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  Brainstorming the future  (Read 15319 times)
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Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #60 - Posted 2011-08-23 22:37:42 »

I feel Java games are about to make a huge comeback. Starting with Minecraft, and onwards!

Indeed, Notch has boosted interest in Java. I was reading through the (terrible) chat when Notch was live-streaming for LD48, and most people were asking what programming was like and some even downloaded Eclipse and the JDK.

Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #61 - Posted 2011-08-24 23:14:11 »

I also down vote the 'general game dev site' suggestion, there are a lot them around (well maybe not a lot, but a few) and most have stagnant or decreasing populations of regular posters.  The kids today just don't do internet forums. Blogs, Facebook and twitter are all they know.  Hence I feel that forums are dieing venue. So far as the realm of all possible features, allegro.cc is site dedicated to the allegro c/c++ library that has a games depot and wiki.  Gamedev.net is the other feature-full site with dev blogs and other things.  I personally don't see that those features get a lot of use on any of the those sites.  Hence I'm just here for the forums, but I am curmudgeonly that way Tongue.

There used to be a lot of comraderie on this forum, it was the only place you wouldn't be laughed at for writing a java game.  It had the feel of 'us vs the world'.  But as cas always reminds us, there are a lot of obstacles to deploying Java apps of any kind, and the world is moving on from the desktop, to places where java is not always an option.

There is a wealth of info here, like the epic networking thread, that would be a prime candidate for the wiki. But otherwise, writing tutorials is a pita.  I tried that many years ago, and if anyone thinks it would be fun/worth while, you should try it.  You start of with the best intentions, then realize 'how much of this do I really need to explain?' can you assume the reader knows anything?  The Nehe tutorials (comments in line with code) are the best way to go for tutes imo.
Offline namrog84

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
Projects: 4


Keep programming!


« Reply #62 - Posted 2011-08-24 23:23:38 »

nonnus29,
I do agree with the down vote for general game dev site.

But incase you overlooked it.  Android is a hugely growing market, and Android is nearly entirely java.
Many tablets and smartphones are switching to Android, even many small indie devs have left apple for Android because of Apples overly strict and sometimes app killing policies.

Not only is Android constantly growing. There are a lot of mini projects underway to get Java to iOS in some shape or form.

Though I will admit, Consoles are still a big problem for both, though PS3 and wii are hard to get anything deployed.  Xbox live does make XNA and C# a very worthwhile competitor.
Though C# is extremely similiar to Java and wouldnt be a hard jump to make if you wanted to either port or simply make some 360 games.

and PC isn't dying. Also in my opinion, although it may sometimes seem like it, there are simply more forums out there in more areas, so the "thinning" you may occasionally see, is simply people finding their niche or their group that they like better.  Sometimes you stumble upon a forum for some random topic with 100,000s of posts and super thriving community and never even realized there was one.

Because information is so much more wildly available, people need to ask questions less so sometimes there are less forums.
Also with places like newgrounds or kongregate for flash games anyways. People can post games and don't have to post to forums asking as many people to try out.

Java may not have a site as big as newgrounds or kongregate(though there are some mini ones, that are growing) But one will eventually get it right. Especially with the coming improvements to java 7 and 8.


I'd like to point out that Forums aren't dying so much as changing/morphing.
A blog or twitter/google+ or social networks simply supplement them and in some ways they are better because each one is typically very specific. (sometimes to a problem/obstacle/solution and not to an entire subject(like a forum)

Also, there is a growing problem among app developers and even website developers on getting recognized because the internet is so vast, it can be really hard to simply get noticed.  It doesn't mean there are less of people or less interest in things, its just they spreading out to those "hidden cracks" in our view of the internet.

"Experience is what you get when you did not get what you wanted"
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Cero
« Reply #63 - Posted 2011-08-25 05:04:50 »

If that means it will die in the long run, then so be it. Let's just make sure this doesn't happen, as we're (slowly but steadily) producing more and more: both in quality and in quantity.

If Notch would mention on his blog that jgo is where he did hang around before Minecraft was super popular you would see some people coming here.

But obviously "Java is slow and not suited for games" is still burned into mainstream brains - aint going to change. Which is why java game programming isn't as popular as it rightfully should be.
Even when people learn Minecraft is Java; the comments I read were like "what he is using Java? Isn't the JVM way too slow for games?"

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #64 - Posted 2011-08-25 12:39:45 »

But obviously "Java is slow and not suited for games" is still burned into mainstream brains - aint going to change. Which is why java game programming isn't as popular as it rightfully should be.
Even when people learn Minecraft is Java; the comments I read were like "what he is using Java? Isn't the JVM way too slow for games?"

Seriously, my main reason in learning java for game is that "fact". don't you think it's challenging  Yawn

Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #65 - Posted 2011-08-25 12:53:22 »

Quote
But incase you overlooked it.  Android is a hugely growing market, and Android is nearly entirely java. ....

I honestly have no idea where you get this from my post.  But regardless, people doing cross platform game develop for the iphone and android are using objective c/c++.  You can do your boosterism fan boy act all you want but the reality hasn't changed in 15 years. Cas will attest to this.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #66 - Posted 2011-08-25 12:54:17 »

Ahem?

Kev

Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #67 - Posted 2011-08-25 13:12:00 »

Ahem?

Kev

Oh, xmlvm and other solutions not withstanding  Grin
Offline namrog84

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
Projects: 4


Keep programming!


« Reply #68 - Posted 2011-08-25 14:26:37 »

Quote
But incase you overlooked it.  Android is a hugely growing market, and Android is nearly entirely java. ....

I honestly have no idea where you get this from my post.  But regardless, people doing cross platform game develop for the iphone and android are using objective c/c++.  You can do your boosterism fan boy act all you want but the reality hasn't changed in 15 years. Cas will attest to this.

"and the world is moving on from the desktop, to places where java is not always an option." -nonnus

Java IS an option in Android and I believe it recently overtook iPhone in overall marketshare?(though its divided among some older phones)

Secondly, I'd like to defend myself on your "fan boy act" comment. We are in a Java forum you know and although I won't deny that I really do like Java.  I regularly program in C# (where I've had several jobs in) As well as a half dozen other languages. I personally am not a huge fan of Objective C but do program in it at least 3 days a week for the iOS. 
I typically see a fanboy as not only as a negative term but also as someone who is so in love with something they do not follow logic and arguments against it, even though their arguments are meritless. I am not that far gone, Java has its own set of problems as does other languages but it doesn't "suck" like a lot of people still think.

A LOT has changed in 15 years. I think you misinterpreted what cas was trying to convey.

"Experience is what you get when you did not get what you wanted"
Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 24
Projects: 3


One for all!


« Reply #69 - Posted 2011-08-25 14:44:35 »

What.. How do we do this with the account names? Cheesy

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #70 - Posted 2011-08-25 15:47:13 »

"and the world is moving on from the desktop, to places where java is not always an option." -nonnus

Java IS an option in Android and I believe it recently overtook iPhone in overall marketshare?(though its divided among some older phones)


Note I qualified that as indicated.  I didn't say 'java is never an option' I said 'not always'. You mention android, not me.  I can't be anymore clear, if you intentionally misread others posts that's your problem and no one elses.

Wee pissing match with some anonymous person on the intarweb isn't this grand?
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #71 - Posted 2011-08-25 16:11:13 »

http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/24/rims-new-qnx-blackberrys-will-run-android-apps/
Will this help at all?
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #72 - Posted 2011-08-25 16:59:37 »

I also upvote an Android section; I think it would help to diversify JavaGaming without losing the 'Java' bit.

I think in total the whole site needs to move away from being just a forum. Move the forum to /forum, and then put an articles and games show case section in, which is automatically featured on the front page.

If people's games/articles were on the front page of javagaming.org, when you visited, then people would be more inclined to put some online.

You could also allow people to submit Java related news, which would also get put onto the front. It would make JavaGaming into more of a place that people would visit daily to read, and get information.

Offline namrog84

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
Projects: 4


Keep programming!


« Reply #73 - Posted 2011-08-25 17:33:27 »

to further expand on JL235
What about a Android Java Gaming review section?(either a pure number score, and/or small snippets/comments (with links to android marketplace)
That way we could drive non programmers to the site to check out the non programming ( but java only, game related stuff)

Obviously it wouldn't be a "review/score/rating" for ALL android games, but either ones specifically selected with a slight bias towards people who frequent here.


Where either JGO members or selected JGO members vote?
(selected members being anyone who meets a minimum criteria)

"Experience is what you get when you did not get what you wanted"
Offline Z-Man
« Reply #74 - Posted 2011-08-25 22:17:27 »

I agree with what JL235 said, having articles, reviews, news, and what not would be awesome to have. Right now I can go multiple places for Java news but not so much for Java Gaming news.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #75 - Posted 2011-08-25 23:48:44 »

If articles/games showcases/news are added to JGO, then what is most important is _how_ this is done. Just adding them isn't enough, they need to be done in a way that gives an incentive for people to both view and build them.

If they are hidden away under a /articles tab, then no one will look, and no one will bother making any more. If the way to add more is indirect, then people will read, but never contribute, and it will dry up. If these features are added, then they need to be prominent. Adding them is not enough.

It might also be nice to centralize every new comment/post/article/game/etc into a list on the front page. A bit like on Reddit, or the Greenfoot Gallery.

Offline aazimon
« Reply #76 - Posted 2011-08-26 00:01:13 »

I like the articles/games showcase/news for a front page. It would have to be in a "glossy look", like you can see on many news websites. A short paragraph to grab the reader's attention and a link to the more indepth article. Adding the latest to the top.
The individual poster should be responsible for making them presentable, unless someone volunteers to edit this front page. Establishing a format will help with the presentability.

Article one with some text. And a link.  Article two with some text, and a link.
   
Article three with some more text, and a link.  Article four with text and link.
Offline Swattkidd7

Junior Member





« Reply #77 - Posted 2011-08-26 00:06:55 »

Nobody responded to having a place to put all the featured game as some sort of "java portal" (since this site already has a lot more traffic then most java portals ever get) could help get java games exposure, featured games feedback and maybe even some money for developers and the site? Are my posts invisible or is this just a bad idea  Huh lol
Offline namrog84

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
Projects: 4


Keep programming!


« Reply #78 - Posted 2011-08-26 01:23:44 »

It might also be nice to centralize every new comment/post/article/game/etc into a list on the front page. A bit like on Reddit, or the Greenfoot Gallery.
Isn't that what the following functions are supposed to do?   
"Show unread posts since last visit. "
"Show unread posts since epoch."
Also at the bottom the "Java-Gaming.org - Info Center" where it has the last 50 active posts is supposed to simulate?

I know its nothing like reddit in its scale/scope but for new comments/post is does it a little bit.

"Experience is what you get when you did not get what you wanted"
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #79 - Posted 2011-08-26 02:39:59 »

It might also be nice to centralize every new comment/post/article/game/etc into a list on the front page. A bit like on Reddit, or the Greenfoot Gallery.
Isn't that what the following functions are supposed to do?   
"Show unread posts since last visit. "
"Show unread posts since epoch."
Also at the bottom the "Java-Gaming.org - Info Center" where it has the last 50 active posts is supposed to simulate?

I know its nothing like reddit in its scale/scope but for new comments/post is does it a little bit.

To clarify, I meant that it needed to include articles, games, comments and new forum replies in that list. Not just forum.

But no, I'd argue those parts of JGO just aren't the same. The two sections you have to click to, and those links are quite easy to miss. The list at the bottom is also way down at the bottom, again easy to miss.

I am saying that the front page, without scrolling, needs to show new content. That could be a featured game or article, plus small links to other new items, ideally with something graphical to back up each of those. Otherwise the incentive to both use and contribute to those sections is dramatically reduced, when you are required to 'do x' before you can see them.

People can be very fickle over small differences. For example Amazon have found that a slow down of just 100 milliseconds on their page loads, will cause a drop in sales. Google have found similar with their search results. That is why both sites tend to load very quickly. Things that seem small to regular users, can be surprisingly big barriers to new users and lurkers.

Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #80 - Posted 2011-08-26 08:02:30 »

Nobody responded to having a place to put all the featured game as some sort of "java portal" (since this site already has a lot more traffic then most java portals ever get) could help get java games exposure, featured games feedback and maybe even some money for developers and the site? Are my posts invisible or is this just a bad idea  Huh lol
This is a brainstorm. Everything is read (at least by me...) and once the dust settles, we'll make some concrete plans. Meanwhile, keep 'em coming!

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Scarzzurs
« Reply #81 - Posted 2011-08-26 08:47:42 »

How about:
  • Allowing non-java-programmers to the website. My audio designer couldn't get access due to having minor programming knowledge (the Captcha). I still think he's a valuable asset to me, and could perhaps be to others as well. I suspect some graphical people might also come in handy for many of us without artistic skills in that area...
  • Making the website become more alive with an instant messaging service like used on gamejolt.com? Maybe someone could write an front-end to the JGO irc channel (Which I'm the only one lurking in at the moment :O)

- Scarzzurs

My games and Projects:
BlastingPixels.com,
Old website
Offline dishmoth
« Reply #82 - Posted 2011-08-26 11:01:37 »

This is a brainstorm. Everything is read (at least by me...) and once the dust settles, we'll make some concrete plans. Meanwhile, keep 'em coming!
This is a bit of a weak suggestion, but since you insist...

Thinking about how to up the traffic in the Showcase section.  We've already got a separate "Best of Showcase" section (i.e., Featured Games).  Maybe we could also have the opposite, a "Not Ready for Showcase" section.  Any Showcase thread that's first post doesn't include screenshots and a link to working (preferably playable) code (Applet or JNLP could be required) would get moved to this section until it meets those criteria.  (Maybe there could be a strict template for Showcase posts: Title, Author, Development status, Description, Screenshots, Links, etc.)

I don't think this applies to many posts in practice, but it would give people a bit of incentive to make their Showcase submissions as player-friendly as possible.

Simon

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #83 - Posted 2011-08-26 11:12:39 »

I second that, don't think it's weak at all. Showcase posts should have at least title, description, screenshots and link. It's just a close post for me if I don't see images first most of the time.

Kev

Offline Z-Man
« Reply #84 - Posted 2011-08-26 13:23:13 »

How about:
  • Allowing non-java-programmers to the website. My audio designer couldn't get access due to having minor programming knowledge (the Captcha). I still think he's a valuable asset to me, and could perhaps be to others as well. I suspect some graphical people might also come in handy for many of us without artistic skills in that area...
  • Making the website become more alive with an instant messaging service like used on gamejolt.com? Maybe someone could write an front-end to the JGO irc channel (Which I'm the only one lurking in at the moment :O)

- Scarzzurs
JGO has an IRC channel O_O I didn't even know such a thing existed. Part of the problem with that though is JGO has a lot of people in a lot of different time zones, that may be why your the only one on. Or nobody uses it...
Offline namrog84

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
Projects: 4


Keep programming!


« Reply #85 - Posted 2011-08-26 13:44:36 »

Although I do agree that the focus should be on java and on gaming.
However, as someone else pointed out.

Perhaps we could have a secondary (even possibly a restricted membership) for "artists" or "musicians"

Where they can have a different set of "tests" or "captcha" and aren't allowed to post a few specific forums but have their own hang out. A specific test that requires photoshop/gimp for artists and some piece of knowledge specific question for musicians, as we could definitely use some artists that hang out here on occasion.

"Experience is what you get when you did not get what you wanted"
Offline dishmoth
« Reply #86 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:05:02 »

Perhaps we could have a secondary (even possibly a restricted membership) for "artists" or "musicians"

Erm, is JGO really so great that there are artists and musicians queuing up to be secondary members?

Offline namrog84

JGO Ninja


Medals: 46
Projects: 4


Keep programming!


« Reply #87 - Posted 2011-08-26 14:12:58 »

Perhaps we could have a secondary (even possibly a restricted membership) for "artists" or "musicians"

Erm, is JGO really so great that there are artists and musicians queuing up to be secondary members?

I really do not know, but I don't feel it is something we shouldn't exclude pre-maturely. As Scarzzurs just mentioned he had an audio designer friend who wanted to join but couldn't pass the programming captcha test. 

I'll admit if you have an artist friend, you could always just give him the answer, but you never know if there are people who might come here and then leave because they are scared away from that.   I am positive there are a few artists out there who try to avoid the big areas so that they can find places to get experience and whatnot.

You never know until you try. 

"Experience is what you get when you did not get what you wanted"
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #88 - Posted 2011-08-26 20:22:30 »

If a musician really wants to put their stuff online, they will join Sound Cloud, not a Java Gaming community. Artists have Deviant Art. There are also multiple alternatives to those, far more art and audio dedicated.

Doing it right, would require lots of work, and I think 'sound and art for Java games' is just too big of a niche to justify that.

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #89 - Posted 2011-08-27 11:22:47 »

How about:
  • Allowing non-java-programmers to the website. My audio designer couldn't get access due to having minor programming knowledge (the Captcha). I still think he's a valuable asset to me, and could perhaps be to others as well. I suspect some graphical people might also come in handy for many of us without artistic skills in that area...
  • Making the website become more alive with an instant messaging service like used on gamejolt.com? Maybe someone could write an front-end to the JGO irc channel (Which I'm the only one lurking in at the moment :O)

- Scarzzurs
JGO has an IRC channel O_O I didn't even know such a thing existed. Part of the problem with that though is JGO has a lot of people in a lot of different time zones, that may be why your the only one on. Or nobody uses it...
Well AFAIK, JGO members usually hang out in the #lwjgl channel on FreeNode Wink

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