Three Rings expects and no one ever complains; sure the bundled JRE might be out of date and security bug riddled, but end users will never know, so who cares...

There are so many compatibility and computer specific issues with Java's version, the Java class path, .jar double-click to run functionality, etc. that I think pre-bundled and jigsaw like JREs can solve.  The average user doesn't really care if your program takes up an extra 50MB of disk space.
Once jigsaw comes out, I'm sure a lot of LWJGL games could include a small pre-bundled JRE without their application size increasing dramatically by leaving out stuff like Swing (if possible), SQL, JDBC, XML, etc. packages.

I agree that Java has collected a lot of bad connotations over the years.  I think one of the easiest ways to 'fix' this perception is to hid Java.  Don't include the word 'Java' in error messages, bundle the JRE with your app, hid your .jar behind an .EXE or script wrapper.  Like Phibedy and Rayvolution have said, people don't understand and don't care Undecided
Offline loom_weaver

JGO Coder


Medals: 17



« Reply #6 - Posted 2014-03-27 01:11:47 »

I'm all for an embedded JRE.

Pretty much boils down to if your game requires more than a single download and a double-click it isn't packaged right.
Online princec

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Medals: 390
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2014-03-27 11:00:19 »

I'm the biggest Java advocate ever. Even I've disabled the Java plugin on all my browsers and the only reason I even have a system JRE installed is because it comes with the JDK which I use to run Eclipse. I advise anyone running Java to uninstall it unless they're forced to use it for something.

Java should always have been just a runtime library. The plugin was a terrible idea, thank goodness it's in its death throes now.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #8 - Posted 2014-03-27 11:19:19 »

I'm sure a lot of LWJGL games could include a small pre-bundled JRE without their application size increasing dramatically by leaving out stuff like Swing (if possible), SQL, JDBC, XML, etc. packages.
It's already possible with JiGong which was showcased during FOSDEM 2014. Personally, I won't try to hide Java, I will just try to ease the install of my game. For example, if I succeed in making an RPM, it will depend on OpenJDK. Maybe the Java plugin will die but Java itself will survive.

Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #9 - Posted 2014-03-27 11:51:34 »

IMO a runtime should only be installed on a server.

For anything else, bundle that sucker so the installation and updating is taken out of the hands of the end user and you can just provide them a download for their particular OS. Apparently Java 8 makes that even easier by providing a minimized runtime.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline mike_bike_kite

Senior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 2



« Reply #10 - Posted 2014-03-27 12:00:07 »

Perhaps we should have a little tutorial on how to bundle things as an exe. I've posted on here asking how to do this but I'll admit I find the various tools a bit (actually very) confusing. I guess it would be too much to expect the java compiler to optionally produce an exe for various OS. I assume this would be way more compact than producing 100MB downloads that play noughts and crosses.

Arcade swarm
Board Chess - Checkers - Othello
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #11 - Posted 2014-03-27 12:03:07 »

Perhaps we should have a little tutorial on how to bundle things as an exe. I've posted on here asking how to do this but I'll admit I find the various tools a bit (actually very) confusing. I guess it would be too much to expect the java compiler to actually produce an exe (for various OS). I assume this would be way more compact than producing 100MB downloads that play noughts and crosses.

We've been down that road before, having 100mb downloads is not a problem that needs solving in this day and age of high bandwidth.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #12 - Posted 2014-03-27 12:08:08 »

@gimbal I assume you're talking about the compact profiles, nice feature Smiley

I see two remaining problems:
- If I don't want to have any trouble with virus scanners and OSes, I'll have to sign my game on each platform (Apple Developer ID certificate, Microsoft Authenticode, <add your next toll here>)
- How can I manage automatic updates?

Offline mike_bike_kite

Senior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 2



« Reply #13 - Posted 2014-03-27 12:19:18 »

We've been down that road before, having 100mb downloads is not a problem that needs solving in this day and age of high bandwidth.
Perhaps. I know if I saw a download for a little game that was 100MB then I'd probably move on. I guess we're all different. I know for my server I have to pay for bandwidth (I believe 20GB a month) which would mean at max I could only every have 200 downloads a month and that's not taking into account general usage of the site. I wonder what the cost of running this site might be if the average download here became 100MB?

Arcade swarm
Board Chess - Checkers - Othello
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #14 - Posted 2014-03-27 12:29:11 »

@gimbal I assume you're talking about the compact profiles, nice feature Smiley
Yup!

Quote
I see two remaining problems:
- If I don't want to have any trouble with virus scanners and OSes, I'll have to sign my game on each platform (Apple Developer ID certificate, Microsoft Authenticode, <add your next toll here>)

Care to elaborate? What would you need to sign precisely that Oracle hasn't already signed?

Quote
- How can I manage automatic updates?

I am 100% and utterly in love with Mojang's launcher application idea.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #15 - Posted 2014-03-27 12:35:47 »

Why does everyone forget PDFs?  But really this is all silly.  The security of a Java 'application' is slightly better than the security of a C++ one.  End of story.  Or even more to the point...why care about what people think?
Offline mike_bike_kite

Senior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 2



« Reply #16 - Posted 2014-03-27 12:58:27 »

Or even more to the point...why care about what people think?
tell that to Betamax

Arcade swarm
Board Chess - Checkers - Othello
Offline gouessej
« Reply #17 - Posted 2014-03-27 13:14:55 »

I see two remaining problems:
- If I don't want to have any trouble with virus scanners and OSes, I'll have to sign my game on each platform (Apple Developer ID certificate, Microsoft Authenticode, <add your next toll here>)
Care to elaborate? What would you need to sign precisely that Oracle hasn't already signed?
Since Mac OS X 10.8, Gatekeeper prevents you from installing an application coming from Internet by default, I have to update the instructions to install my game as I said here:
http://sourceforge.net/p/tuer/tickets/3/

When you package your application as an .app file signed with an Apple Developer ID certificate, it "might" work without having to modify those settings.

Those companies want to make us pay, they just create some tolls. You have to pay so that they allow you to execute your code on their systems, you have to pay for "trusted" code signing, "trusted" time-stamping and/or using their market places. Some developers claim that you have less risk of false positives with virus scanners when using Authenticode but I'm sure it's wrong.

If you work around their tolls, one day they will find a way to force you not to do so, that's what happened mainly under Mac. If tons of developers move from Java Webstart to fat JARs or executables, Apple, Microsoft and the others will find a way to make us pay.

Online princec

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Medals: 390
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2014-03-27 13:21:46 »

Just ... pay the tolls. It's not really very expensive. If you're making free stuff then remember that there is no such thing as free - there are hidden costs in many other currencies than money. Safety, trust, bandwidth, patience. Etc.

As for auto updating... tried that. Worked reasonably well. Ended up just going Steam-only for simplicity's sake. (Note: no signature required on Steam)


Cas Smiley

Offline mike_bike_kite

Senior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 2



« Reply #19 - Posted 2014-03-27 13:37:50 »

Ended up just going Steam-only for simplicity's sake.
Is there a guide on how to do this. How much efforts required? You mentioned C++ before. What restrictions are in place? is there a sort of Steam emulator?

Arcade swarm
Board Chess - Checkers - Othello
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 390
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2014-03-27 13:52:41 »

Steam's a pro-solution really, and right now, it's not open to the public so to speak.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #21 - Posted 2014-03-27 13:56:59 »

Betamax you had to go and buy.  The consumer of one's game needed not know what it was programmed in.  And I haven't noticed tons of people suddenly throwing their android phones/tablet away in a reactionary fear to Java.
Offline Rayvolution

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Resident Crazyman


« Reply #22 - Posted 2014-03-27 14:07:49 »

And I haven't noticed tons of people suddenly throwing their android phones/tablet away in a reactionary fear to Java.

This has always made me laugh, the biggest hot-topic now a days is phone security, and one of the biggest phone operating systems is... *gasp* java based! Yes, none of those same users who complain about java are throwing out their java based phones. Tongue

Really it boils down to customer ignorance, everyone else complains that java on Windows is "Evil" and a "security risk" but no one complains on android, so magically it must be safer. That or they simply just don't realize that android apps are all java.

Also, for those of you who may be too young to remember (or those older ones who forgot) nearly all old school phones from back before "Smartphones" were big (back when every phone manufacturer had it's own little phone OS), were almost all based on Java technology. Tongue

- Raymond "Rayvolution" Doerr.
Retro-Pixel Castles - Survival Sim/Builder/Roguelike!
LIVE-STREAMING DEVELOPMENT: http://www.twitch.tv/SG_Rayvolution
Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #23 - Posted 2014-03-27 14:31:41 »

I'm an advisor on a PC forum and I've noticed a strong dislike of Java these days. Here's an example from one of today's threads:
"I still strongly feel most people would be better off without Java and, if they have software that depends on Java, replace it with software that doesn't require it. It may require buying some of the software needed and/or learning how to use new software (granted, that can be daunting) but that is better than leaving one's computer vulnerable to attack. "
Is anything being done to reverse this general opinion? I know Java 8 has Lamda expressions but perhaps 8.1 might have something that will encourage users to trust Java again.

All of the dislike and complaints is against the Java web plugin and not Java itself. Java is a major part of the server infrastructure of Netflix, Google, LinkedIn, or Amazon and people are fine with that. They are also fine with client-side embedded JREs like those used in Matlab or games like Wakfu. The Java web plugin is annoying and not useful and people are right to uninstall it and avoid it.

BTW, the Java 8 features are awesome but they really have nothing to do with the web plugin gripes or the popular confusion between Java itself and Java the web plugin.
Online princec

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Medals: 390
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2014-03-27 16:04:37 »

Unfortunately popular confusion is everything. The reason almost no-one uses Java to make games is because it was shit.

<edit> I see confusion even extends here Smiley Android is not Java. It looks superficially like Java, but Java it ain't.

Cas Smiley

Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #25 - Posted 2014-03-27 16:41:34 »

Unfortunately popular confusion is everything. The reason almost no-one uses Java to make games is because it was shit.

<edit> I see confusion even extends here Smiley Android is not Java. It looks superficially like Java, but Java it ain't.

Cas Smiley

Android uses some pieces of Java and supports apps to be written in Java source with very Java tools. It also offers C SDKs and much of Android itself is written in C.
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #26 - Posted 2014-03-28 08:31:48 »

Unfortunately popular confusion is everything. The reason almost no-one uses Java to make games is because it was shit.

<edit> I see confusion even extends here Smiley Android is not Java. It looks superficially like Java, but Java it ain't.

Cas Smiley

Android uses some pieces of Java and supports apps to be written in Java source with very Java tools. It also offers C SDKs and much of Android itself is written in C.

Google stole (an old version of) the language. Everything else is different. So no, its most definitely NOT "java-based". It does not support the proper API and it does not have a proper runtime.

@gouessej: thanks for the explanation! I see I'm running behind again and need to brush up on what the current state of affairs is.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #27 - Posted 2014-03-28 08:50:39 »

I guess I wasn't clear.  An application in Java, C++ or pretty much any other general purpose language (or most DSLs for that matter) has about the same "security" level: none.   Of course statistically something written in C or C++ is the more dangerous if I grab and run any old random thing off the web because they're simply more popular for writing malware.  It's not surprising that Joe average doesn't understand there's a difference from Java as a web service vs. Java as an application runtime.  My point about Android is that Joe Average probably doesn't know to associate "java" with "android" so there's no fear factor.  Thus why should I care if I'm building an application for Joe Average in java?  I don't.  I'd  have no reason to advertise the fact.  If it were written in C++, Forth or brainf**k I'm not going to advertise that either.  Because really..who cares?  Either it's interesting or it isn't.

To expand a bit more:  few java programmers make a mental distinction between java the language, java the libraries, java the services and java the runtime.  So why expect Joe Average to?
Offline mike_bike_kite

Senior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 2



« Reply #28 - Posted 2014-03-28 10:20:16 »

So do I get a nice concise argument for why they shouldn't remove Java from their systems for when moderators on that site suggest they do? Preferably in a way that Joe public (and I) can understand. Or should I just accept that the only way I can release software is as an exe and expect Joe public to download a new runtime for each install.

Arcade swarm
Board Chess - Checkers - Othello
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 390
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #29 - Posted 2014-03-28 11:30:30 »

You can, with some hassle, develop an exe launcher that auto-updates your jar files at launch. Like a sort of standalone Webstart. It won't be able to update its own JVM (without much hassle and grief) but then ... who cares. If it works it works, no need for a new JVM.

Cas Smiley

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