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  Advice for Game Designers  (Read 9583 times)
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Offline ReBirth
« Reply #30 - Posted 2011-05-11 12:20:10 »

Enjoy that mentality while you can, it gets more difficult when you get a family Smiley

Mike
Ok you got me Cheesy the only way is I have get them all before that (get family). And it'll become harder.

Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #31 - Posted 2011-05-11 17:28:13 »

So I should go with a Masters in Computer Science or is it pointless and I should rather focus my energy into being an indie game developer?

You're most likely going to need the problem-solving and programming Pointing

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 356
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #32 - Posted 2011-05-11 17:29:41 »

So I should go with a Masters in Computer Science or is it pointless and I should rather focus my energy into being an indie game developer?

You're most likely going to need the problem-solving and programming Pointing
Good point Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline tberthel
« Reply #33 - Posted 2011-05-11 18:00:42 »

So I should go with a Masters in Computer Science or is it pointless and I should rather focus my energy into being an indie game developer?

You're most likely going to need the problem-solving and programming Pointing
Good point Smiley

You should probably ignore both and focus on game design and robot swarming and such.  While code will become invaluable after printers can print themselves, it will still not hold a candle to the more abstracted level of thinking.  Like how many robots does it take to screw in a light bulb.

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 356
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #34 - Posted 2011-05-11 19:05:57 »

....
Like how many robots does it take to screw in a light bulb.
It takes 3: 1 to hold the light bulb, 2 to turn the ladder Wink

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 68
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #35 - Posted 2011-05-11 19:07:33 »

I don't care, I just thought it was a cool video  Grin

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 356
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #36 - Posted 2011-05-11 19:08:30 »

I don't care, I just thought it was a cool video  Grin
Bahahaha I love how we went quite offtopic on a video about game designing Tongue

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #37 - Posted 2011-05-13 00:18:21 »

It took me 3 months for me to get a job after graduating with a bachelor's degree, #1 in my CS class, won awards, got into honor societies, had extracurriculars out the wazoo, all that crap. And I was looking in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it seems there are more tech jobs than there are people to fill them. I applied to around 100 places and only heard back from around 10, only got interviews at 3.

Ever since getting my first job, I literally have recruiters getting my phone number from some where and calling me. I have 2 or 3 emails about job opportunities a week, sometimes per day. It's sort of silly.

My point is not that I'm oh so lucky or oh so smart, my point is that the first job is by far the most difficult, and it will take a whole lot of effort and patience to get it.  But once you're in, you're in. You'll always have a friend in some company-or-other that's hiring and you'll also have recruiters trying to get you to work somewhere else. Basically companies are rarely willing to take a risk in hiring, and it's expensive to give interviews. If you think about how much engineers are paid and an entire day for an interview, you'd better be certain that candidate is pretty good or you're going to waste a lot of resources.

And when I interview people, I look for general aptitude and intelligence and team fit (i.e. not being an asshole), not their degree or level of experience, really. But to get to an interview you need a decent resume, and most jobs say "minimum bachelor's in computer science or equivalent."

In summary: the first step is difficult, but after that if you're smart and make friends it's easy as pie to find work.

I think getting a degree is a very good idea, because just one is often a requirement to even be looked at until you have had a few jobs in the industry. I also think college teaches a lot of good things that aren't easily measured. Smiley

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline tberthel
« Reply #38 - Posted 2011-05-13 07:05:44 »

It took me 3 months for me to get a job after graduating with a bachelor's degree, #1 in my CS class, won awards, got into honor societies, had extracurriculars out the wazoo, all that crap. And I was looking in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it seems there are more tech jobs than there are people to fill them. I applied to around 100 places and only heard back from around 10, only got interviews at 3.

Ever since getting my first job, I literally have recruiters getting my phone number from some where and calling me. I have 2 or 3 emails about job opportunities a week, sometimes per day. It's sort of silly.

My point is not that I'm oh so lucky or oh so smart, my point is that the first job is by far the most difficult, and it will take a whole lot of effort and patience to get it.  But once you're in, you're in. You'll always have a friend in some company-or-other that's hiring and you'll also have recruiters trying to get you to work somewhere else. Basically companies are rarely willing to take a risk in hiring, and it's expensive to give interviews. If you think about how much engineers are paid and an entire day for an interview, you'd better be certain that candidate is pretty good or you're going to waste a lot of resources.

And when I interview people, I look for general aptitude and intelligence and team fit (i.e. not being an asshole), not their degree or level of experience, really. But to get to an interview you need a decent resume, and most jobs say "minimum bachelor's in computer science or equivalent."

In summary: the first step is difficult, but after that if you're smart and make friends it's easy as pie to find work.

I think getting a degree is a very good idea, because just one is often a requirement to even be looked at until you have had a few jobs in the industry. I also think college teaches a lot of good things that aren't easily measured. Smiley

1.  Just because recruiters send you stuff and you get interviews does not mean you will get work before you run out of money.  I actually get a bunch more than 2-3 emails a week in fact it is more like 5 emails everyday.  So, attention from possible employers does not mean a job.

2.  You are actually above the norm upon graduation.  I had no doubt someone would offer you a job eventually.  I actually had my first software engineering job in 2 interviews right after graduation, but now I couldn't get a job at Walmart much less at Google as even a cashier.  I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over.

All I can say is don't quit your first job you may never get a real chance anywhere.  I didn't.  Not that is matters anymore.

Also, it doesn't matter if you have a degree if you don't need a job.  I was fooled just like many are that you need an education to make money.  In the real world it is about Fascism and stealing billions from tax payers to get ahead.  You will never make real money when working for scum that sends all of the work far away.  When your new car smell wears off they will throw you away in a second, and get another sucker.

Offline philfrei
« Reply #39 - Posted 2011-05-13 19:38:01 »

I went through a similar decision about whether to go for an advanced degree in Music or not, after getting my BA in Music from Berkeley. I kind of surveyed what was going on in various programs and was really turned off by the "academic" music scene, and decided to do my own thing, and basically supported myself via temp jobs. Now, I regret that decision, because I realize that being an Academic doesn't mean you HAVE to follow the trends. Once one pays a certain amount of dues, one can create one's own program, IF you can get a job at a University or College. That certainly has become more competitive, but I do know people that have managed to make it to that level.

Another line of thought, I recall deciding whether or not to take a special program at Stanford on their computer music. What I realized, upon going to a demo/intro, was that it would teach one how to use their cutting edge equipment. But it wasn't going to teach one how to compose, how to "think musically" and come up with ideas and organize them into pieces someone else would care anything about, and it wasn't going to guarantee future access to their exclusive equipment. So I took a pass on that.

I don't see college teaching one to "design" a game. I think it is terrific for learning how to program a game, to teach one the techniques for creating the needed data structures. But the "art" side of it? I don't know, and I don't know how that is taught, except by doing.

The ideas for game designs can come from anywhere. Maybe, in college, while taking "breadth" classes, instead of focusing exclusively on CompSci, one is exposed to something in a History class or Literature class or Anthropology class that is inspiring or triggers ideas for games. So Sociology or Poly Sci, or Organic Chemistry or who knows what! Ideas can come from anywhere. And I think it has been established that a lot of advances in this world come from "cross-fertilization".

Ideas can also come from being part of a crowd, making something that fits the esthetic or feel of a group of people. There is a fashion or style element. How do you teach that? I think it is important to think about games analytically, think about what makes them tick, what makes people want to play them, what makes some games "hits" and others near misses or flops. I think it is important to listen to one's own interests and enthusiasms, pursue and investigate, even if they seem silly or weird to other people. You have to put "yourself" into design, or the result will be shallow and derivative.

In music, one path is to figure out what attracts your ear and study it, learn from it, steal its ideas and make them part of your arsenal. So I guess the same thing can be done with games & game programming. College won't necessarily give you the time to explore and create, unless you make time, unless you have your own vision and agenda that you are trying to pursue while fulfilling the requirements of the program. Or maybe there are college programs that have the equivalent of "Creative writing" units in programming, where they give you credits and turn you loose to investigate and program things that are of interest. I haven't seen such.

No clear answer. If one is by nature creative and tends to dream stuff up, envision things that don't exist, endure failure and derision, then maybe yes, one can attempt a plan that includes going independant. There is still a lot of discipline and work and things to learn. But if one tends to stay safe with doing copycat stuff or focusing on technical mastery for its own sake, then a for-hire position, being a highly productive team member is a worthy goal.

My four cents. Consider the source, I am barely scraping by, still trying to create and make new things work at the ripe age of 54, but at least finding the process interesting and meaningful, and have the satisfaction of having made a few cool and unique things.

 

"It's after the end of the world! Don't you know that yet?"
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline pjt33
« Reply #40 - Posted 2011-05-13 19:56:10 »

I don't see college teaching one to "design" a game. I think it is terrific for learning how to program a game, to teach one the techniques for creating the needed data structures. But the "art" side of it? I don't know, and I don't know how that is taught, except by doing.
I agree that you have to design games to learn how to design games, but I can see potential value in a course which includes practical group sessions where you analyse games and debate what works well and what doesn't. My degree is in CompSci rather than anything aimed at game design, but I can draw a parallel with some of the discussions I had over lunch with colleagues at Jagex.

Quote
The ideas for game designs can come from anywhere. Maybe, in college, while taking "breadth" classes, instead of focusing exclusively on CompSci, one is exposed to something in a History class or Literature class or Anthropology class that is inspiring or triggers ideas for games. So Sociology or Poly Sci, or Organic Chemistry or who knows what!
It's worth noting that that kind of breadth in a degree course is fairly US-specific.
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #41 - Posted 2011-05-13 21:28:32 »

It took me 3 months for me to get a job after graduating with a bachelor's degree, #1 in my CS class, won awards, got into honor societies, had extracurriculars out the wazoo, all that crap. And I was looking in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it seems there are more tech jobs than there are people to fill them. I applied to around 100 places and only heard back from around 10, only got interviews at 3.

Ever since getting my first job, I literally have recruiters getting my phone number from some where and calling me. I have 2 or 3 emails about job opportunities a week, sometimes per day. It's sort of silly.

My point is not that I'm oh so lucky or oh so smart, my point is that the first job is by far the most difficult, and it will take a whole lot of effort and patience to get it.  But once you're in, you're in. You'll always have a friend in some company-or-other that's hiring and you'll also have recruiters trying to get you to work somewhere else. Basically companies are rarely willing to take a risk in hiring, and it's expensive to give interviews. If you think about how much engineers are paid and an entire day for an interview, you'd better be certain that candidate is pretty good or you're going to waste a lot of resources.

And when I interview people, I look for general aptitude and intelligence and team fit (i.e. not being an asshole), not their degree or level of experience, really. But to get to an interview you need a decent resume, and most jobs say "minimum bachelor's in computer science or equivalent."

In summary: the first step is difficult, but after that if you're smart and make friends it's easy as pie to find work.

I think getting a degree is a very good idea, because just one is often a requirement to even be looked at until you have had a few jobs in the industry. I also think college teaches a lot of good things that aren't easily measured. Smiley

1.  Just because recruiters send you stuff and you get interviews does not mean you will get work before you run out of money.  I actually get a bunch more than 2-3 emails a week in fact it is more like 5 emails everyday.  So, attention from possible employers does not mean a job.

2.  You are actually above the norm upon graduation.  I had no doubt someone would offer you a job eventually.  I actually had my first software engineering job in 2 interviews right after graduation, but now I couldn't get a job at Walmart much less at Google as even a cashier.  I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over.

All I can say is don't quit your first job you may never get a real chance anywhere.  I didn't.  Not that is matters anymore.

Also, it doesn't matter if you have a degree if you don't need a job.  I was fooled just like many are that you need an education to make money.  In the real world it is about Fascism and stealing billions from tax payers to get ahead.  You will never make real money when working for scum that sends all of the work far away.  When your new car smell wears off they will throw you away in a second, and get another sucker.

@1. Also I get job offers, but those obviously aren't from recruiters, they're from friends. Job offer means a job.
@2. By above the norm you mean it took longer than the norm? What does "I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over" even mean? I am usually very clear when I am being screwed over. And I say so, and it generally gets fixed. Or I quit and work somewhere else. No big deal. You won't get anywhere if you don't stand up in yourself, but you also can't be an asshole about it. Be clear, logical, and fair. And fairness is what you'll get in return.

I already quit my first job. I'm on #3 right now. And some day in the future I will probably leave this one too. I work in the game industry where there's a whole lot of nepotism, so maybe I'm not the norm here, but by now I know so many people at so many different companies that I can get jobs pretty much immediately upon leaving another. I got this past one 3 days after I went for it, which was 2 weeks after leaving the job I had before it. Because I did a good interview, had a good resume, and... knew people at the company. Smiley

Also, I'm not a paranoid nut job, I think that helps.

PS - if you want a computer job, your degree does matter. Or you need a lot of experience. So either do freelance work for a while to get your experience, or get a degree. You're not going to get hired without one of the two. Also, there are lots of cute girls in college, and you may even meet your wife like I did. Smiley

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline tberthel
« Reply #42 - Posted 2011-05-14 03:22:21 »

It took me 3 months for me to get a job after graduating with a bachelor's degree, #1 in my CS class, won awards, got into honor societies, had extracurriculars out the wazoo, all that crap. And I was looking in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it seems there are more tech jobs than there are people to fill them. I applied to around 100 places and only heard back from around 10, only got interviews at 3.

Ever since getting my first job, I literally have recruiters getting my phone number from some where and calling me. I have 2 or 3 emails about job opportunities a week, sometimes per day. It's sort of silly.

My point is not that I'm oh so lucky or oh so smart, my point is that the first job is by far the most difficult, and it will take a whole lot of effort and patience to get it.  But once you're in, you're in. You'll always have a friend in some company-or-other that's hiring and you'll also have recruiters trying to get you to work somewhere else. Basically companies are rarely willing to take a risk in hiring, and it's expensive to give interviews. If you think about how much engineers are paid and an entire day for an interview, you'd better be certain that candidate is pretty good or you're going to waste a lot of resources.

And when I interview people, I look for general aptitude and intelligence and team fit (i.e. not being an asshole), not their degree or level of experience, really. But to get to an interview you need a decent resume, and most jobs say "minimum bachelor's in computer science or equivalent."

In summary: the first step is difficult, but after that if you're smart and make friends it's easy as pie to find work.

I think getting a degree is a very good idea, because just one is often a requirement to even be looked at until you have had a few jobs in the industry. I also think college teaches a lot of good things that aren't easily measured. Smiley

1.  Just because recruiters send you stuff and you get interviews does not mean you will get work before you run out of money.  I actually get a bunch more than 2-3 emails a week in fact it is more like 5 emails everyday.  So, attention from possible employers does not mean a job.

2.  You are actually above the norm upon graduation.  I had no doubt someone would offer you a job eventually.  I actually had my first software engineering job in 2 interviews right after graduation, but now I couldn't get a job at Walmart much less at Google as even a cashier.  I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over.

All I can say is don't quit your first job you may never get a real chance anywhere.  I didn't.  Not that is matters anymore.

Also, it doesn't matter if you have a degree if you don't need a job.  I was fooled just like many are that you need an education to make money.  In the real world it is about Fascism and stealing billions from tax payers to get ahead.  You will never make real money when working for scum that sends all of the work far away.  When your new car smell wears off they will throw you away in a second, and get another sucker.

@1. Also I get job offers, but those obviously aren't from recruiters, they're from friends. Job offer means a job.
@2. By above the norm you mean it took longer than the norm? What does "I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over" even mean? I am usually very clear when I am being screwed over. And I say so, and it generally gets fixed. Or I quit and work somewhere else. No big deal. You won't get anywhere if you don't stand up in yourself, but you also can't be an asshole about it. Be clear, logical, and fair. And fairness is what you'll get in return.

I already quit my first job. I'm on #3 right now. And some day in the future I will probably leave this one too. I work in the game industry where there's a whole lot of nepotism, so maybe I'm not the norm here, but by now I know so many people at so many different companies that I can get jobs pretty much immediately upon leaving another. I got this past one 3 days after I went for it, which was 2 weeks after leaving the job I had before it. Because I did a good interview, had a good resume, and... knew people at the company. Smiley

Also, I'm not a paranoid nut job, I think that helps.

PS - if you want a computer job, your degree does matter. Or you need a lot of experience. So either do freelance work for a while to get your experience, or get a degree. You're not going to get hired without one of the two. Also, there are lots of cute girls in college, and you may even meet your wife like I did. Smiley

1. Networking is for Hitler, Stalin, Clinton, Bush, Obama and other Germanic tribe nut jobs.  You act as if your just another person networking your way to success like them.  People that support the Fascist, Communist, and Socialist nut jobs are the people you support by using networking to get ahead of those that don't have friends.  Good CS != Networking like a Germanic Thief

2. Being screwed by government actions not directly by employers was what I had implied.  Sorry for the confusion.  It comes in 3 pieces:  1. Redistribution by regulation: Like Affirmative Action cost me a degree from a University that had more jobs for grads. And many other regulatory Germanic like policies.  2. Redistribution by wealth transfer: House Mortgage deduction, Child Tax Credit, TSA, SS, MediCare, and thousands of other extermination programs for the Germanic like leadership. 3. Personal actions against me directly: Denied the right to bear arms, Check fraud by the ATF against me, and Illegal searches and item collection.

3. Your lucky to have found people that help you so easily.  I don't make friends because my long term unemployment from birth has made it impossible for me to relate to Fascist, Communist, and Socialist that are running the world into the toilet via social engineering by taking all my work and giving it to others.  The employers I had all had Germanic like methods of extorting money from others to stay in business instead of producing a product for a profit so they were never real jobs.

I am not paranoid.  The redistribution projects are real they are not in my imagination.  Germanic/Fascist/National Socialist philosophy is wrong and them taking everything I work for just to fund a very few.

Finally, if you have time for girlfriends, boyfriends, or friends in college then your just another lucky rich person that will get everything for free just like Obama and other Fascist friends.  Real people must get work done to survive the Fascist scum sucking assholes.

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 356
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #43 - Posted 2011-05-14 03:38:34 »

Wow tberthel, you are one angry and quite political man!

Offline tberthel
« Reply #44 - Posted 2011-05-14 03:54:35 »

Wow tberthel, you are one angry and quite political man!

In fact I hate politics.  I am not political at all.  I don't lie, cheat, or take to get more power.  The politics is what I am complaining about so you have it backwards.

Offline pitbuller
« Reply #45 - Posted 2011-05-14 08:04:22 »

tberthel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Offline Mike

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 86
Projects: 1
Exp: 6 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #46 - Posted 2011-05-14 08:12:39 »

Finally, if you have time for girlfriends, boyfriends, or friends in college then your just another lucky rich person that will get everything for free just like Obama and other Fascist friends.  Real people must get work done to survive the Fascist scum sucking assholes.

Haha, this part made it really clear that you're just typing to get a nice discussion and not what you really think. I do like your posts even if neither you nor me  agree to them ;-)

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline pjt33
« Reply #47 - Posted 2011-05-14 09:34:12 »

Why are people still feeding the troll?
Offline tberthel
« Reply #48 - Posted 2011-05-14 11:25:15 »

Finally, if you have time for girlfriends, boyfriends, or friends in college then your just another lucky rich person that will get everything for free just like Obama and other Fascist friends.  Real people must get work done to survive the Fascist scum sucking assholes.

Haha, this part made it really clear that you're just typing to get a nice discussion and not what you really think. I do like your posts even if neither you nor me  agree to them ;-)

Mike

No it is real.

Offline tberthel
« Reply #49 - Posted 2011-05-14 12:01:14 »


Are you saying that complaining about redistribution is like that of the past in Germany, or is in some way playing some kind of card?

You do realize that many Jewish, Gypsies, Impoverished, and other German citizens died long before gas chambers, death camps, and firing squads.  They did it with House Ownership deduction, destruction of property, and gun control long before it got really dirty.  Similarly, in the U.S. we have House Mortgage deduction, use of warrants to take property not related to illegal activity, and ATF in the U.S. today.

Many people die because they can't afford the new life style that the government requires for basic existence now than it did before the Fascist, Communist, and Socialist started pushing for social redistribution.  Mainly this has been accomplished by not allowing people to produce anything through regulation and fear mongering over cheap energy production.  Buying power has fallen for 39 of 40 years in the U.S., and they will get dirty eventually, but for now they just kill those that can't defend themselves and don't fit in with the redistribution programs.

So, in the U.S. we are not on the slippery slope of Fascism baiting comments with Reductio_ad_Hitlerum.  We are actually already in the slow kill phase, and have been for a while through redistribution.  From stolen homes, guns, and other property to the need for a quadruple bypass that went to pay for Acorn or other Fascist, Communist, or Socialist group program.

Offline teletubo
« League of Dukes »

JGO Ninja


Medals: 48
Projects: 4
Exp: 8 years



« Reply #50 - Posted 2011-05-14 13:41:28 »

So I should go with a Masters in Computer Science or is it pointless and I should rather focus my energy into being an indie game developer?
A masters (or even just a bachelor's) in CS/CE will almost guarentee a well-paying job after getting out, and if you find out you like that kind of stuff then more power to you.
But for the indie route, let's just say not everyone becomes a notch  Wink

I agree with that . Education is important no matter what you choose to be .
Unless you're a genius, which (no offense) I don't believe you are.

And as Eli said, the university can be a nice place to grow up. You'll meet a lot of different people with diiferent background and will learn not only the technical stuff, but you'll also learn to deal with different people, learn respect and learn to accept your failures and successes and not blaming the world for it .

In any case you can still develop your indie games while in the university , you dont need to choose just one path . And in the university you'll have far more free time than after you're graduated , as lots of folks stated here ...

Offline fletchergames

Senior Devvie





« Reply #51 - Posted 2011-05-14 14:26:50 »

About the actual topic...

I don't have computer science degree, though I do have a minor in computer science.  I didn't learn enough information to justify the vast amount of money I spent, but I acknowledge that I could have learned significantly more if I had been a better student.  However, very little of the course material was relevant to game programming.

There were high-level courses in computer graphics and networking that would have been useful, but I didn't have the requirements to take those classes.

After college, I've been trying for years to make games.  And everything I've made has been garbage.  It's gradually becoming better garbage, but I'm not on any path to ever being good.

So I didn't really benefit that much either from college or from trying to develop games at home.  There's more to becoming a game developer than just completing a few classes or making a better version of Pong at home.  I don't know what the path to being a real game developer is, but I have a feeling that I'm not on it.

I don't know if this really counts as advice or not.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #52 - Posted 2011-05-14 15:58:04 »

About the actual topic...

I don't have computer science degree, though I do have a minor in computer science.  I didn't learn enough information to justify the vast amount of money I spent, but I acknowledge that I could have learned significantly more if I had been a better student.  However, very little of the course material was relevant to game programming.

There were high-level courses in computer graphics and networking that would have been useful, but I didn't have the requirements to take those classes.

After college, I've been trying for years to make games.  And everything I've made has been garbage.  It's gradually becoming better garbage, but I'm not on any path to ever being good.

So I didn't really benefit that much either from college or from trying to develop games at home.  There's more to becoming a game developer than just completing a few classes or making a better version of Pong at home.  I don't know what the path to being a real game developer is, but I have a feeling that I'm not on it.

I don't know if this really counts as advice or not.

fletchergames,

If you have a hard time making games then you should just start with a high level tool.  Go with Unity, UDK, or Crysis SDK (when it becomes semi free) and run with that.  Those tools will give you much of the correct philosophy required to make good games and give you a nearly free 10 year head start on people like me, cas, and others that built their own tools.

Gaming Education

I took game programming 1 & 2 at UNT, and it helped many people I went to school with get work at Terminal Reality and other places.  I already knew most of what was provided and just used the time to make an existing game better.  In short I would say you just need to make games but use existing tools unless you just have the urge to lose 10 years or create a new development platform.

Offline fletchergames

Senior Devvie





« Reply #53 - Posted 2011-05-15 14:39:08 »

fletchergames,

If you have a hard time making games then you should just start with a high level tool.  Go with Unity, UDK, or Crysis SDK (when it becomes semi free) and run with that.  Those tools will give you much of the correct philosophy required to make good games and give you a nearly free 10 year head start on people like me, cas, and others that built their own tools.
That sounds like excellent advice.  I've been resisting using 3rd party tools for a long time, but I think that's the only realistic choice I have for creating games that use 21st century technology.

Right now, I'm making a Rogue-like, so the proper thing to do would be to start with an existing Rogue-like engine and modify.  However, I'm going to still finish my own engine for this game.  I've implemented essentially every feature of a Rogue-like at one time or another (with the notable exception of random map generation).  I do have the technical know-how to generate a Rogue-like - I can outdo games from 30 years ago.

The main issue I have for this particular game is that I have to actually work on it.  There's been long periods where I haven't touched it.  In the time periods where I did work on it, I spent alot of time fiddling around with graphical user interface elements and making a map editor.  Adding actual features to the game should go much more quickly.

In some sense, this is a waste of time.  The end result isn't going to be a game people will buy, but I'm content to make a Rogue-like just as a hobby.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #54 - Posted 2011-05-15 15:59:54 »

fletchergames,

If you have a hard time making games then you should just start with a high level tool.  Go with Unity, UDK, or Crysis SDK (when it becomes semi free) and run with that.  Those tools will give you much of the correct philosophy required to make good games and give you a nearly free 10 year head start on people like me, cas, and others that built their own tools.
That sounds like excellent advice.  I've been resisting using 3rd party tools for a long time, but I think that's the only realistic choice I have for creating games that use 21st century technology.

Right now, I'm making a Rogue-like, so the proper thing to do would be to start with an existing Rogue-like engine and modify.  However, I'm going to still finish my own engine for this game.  I've implemented essentially every feature of a Rogue-like at one time or another (with the notable exception of random map generation).  I do have the technical know-how to generate a Rogue-like - I can outdo games from 30 years ago.

The main issue I have for this particular game is that I have to actually work on it.  There's been long periods where I haven't touched it.  In the time periods where I did work on it, I spent alot of time fiddling around with graphical user interface elements and making a map editor.  Adding actual features to the game should go much more quickly.

In some sense, this is a waste of time.  The end result isn't going to be a game people will buy, but I'm content to make a Rogue-like just as a hobby.

How much of: http://www.orbitalcows.com/ is yours?

I think we talked about this long ago, and I think you should ignore my previous advice.  I looked at your games and I think you should do the following instead:

1. Use J2AS or use GWT for HTML5 or Flash output
2. Push your games on Flash websites with adverts

You have lots of assets being wasted that would make you plenty.  I didn't realize you had done so much.  Great work BTW.

I also think that if you wanted to share then I could port them to my AllBinary Platform for J2ME and Android, but I have not finished my Adobe Air or HTML5 output yet.

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #55 - Posted 2011-05-16 02:06:24 »

@fletchergames
did you build all games of OC without any engine? I mean, from scratch?

Offline loom_weaver

JGO Coder


Medals: 17



« Reply #56 - Posted 2011-05-16 04:17:53 »

Right now, I'm making a Rogue-like, so the proper thing to do would be to start with an existing Rogue-like engine and modify.  However, I'm going to still finish my own engine for this game.  I've implemented essentially every feature of a Rogue-like at one time or another (with the notable exception of random map generation).  I do have the technical know-how to generate a Rogue-like - I can outdo games from 30 years ago.

Cool, do you have any more information?  I'm working on a Rogue-like as well so I'm curious to find out more about what you have done and what your approaches to various aspects of the game are.
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #57 - Posted 2011-05-16 17:11:34 »

It took me 3 months for me to get a job after graduating with a bachelor's degree, #1 in my CS class, won awards, got into honor societies, had extracurriculars out the wazoo, all that crap. And I was looking in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it seems there are more tech jobs than there are people to fill them. I applied to around 100 places and only heard back from around 10, only got interviews at 3.

Ever since getting my first job, I literally have recruiters getting my phone number from some where and calling me. I have 2 or 3 emails about job opportunities a week, sometimes per day. It's sort of silly.

My point is not that I'm oh so lucky or oh so smart, my point is that the first job is by far the most difficult, and it will take a whole lot of effort and patience to get it.  But once you're in, you're in. You'll always have a friend in some company-or-other that's hiring and you'll also have recruiters trying to get you to work somewhere else. Basically companies are rarely willing to take a risk in hiring, and it's expensive to give interviews. If you think about how much engineers are paid and an entire day for an interview, you'd better be certain that candidate is pretty good or you're going to waste a lot of resources.

And when I interview people, I look for general aptitude and intelligence and team fit (i.e. not being an asshole), not their degree or level of experience, really. But to get to an interview you need a decent resume, and most jobs say "minimum bachelor's in computer science or equivalent."

In summary: the first step is difficult, but after that if you're smart and make friends it's easy as pie to find work.

I think getting a degree is a very good idea, because just one is often a requirement to even be looked at until you have had a few jobs in the industry. I also think college teaches a lot of good things that aren't easily measured. Smiley

1.  Just because recruiters send you stuff and you get interviews does not mean you will get work before you run out of money.  I actually get a bunch more than 2-3 emails a week in fact it is more like 5 emails everyday.  So, attention from possible employers does not mean a job.

2.  You are actually above the norm upon graduation.  I had no doubt someone would offer you a job eventually.  I actually had my first software engineering job in 2 interviews right after graduation, but now I couldn't get a job at Walmart much less at Google as even a cashier.  I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over.

All I can say is don't quit your first job you may never get a real chance anywhere.  I didn't.  Not that is matters anymore.

Also, it doesn't matter if you have a degree if you don't need a job.  I was fooled just like many are that you need an education to make money.  In the real world it is about Fascism and stealing billions from tax payers to get ahead.  You will never make real money when working for scum that sends all of the work far away.  When your new car smell wears off they will throw you away in a second, and get another sucker.

@1. Also I get job offers, but those obviously aren't from recruiters, they're from friends. Job offer means a job.
@2. By above the norm you mean it took longer than the norm? What does "I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over" even mean? I am usually very clear when I am being screwed over. And I say so, and it generally gets fixed. Or I quit and work somewhere else. No big deal. You won't get anywhere if you don't stand up in yourself, but you also can't be an asshole about it. Be clear, logical, and fair. And fairness is what you'll get in return.

I already quit my first job. I'm on #3 right now. And some day in the future I will probably leave this one too. I work in the game industry where there's a whole lot of nepotism, so maybe I'm not the norm here, but by now I know so many people at so many different companies that I can get jobs pretty much immediately upon leaving another. I got this past one 3 days after I went for it, which was 2 weeks after leaving the job I had before it. Because I did a good interview, had a good resume, and... knew people at the company. Smiley

Also, I'm not a paranoid nut job, I think that helps.

PS - if you want a computer job, your degree does matter. Or you need a lot of experience. So either do freelance work for a while to get your experience, or get a degree. You're not going to get hired without one of the two. Also, there are lots of cute girls in college, and you may even meet your wife like I did. Smiley

1. Networking is for Hitler, Stalin, Clinton, Bush, Obama and other Germanic tribe nut jobs.  You act as if your just another person networking your way to success like them.  People that support the Fascist, Communist, and Socialist nut jobs are the people you support by using networking to get ahead of those that don't have friends.  Good CS != Networking like a Germanic Thief

2. Being screwed by government actions not directly by employers was what I had implied.  Sorry for the confusion.  It comes in 3 pieces:  1. Redistribution by regulation: Like Affirmative Action cost me a degree from a University that had more jobs for grads. And many other regulatory Germanic like policies.  2. Redistribution by wealth transfer: House Mortgage deduction, Child Tax Credit, TSA, SS, MediCare, and thousands of other extermination programs for the Germanic like leadership. 3. Personal actions against me directly: Denied the right to bear arms, Check fraud by the ATF against me, and Illegal searches and item collection.

3. Your lucky to have found people that help you so easily.  I don't make friends because my long term unemployment from birth has made it impossible for me to relate to Fascist, Communist, and Socialist that are running the world into the toilet via social engineering by taking all my work and giving it to others.  The employers I had all had Germanic like methods of extorting money from others to stay in business instead of producing a product for a profit so they were never real jobs.

I am not paranoid.  The redistribution projects are real they are not in my imagination.  Germanic/Fascist/National Socialist philosophy is wrong and them taking everything I work for just to fund a very few.

Finally, if you have time for girlfriends, boyfriends, or friends in college then your just another lucky rich person that will get everything for free just like Obama and other Fascist friends.  Real people must get work done to survive the Fascist scum sucking assholes.

L O f**king L.

I've never been associated with Hitler before, or told that I get everything for free. A first time for everything!

PS - By networking I mean being good at my job and being a fun person to work with. Therefore, people want to work with me again! You should try it sometime.

PPS - Your games really... erm... suck for you having so much experience. Think maybe that's why you don't get hired?

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline tberthel
« Reply #58 - Posted 2011-05-16 19:14:49 »

It took me 3 months for me to get a job after graduating with a bachelor's degree, #1 in my CS class, won awards, got into honor societies, had extracurriculars out the wazoo, all that crap. And I was looking in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it seems there are more tech jobs than there are people to fill them. I applied to around 100 places and only heard back from around 10, only got interviews at 3.

Ever since getting my first job, I literally have recruiters getting my phone number from some where and calling me. I have 2 or 3 emails about job opportunities a week, sometimes per day. It's sort of silly.

My point is not that I'm oh so lucky or oh so smart, my point is that the first job is by far the most difficult, and it will take a whole lot of effort and patience to get it.  But once you're in, you're in. You'll always have a friend in some company-or-other that's hiring and you'll also have recruiters trying to get you to work somewhere else. Basically companies are rarely willing to take a risk in hiring, and it's expensive to give interviews. If you think about how much engineers are paid and an entire day for an interview, you'd better be certain that candidate is pretty good or you're going to waste a lot of resources.

And when I interview people, I look for general aptitude and intelligence and team fit (i.e. not being an asshole), not their degree or level of experience, really. But to get to an interview you need a decent resume, and most jobs say "minimum bachelor's in computer science or equivalent."

In summary: the first step is difficult, but after that if you're smart and make friends it's easy as pie to find work.

I think getting a degree is a very good idea, because just one is often a requirement to even be looked at until you have had a few jobs in the industry. I also think college teaches a lot of good things that aren't easily measured. Smiley

1.  Just because recruiters send you stuff and you get interviews does not mean you will get work before you run out of money.  I actually get a bunch more than 2-3 emails a week in fact it is more like 5 emails everyday.  So, attention from possible employers does not mean a job.

2.  You are actually above the norm upon graduation.  I had no doubt someone would offer you a job eventually.  I actually had my first software engineering job in 2 interviews right after graduation, but now I couldn't get a job at Walmart much less at Google as even a cashier.  I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over.

All I can say is don't quit your first job you may never get a real chance anywhere.  I didn't.  Not that is matters anymore.

Also, it doesn't matter if you have a degree if you don't need a job.  I was fooled just like many are that you need an education to make money.  In the real world it is about Fascism and stealing billions from tax payers to get ahead.  You will never make real money when working for scum that sends all of the work far away.  When your new car smell wears off they will throw you away in a second, and get another sucker.

@1. Also I get job offers, but those obviously aren't from recruiters, they're from friends. Job offer means a job.
@2. By above the norm you mean it took longer than the norm? What does "I don't think you understand what can happen if people know your being screwed over" even mean? I am usually very clear when I am being screwed over. And I say so, and it generally gets fixed. Or I quit and work somewhere else. No big deal. You won't get anywhere if you don't stand up in yourself, but you also can't be an asshole about it. Be clear, logical, and fair. And fairness is what you'll get in return.

I already quit my first job. I'm on #3 right now. And some day in the future I will probably leave this one too. I work in the game industry where there's a whole lot of nepotism, so maybe I'm not the norm here, but by now I know so many people at so many different companies that I can get jobs pretty much immediately upon leaving another. I got this past one 3 days after I went for it, which was 2 weeks after leaving the job I had before it. Because I did a good interview, had a good resume, and... knew people at the company. Smiley

Also, I'm not a paranoid nut job, I think that helps.

PS - if you want a computer job, your degree does matter. Or you need a lot of experience. So either do freelance work for a while to get your experience, or get a degree. You're not going to get hired without one of the two. Also, there are lots of cute girls in college, and you may even meet your wife like I did. Smiley

1. Networking is for Hitler, Stalin, Clinton, Bush, Obama and other Germanic tribe nut jobs.  You act as if your just another person networking your way to success like them.  People that support the Fascist, Communist, and Socialist nut jobs are the people you support by using networking to get ahead of those that don't have friends.  Good CS != Networking like a Germanic Thief

2. Being screwed by government actions not directly by employers was what I had implied.  Sorry for the confusion.  It comes in 3 pieces:  1. Redistribution by regulation: Like Affirmative Action cost me a degree from a University that had more jobs for grads. And many other regulatory Germanic like policies.  2. Redistribution by wealth transfer: House Mortgage deduction, Child Tax Credit, TSA, SS, MediCare, and thousands of other extermination programs for the Germanic like leadership. 3. Personal actions against me directly: Denied the right to bear arms, Check fraud by the ATF against me, and Illegal searches and item collection.

3. Your lucky to have found people that help you so easily.  I don't make friends because my long term unemployment from birth has made it impossible for me to relate to Fascist, Communist, and Socialist that are running the world into the toilet via social engineering by taking all my work and giving it to others.  The employers I had all had Germanic like methods of extorting money from others to stay in business instead of producing a product for a profit so they were never real jobs.

I am not paranoid.  The redistribution projects are real they are not in my imagination.  Germanic/Fascist/National Socialist philosophy is wrong and them taking everything I work for just to fund a very few.

Finally, if you have time for girlfriends, boyfriends, or friends in college then your just another lucky rich person that will get everything for free just like Obama and other Fascist friends.  Real people must get work done to survive the Fascist scum sucking assholes.

L O f**king L.

I've never been associated with Hitler before, or told that I get everything for free. A first time for everything!

PS - By networking I mean being good at my job and being a fun person to work with. Therefore, people want to work with me again! You should try it sometime.

PPS - Your games really... erm... suck for you having so much experience. Think maybe that's why you don't get hired?

My Games Are Not The Issue

I would rather play my games than many games that make many millions like Zynga games.  So, they don't suck as much as many.  In fact name one game that has the level of action as my games do on Android that run smoother after a few minutes of play.  You won't find it.  I get 60 fps on 30 dollar hardware for J2ME just try my MiniSpaceWar w/Vectors on BlackBerry AppWorld.  I have several million plays of my games year in year out.  I have multi-player and 3d games.  My games can run on over 3 billion J2ME, Android, and J2SE devices.  Can Zynga or others do that?

Not that my art and sounds couldn't improve a bunch, but that is not related to my software development.

My Games only represent a fraction of my work:

My games are about 35k of code each except for my RTS, Multi-Player, and 3D games.  I have >1,000,000 lines of other code, scripts, and configuration files.  About 35% in Freeblisket/Weblisket and 45% in my game development kit so my games are just the tip of my robot army ice berg.

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #59 - Posted 2011-05-16 19:49:14 »

Zynga makes several million dollars per day on their games. And despite their CEO being a bit unethical and them having ethics issues in the past, they are a very admirable company. They started from scratch and turned into a company that likely makes more than EA and other studios. And throughout all that they've kept their independence and their vision. Although I don't like their games, I'd rather be Zynga. Smiley

But I forgot, they're "fascists."

See my work:
OTC Software
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