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  Bit pissed off at uk school system...  (Read 12295 times)
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Offline lcass
« Posted 2015-02-10 18:45:44 »

Yer...
https://www.change.org/p/nicky-morgan-mp-revoke-the-right-for-teachers-to-search-students
The law permits teachers to bypass parents views , student privacy allowing them to search without consent or warning for ANY item , copy information off phones .
The most ironic part is they told us this on internet privacy day ...

Please share your views on the matter.
Offline trollwarrior1
« Reply #1 - Posted 2015-02-10 18:47:20 »

Do students have the right to resist being searched?
Offline Abuse

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2015-02-10 18:59:30 »

Completely reasonable IMO.

Students are minors in the care of the school; the school has a duty of care towards the other students & staff.
If searching students is necessary to execute that duty of care, all power to them.
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Offline lcass
« Reply #3 - Posted 2015-02-10 19:08:23 »

If searching the students is that necessary then it should require consent from parents and multiple school staff , this is not a prison its an area for teaching them.
Offline ags1

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2015-02-10 19:09:47 »

My daughter is a UK teacher, I hear all sorts of horror stories.

Offline Gibbo3771

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2015-02-10 19:21:29 »

this is not a prison its an area for teaching them.

There was 2 stabbings at my school for the whole 4 years I was there. It may as well be a prison.

The UK education system is a joke anyway, soon as you grind through and get secondary school qualifications you go to a "real school" called a university, a place where tutors are paid money and not crack cocaine and what they teach you is current and relevent to the actual course.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2015-02-10 20:09:56 »

Minors are minors. When I hand my kids over to other grown ups, they're the boss. End of. What they say goes and my kids don't have any say so in the matter. I wouldn't like to send them to a school where teachers found the need to routinely search children for dangerous things but when I was a lad teachers didn't think twice about forcing you to turn out your pockets to find contraband sweets or fags. And we wouldn't have thought to complain about it, being against the school rules and all.

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Offline lcass
« Reply #7 - Posted 2015-02-10 20:30:51 »

I think they have every right to request you to do that but have no right to force you to or frisk you without consent.
Offline princec

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2015-02-10 21:04:33 »

Depends on the circumstances. Frisking is possibly a little beyond the pale, at least in the civilised bits of England where I grew up.

Cas Smiley

Offline Slyth2727
« Reply #9 - Posted 2015-02-10 21:26:10 »

Well there's 2 sides to the matter. Obviously it's great if the student has something illegal/dangerous or has information on their phone that, if acquired, could stop something terrible happening. On the flip side I could certainly see teachers taking advantage of this. There are many teachers at my current school (in the US) that would take this opportunity and have a great time pulling all sorts of bulls**t. The majority of the teachers there are great but you're always going to have a few that hate their job and will pull stunts like they were a young student themselves. I hate to put it like that, but unfortunately it's how things can play out. Give someone power and they're going to abuse it if that's their personality.

They should have some sort of rule where the teacher needs to at least call into the main office and provide ample reason for the search and get a 'yes' from someone before being able to do anything. Not too much effort to the point of where the teacher would just ignore small things but enough to where they won't be able to search a kid just because they're having a crappy day or don't like the kid.

Again, don't take this as me saying all teachers are power abusive freaks; I love most of my teachers.
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Offline Matth59

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2015-02-10 21:45:33 »

I did not know they were so rigid in England, really terrible Shocked persecutioncomplex. In Italy professors can hardly ask us what we have under our desk (and in fact we usually have sweets there, hehe Grin Cool, the Wednesday we buy like 10-20 sweets that we give to our mates )!

However, by my mind students must be considered as persons and not stupids, after 11-12 years they are considerable conscious. About this I have some ideas on how school must be. It must be a place to study and compare with others, totally not a prison, homeworks must be optional(considered as a training)  and unsatisfactory remarks(idk how it works in other o)  must be used to say a thing to parents like "Mario have problems in the test and he doesn't his homeworks everytime, can you help him study?" and not "Mario didn't his homeworks"(like in Italy, again, idk in other countries).

Returning to the initial argument, law is very bad in some cases, I totally disagree with that law.
In your country how is the school, how it works?

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Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2015-02-10 21:48:05 »

Things like this make me cringe for one reason: the lack of standardization, in terms of enforcement and "who gets searched" vs who is left alone.

That lack of standardization turns things like this into an excuse, or at least an opportunity, for unfair treatment of certain groups.

"I saw that white kid with a cell phone earlier, but I'm going to let it slide because I don't want to be an overbearing teacher."

"Uh-oh, that black kid looks shady and is probably using that cell phone to deal drugs, better search him."

(I'm realizing now that I'm showing my age by assuming cell phones are still disallowed in schools, substitute whatever is currently disallowed, maybe pogs or something?)

I'm not saying every teacher is an evil racist, but when you leave something like this up to "gut instinct", personal prejudice quickly becomes institutionalized prejudice.

On the other hand, student's rights are a pretty funny concept. You're at an age where you're not quite children anymore, so you buck against the rules that apply to children, but from society's perspective, you're still a bunch of kids. So "movements" like this don't last very long, especially because in a couple years when you graduate, you won't care anymore either.

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Offline delt0r

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2015-02-11 14:40:49 »

My daughter was 14 when we moved to Austria. In Austria your almost legally an adult. As in that is the age of consent (assuming both parties are only like 1 or 2 years apart in age) and its when you can get permanent criminal record. There are even rules about if i can even see her report. Once she is 16 she has to sign to give permission for us to see it! So searches by teachers was simply not allowed anymore than any other random person is allowed to do that.

I can see both sides of the argument, but i must ultimately come up on the side of individual rights. How does searching a students phone make for a better school for anyone? It doesn't.

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Offline Longarmx
« Reply #13 - Posted 2015-02-11 15:11:21 »

Just remember, in the US (and probably also UK), student rights == no rights. Here in the US, when a student walks into a school, the administration becomes the student's "parents," and the administrators absolutely have the right to search them.

Offline lcass
« Reply #14 - Posted 2015-02-11 17:05:57 »

Another way to look at it is , even if you searched them will tht change them as an adult , if they are the kind of person who will do those crimes anyway you are not changing the smallest thing.
Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2015-02-11 17:18:16 »

Another way to look at it is , even if you searched them will tht change them as an adult , if they are the kind of person who will do those crimes anyway you are not changing the smallest thing.

I can see where you're coming from in your dislike of this system, and like I said above it makes me cringe as well.

But I think your logic here is flawed. That's like saying "well, if somebody is going to steal when they're an adult anyway, you might as well not punish a child for stealing another kid's toys."

We punish children so that they learn there are consequences to their actions, and take that lesson to adulthood. Your logic is a bit like saying "well, people get into car accidents all the time, so what's the point of requiring a driving test to get a driver's license?"

You can make arguments against teachers being able to search students, but I don't think this is one of them.

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Offline Drenius
« Reply #16 - Posted 2015-02-11 19:53:39 »

Not the best arguments actually...

Children get punished because in their age every single little experience can have significant impact on their later personality.
After a certain age, and normally at last with puberty this effect wears mostly off and you will most likely reach not much with it.

And tests are something to check whether they are able to do something they actually want, so how does this even compare to being searched?
Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #17 - Posted 2015-02-11 20:00:49 »

After a certain age, and normally at last with puberty this effect wears mostly off and you will most likely reach not much with it.

Okay. So police should stop pulling over people who drive too fast, since the laws against speeding didn't stop them?

I just think this is an entirely different argument. "We shouldn't search students because it won't stop them from doing anything illegal" is a bit of a mu argument, since that's not really how reality works. We don't say "oh well, we can't prevent 100% of murders, might as well not make it illegal for anybody."

And tests are something to check whether they are able to do something they actually want, so how does this even compare to being searched?

I'm pointing out the flaw in the logic that says "XYZ won't fix 100% of the problems, so we might as well not even bother with it".

Again, I think there are valid criticisms of these searches, but "students will do bad things no matter what" is not one of them.

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Offline Drenius
« Reply #18 - Posted 2015-02-11 20:03:45 »

To be totally honest, I am not following the conversation.
Your points just seemed not to fit onto the post they were directed at to me, so I'm glad this caused you to do some clarification.
Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2015-02-11 21:15:16 »

To be totally honest, I am not following the conversation.
Your points just seemed not to fit onto the post they were directed at to me, so I'm glad this caused you to do some clarification.

And I'm glad this caused you to actually read the conversation? Not quite sure how to reply to "I didn't read this but I disagree with you", haha.

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Offline Gibbo3771

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2015-02-11 21:39:53 »

To be totally honest, I am not following the conversation.
Your points just seemed not to fit onto the post they were directed at to me, so I'm glad this caused you to do some clarification.

And I'm glad this caused you to actually read the conversation? Not quite sure how to reply to "I didn't read this but I disagree with you", haha.

I think he meant he was not following your argument and how it fits into the conversation :p.

Also when is this being put in? By whom? Where is the source? It is probably just another "anti-muslim" politician who generalises them as "terrorists", since these sort of things tend to creep up shortly after stories of young kids going to fight for ISIS and the like.

But that is just my assumption, since every politician is jumping on the "get rid of the foreign people" bandwagon as the election in may gets closer.

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Offline HeroesGraveDev

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« Reply #21 - Posted 2015-02-11 22:20:08 »

The problem I see here is whether the trust should be placed in teachers or students.

If teachers are allowed to search students then you are trusting they will only do it when they feel it is neccessary and not use it as an excuse to invade the students privacy or discriminate.

If they aren't then you are trusting the students not to have their hands on anything dangerous, illegal, or maybe just against school rules.

The problem is that neither side can really be trusted (there are countless stories of both sides abusing the trust given to them), therefore the authority is given to the group that is (supposedly) most trustworthy of the two.

Then it comes down to the main issue of any sort of surveillance: Who's watching whoever is watching us?

There needs to be stricter guidelines in place and teachers should be held accountable for any abuse of trust.

Offline JESTERRRRRR
« Reply #22 - Posted 2015-02-12 03:32:06 »

I hate the "if you have nothing to hide" argument, but when it comes to school and minors I'm all for it, seeing as you LITERALLY only carry very specific items, and what with certain knife based events I honestly don't see the problem.
this is not a prison its an area for teaching them.
The UK education system is a joke anyway, soon as you grind through and get secondary school qualifications you go to a "real school" called a university, a place where tutors are paid money and not crack cocaine and what they teach you is current and relevent to the actual course.

Well I'm guessing that's based from experience but my experience of university was the complete opposite - a complete f**king joke. School was far better and I actually learned more - much more. As for current and relevant to the course, that's the entire point of school, to teach you key skills required for all areas and a good all-round education.


EDIT: I missed the bit about actually looking through someones phone - the data. Is that actually allowed? How can they possibly enforce that if the phone is password protected? Someone please clarify, because if that's the case then I'd change my tune.
Offline nerb
« Reply #23 - Posted 2015-02-12 06:22:18 »

I can understand people not liking the idea of being searched, but as a parent I would be quite supportive of the idea if it created a safer environment for my children. Would you really want to send your children to a school where someone else's little dirtbags are lugging a knife around?

I am also a firm believer that if you voluntarily enter someone else's property (such as a house, business, or institution of any kind) then you also subject yourself to any rules that they impose as a condition of entering the property. Simple examples include removing your shoes before entering a person's house (if customary), or subjecting to a bag search upon exiting a shop. If you disagree with these rules, then you shouldn't enter the property.
Offline Sickan
« Reply #24 - Posted 2015-02-12 09:54:43 »

I am also a firm believer that if you voluntarily enter someone else's property (such as a house, business, or institution of any kind) then you also subject yourself to any rules that they impose as a condition of entering the property. Simple examples include removing your shoes before entering a person's house (if customary), or subjecting to a bag search upon exiting a shop. If you disagree with these rules, then you shouldn't enter the property.
Yeah right, because all children voluntarily go to school every day.
Offline princec

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« Reply #25 - Posted 2015-02-12 09:56:50 »

Relatedly: they're not actually allowed phones in most schools here either. Phones currently being a major source of bullying and theft/mugging/robbery at school. Not to mention WTF ARE YOU DOING ON YOUR PHONE INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO THE TEACHER!?

Cas Smiley

Offline nerb
« Reply #26 - Posted 2015-02-12 10:15:44 »

I am also a firm believer that if you voluntarily enter someone else's property (such as a house, business, or institution of any kind) then you also subject yourself to any rules that they impose as a condition of entering the property. Simple examples include removing your shoes before entering a person's house (if customary), or subjecting to a bag search upon exiting a shop. If you disagree with these rules, then you shouldn't enter the property.
Yeah right, because all children voluntarily go to school every day.

No, their parents make that choice for them. But it will be parents who get on their high-horse and start complaining that "you can't search my little Jimmy because he is too precious, and you are infringing on his rights, even if he did take a knife to school". My point is they can take little Jimmy and piss off then. They can go find another choice of school if they object so heavily.
Offline princec

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2015-02-12 11:14:31 »

It's not so easy to go changing schools.
Also, it is the legal responsibility (and requirement) that kids go to school here in the UK. If the child doesn't attend school, the parents can face prosecution.

Cas Smiley

Offline Cero
« Reply #28 - Posted 2015-02-12 11:18:04 »

disclaimer: This is german and US law.

By law no one is required to even answer to the police... Police can detain and/or arrest you if they have grounds, but furthermore: no one has to talk to police / answer to them.
Random searches ? by law you have no obligation to do as they say. Yes they may arrest you being annoying or whatever but couldnt charge you unless they make something up. Only a court summoning (in the US subpoena) is something you have to comply.

How is this relevant ? Well by law minors dont have less rights than adults. I'm pretty sure that there is no single law even talking about the relationship and duties of students vs teachers, correct me if I am wrong, but indeed that would be strange anyway.
If a student would have to comply as a teacher says...
First those terms are super vague. Whats a student, whats a teacher ? If you teach me something is that enough ? If a child gets coaching / private lessons and that teacher orders the child to do X, would it have to comply ?

Forbidding phones is pretty ridiculous to me seeing how they are a ubiquitous part of modern life. However that would fall under property law or similar, meaning, they own the school and they can say that all "guests" cannot have cellphones. Or at least not display them. Technically this would apply to parents as well and all that AND its a public building so... but now it gets complicated.

I just like to point out that minor mostly do not have less right than adults.
Everyone likes to think so, but its actually not true, by law.
Are you allowed to assault your child ? (hitting it) No, by law absolutely not. Of course kinda hard to sue someone if they dont go overboard.
If you child is like 10, has a diary, you find that diary and post stories on the internet, is that illegal ? Absolutely.
If you actually look at the laws you will find that the vast majority of laws pertaining minors are actually obligations that adults have to protect them, not laws that reduces their personal rights. With the exception of "capacity" telling how legally a person has to be X years old to be legally allowed to purchase things (which is some cases make some on those candy purchases unlawful, just saying :3)

Offline KevinWorkman

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« Reply #29 - Posted 2015-02-12 14:34:00 »

If you child is like 10, has a diary, you find that diary and post stories on the internet, is that illegal ? Absolutely.

[citation needed]

I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be. For example, parents are entitled to 100% of any revenue that a child makes until he or she turns 18. Not exactly equal rights.

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