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  post your favorite scripting language  (Read 6210 times)
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Offline SpiritWolf

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Posted 2005-06-09 17:56:14 »

Hello!

Please post your choice of scripting language! I've been learning my first agile programming language groovy.
Offline woogley
« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-06-09 18:23:49 »

Well JavaScript WOULD be my favorite, but so many browsers have so many differences in DOM implmentation.. which pretty much breaks JavaScript in many ways. Other than that it has pretty simple syntax rules..

My actual favorite scripting language (not programming language) would have to be PHP. It has extremely easy syntax and an enormous library of functions to use. If you don't believe me.. check this out

Other decent languages I like are ActionScript (for Macromedia Flash) and BeanShell
Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-06-09 20:01:13 »

Java. It's in memory compilable to bytecode and then infusable to rest of the code. So why use something like scripting, when Java would work flawlessly? If you would like to kick out some of braces, write your variation, then parse it into legal version.

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Offline Alan_W

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Java tames rock!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-06-09 20:11:52 »

BeanShell (as mentioned by Woogley above) integrates well with Java applications.  Scripting is useful for things like User Macros (just think msoffice) as well as being useful for describing entity behaviours in games.  This latter use allows content to be divorced from code which "is a good thing".

I use Javascript a fair bit too.

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline woogley
« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-06-10 01:26:14 »

So why use something like scripting, when Java would work flawlessly?

This post isnt about Java (which is a programming language, not a scripting language).

The reason why you use scripting languages is because (surprise!) Java can't do everything. Java cannot modify pages on-the-fly in a web browser like JavaScript, for example

Another use for scripting (like BeanShell) is adding interactivity without recompliling Java bytecode. THe bytecode simply runs it. BeanShell can be VERY useful (especially in RPGs when you need scripting for things like characters moving around in a world.. dialogue, and all that.) Hardcoding that into bytecode isnt a good idea.. this way you can build a map editor which allows user scripting (and still, no compiling) Wink
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-06-10 05:15:06 »


This post isnt about Java (which is a programming language, not a scripting language).

The reason why you use scripting languages is because (surprise!) Java can't do everything. Java cannot modify pages on-the-fly in a web browser like JavaScript, for example

Another use for scripting (like BeanShell) is adding interactivity without recompliling Java bytecode. THe bytecode simply runs it. BeanShell can be VERY useful (especially in RPGs when you need scripting for things like characters moving around in a world.. dialogue, and all that.) Hardcoding that into bytecode isnt a good idea.. this way you can build a map editor which allows user scripting (and still, no compiling) Wink

You're just plain wrong woogley; true you have to use javascript for DHTML  in a web page because that's how browsers are implemented but the java runtime can load text files of java source code and execute them at runtime performing the exact same function as beanshell, groovy, jython, rhino, whatever.   I pestered these guys for about 6 months on this topic and finally someone pointed me to an article that explained it, but sadly I've lost the link.....
Offline SpiritWolf

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-06-10 09:56:47 »

That doesn't seem to make sense that the java runtime can also run uncompiled java files. Is this really possible? If it is, what is the purpose of beanshell?
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
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« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-06-10 10:19:34 »

SpiritWolf,

Beanshell uses a dynamic class loading/compiling method that allows to provide exactly that, the ability to run even snippets of java source without percievably compiling them. The downside is the performance, which is not suitable for anything real time (by this I mean AI routines etc..). However, it is a powerful tool for scripting events and actions within game systems.

Personally, I like groovy for scripting. However, I a bigger fan of determining your operating context and writing an object hiearchy to support interacting with it. Through trial and error I've discovered that integrating scripting languages just doesn't work for *me*. At the end of the day, I don't want my desigers scripting things, I want them using tidy GUIs to define how they'd like things to work. If they're going to use GUIs, then the format underneath doesn't matter as much.

Kev

Offline SpiritWolf

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-06-10 11:26:37 »

SpiritWolf,

Personally, I like groovy for scripting. However, I a bigger fan of determining your operating context and writing an object hiearchy to support interacting with it. Through trial and error I've discovered that integrating scripting languages just doesn't work for *me*. At the end of the day, I don't want my desigers scripting things, I want them using tidy GUIs to define how they'd like things to work. If they're going to use GUIs, then the format underneath doesn't matter as much.

Kev

Do you mean defining a scripted event with a GUI?
Is using a GUI to define the scripted events as flexible as a full-fledged scripting language?
Offline aNt

Senior Member




AFK


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-06-10 11:35:00 »

none there all crap
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-06-10 11:53:04 »

Quote
Do you mean defining a scripted event with a GUI?
Is using a GUI to define the scripted events as flexible as a full-fledged scripting language?

Yes, it would limit flexibility. In most things I've worked on you're letting your scripting system out to some pretty inexperience or non-tech savy people. In these cases a limit of flexibility is a good thing, it prevents the scripter breaking the system over and over. IMHO, java is just too complicated and open ended to be a really useful scripting tool for non-programmer builders.

Kev

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-06-10 12:04:54 »

Yes, it would limit flexibility. In most things I've worked on you're letting your scripting system out to some pretty inexperience or non-tech savy people. In these cases a limit of flexibility is a good thing, it prevents the scripter breaking the system over and over. IMHO, java is just too complicated and open ended to be a really useful scripting tool for non-programmer builders.

A little story about RuneScape...

It was considered far too dangerous to allow large numbers of people access to modify anything and everything in the codebase to add new features and quests - but most quests, to be interesting, needed previously-un-thought-of new features.

So, they created a proprietary scripting language very similar to ARM assembler (a simple to use assembly language, similar to bytecode but simpler) and allowed *anyone* to use it.

At runtime, that language is interpreted by the JVM, and the interpreter ensures certain things like preventing infinite loops and other ruinous things that non-programmers can easily end up doing.

...back to Beanshell et al:

Exactly the same thing is theoretically possible using anything like Beanshell (bsh); I believe the main reason it's not done at present with bsh is simply that the implementation classes for bsh are far too complex, spaghetti-code (I've hacked on quite a few of them, and it's incredibly confusing for classes that are inherently quite simple). It's worth noting that this barrier to usage is widely aired and there's considerable pressure and apparently a lot of intent to fix it ASAP...so worth checking the situation again in 6 months time, and you might find some very good stuff avaialbe for use.

Ditto the performance issues: bsh *can be* fast, *should become* very fast (but won't be until the next version appears, using the bytecode compilers as long requested and promised), but has some deep bug which makes it very very slow in several situations.  On average, it's rather like javascript or visual-basic: for some things, it's very fast (you won't find it's a noticeable bottleneck, your own java code and hardware interfacing will be much slower), but for others it's godawful.

Personally...I can't wait another 6-24 months for bsh to come up to where it could be, so I can't/don't use it much at the moment (I use it in particular places where I know it will be OK, but much less widely than I would like).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-06-10 13:41:23 »

I suppose it all depends on what you want to use it for.

I personally like to use java as a scripting language (and use beanshell or janino) because it doesn't limit me in any way. I don't think java is more complicated to use for scripting than say, VBscript or javascript, and when you use Janino you get excellent performance. I've seen so many cases where I needed to use some scripting language which was nice for simple things, but when things got complicated it quickly became horrible.
For server side web scripting, I like JSP. It's clean, easy and powerful. I kind of dislike PHP for that (although it has some nice features) because I've seen too many compatibility issues.
A language that got me into programming after a few years without doing any coding at all, was UnrealScript. Very much like java (it even compiles to it's own version of platform independent bytecode), but with some added language features for game scripting (I especially liked the concept of 'states' for games). OTOH, it lacks a few nice things compared to java.

A long time ago, there was a discussion here about the difference between scripting languages and 'real' programming languages. I suppose in many cases the boundaries are not clear, and it depends on what you use the language for. Like if you use java for scripting, than in that case java is a scripting language.

Offline woogley
« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-06-10 15:19:56 »

...but the java runtime can load text files of java source code and execute them at runtime performing the exact same function as beanshell, groovy, jython, rhino, whatever.

chill, dude! you don't have to say people are 100% wrong because you personally dont like scripting languages. You're right about Java loading dynamic classes like BeanShell, but why reinvent the wheel? BeanShell has done this in a very stable manner. That's like saying using LWJGL is 100% wrong because you *could* use Java3D!

The fact is there are alot of ways to do alot of things in the programming world. There are languages out there that can perform better than Java at certain tasks. Like PHP for instance. PHP doesnt need to mess with Servlets and all of that, it just lets you build dynamic pages without worrying about object types and such. PHP also doesn't need JDBC drivers to load just to load a simple SQL table. So.. I'm not saying Java can't do it (because it can), but it IS easier to do it in PHP.
Offline SpiritWolf

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-06-10 16:32:51 »

So java can be used as a scripting language because it loads classes dynamically? Could I use the reflection apis to call methods and such at the speed of java instead of the speed of a embedded scripting language? If that's the case I would have compile the code, but that shouldn't be too hard unless you edit things a lot in a game. A game like a rpg or something where your changing the npcs behavior alot..

btw kevglass, didn't you mention that scripting with a gui is easy to use for developers inexperienced in programming, and makes sure that they don't mess up the game rules. Isn't there a middle ground here? Why not code some library that encapsulates the game rules and maybe use the facade pattern to wrap the game entities and other data that they might try to access? Just a thought..
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-06-10 17:38:10 »

No, I said that building a context (an API to which your container game conforms) in which you use Java to "script" the specifics of your game then use dynamic class loading to support, which is what you've said above.

The GUI comment was with repsect to non-techy users who are affeared of lanaguages of any sort. In that case it makes little difference what scripting you use underneath since you're going to be translating anyway.

Kev

Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-06-11 03:12:16 »

...but the java runtime can load text files of java source code and execute them at runtime performing the exact same function as beanshell, groovy, jython, rhino, whatever.

chill, dude!

It's quiet warm here actually...

Quote
you don't have to say people are 100% wrong because you personally dont like scripting languages.

That's a groundless statement.  Have you clicked on the jsgc link in my sig?

Quote
You're right about Java loading dynamic classes like BeanShell, but why reinvent the wheel?

No, Beanshell loads dynamic classes like Java, so yes, why reinvent the wheel?

I was merely posting to the implied tone of your post that java wasn't suitable for 'scripting' whatever 'scripting' actually means.

In you original post you also said;

Quote
Java can't do everything.

Which in fact it can.   Both in a Turing complete sense and in a 'leap tall buildings in a single bound'.   Tongue

Nothing personal, I'm bored and just having fun  Kiss .
Offline woogley
« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-06-11 03:29:42 »

I was merely posting to the implied tone of your post that java wasn't suitable for 'scripting' whatever 'scripting' actually means.

eh that is a good point.. whatever "scripting" is. java is, in a sense, a scripting language. Every scripting language has an interpreter.. in this case the VM. Shocked

Java is pretty cripple without the VM.. and the VM is pretty cripple without the machine code thats behind everything! confusion! Shocked
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #18 - Posted 2005-06-11 06:25:20 »

>Have you clicked on the jsgc link in my sig?

Have you? (hint: the links are broken, you need a "http://" infront)

I use beanshell and jython. Beanshell is really really slow (like 400 [fourhundret!] times slower than java) and jython is ugly, but only like 40 times slower. Those figures are pretty rough, but it doesn't matter much at that degree of slowness.

Either way it's not usable for inner loop stuff, but it's of course perfeclty fine for prototyping those bits. Like... write it with beanshell, test, change, test, change etc and once you're satisfied rename, compile, take care about some bits here and there, compile again and you're done. That final step takes usually about 1 minute. So, yea it's really worth it.

Everyone should really give it a try (at least once). It's fun Wink

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline sma

Junior Member





« Reply #19 - Posted 2005-06-11 14:40:51 »

Quote
Please post your choice of scripting language! I've been learning my first agile programming language Groovy.

IMHO Groovy is a bad mixture of random concepts, lacking the elegance of other languages. So I won't recommend that language at all. You didn't say whether the scripting language shall run inside a VM or not. I assume the latter.

Ruby is nice and clean scripting language (mainly OO, but procedural and functional also works) from which Groovy brorrowed most concepts. Ruby is a mixture of concepts from Smalltalk and Perl, adding some nice features from Python and Sather. Although Python seems to be more popular than Ruby, I think, Ruby has better concepts. But perhaps it's only because I see my beloved Smalltalk behind Ruby and feel more comfortable with that language. There's an attempt to create a Ruby running on Java (actually it was started by me a couple of years ago) but even if I really respect what the JRuby people do, I don't think nowadays that recreating a 90%+ compatible Ruby clone is worth the effort.

Lua is tiny, embeddable, Pascal like functional scripting language which is actually quite popular among game developers. Probably because it's easy to embed and considered quite fast - being a bytecode interpreter. And probably because other developers used it... World of Warcraft's UI is scripted with Lua (I got a lua error message when I tried to start the game after my 10 day guest pass went off - I'm now playing Guild Wars instead Smiley  I once created a Lua parser for Java but because I don't like the Lua function library that much, I abandoned that project.

IMHO, every developer should know Scheme and it can be a decent scripting language, too. With JScheme and SISC there are two Scheme implementation for Java. Actually, it for ignore syntax, any language can be mapped on Scheme and vice versa.

If you like rather exotic languages, I can recommend Io and Goo. Io is a prototype based language (like JavaScript, both inherit the idea from Self, a Smalltalk dialect) with a very clean syntax. Goo is also a prototype based language, this time featuring Dylan-style dynamic multimethods and therefore influenced by the Lisp school of thought.

Probably the most underrated scripting language is JavaScript. I kind of like it, but I really hate the fact that 1 + "2" is the string "12" while 1 - "2" is the number -1. Don't overload "+" for Strings if you at the same time automatically convert types. That is crap and makes me really hate that language. Otherwise, it has prototypes and closures, two features I really like.

A nice JVM-based language I'd like to mention is Pnuts. However, it's only interesting if you're looking for a scripting language which is similar to Java and which runs on Java. According to benchmarks on the Pnuts web site, Pnuts is the fastest scripting languages for the JVM.

While I understand the idea that it is useful to use a Java language compatible scripting language like BeanShell or Janino, I consider this kind of boring and - more important - you can't really workaround the Java syntax limitations. To be able to gain something, you should also consider radically different languages.

Factor (from the guy who created JEdit) is such a language. It's a postfix language modelled after Forth and Joy, having also a lot of Lisp influence (as every good language should have IMHO). I can barely read Forth and are lost with APL so I've a hard time to understand factor. A little bit more ordinary syntax would be okay for me Smiley

Ah yes, and REBOL (from the guy who built the original Amiga) might be worth a look. It's a pure postfix language, modelled after Logo which has some nice concepts. Like with most languages I found interesting to study, I created a tiny Java parser for to play around and then abandoned the project. I like the (old, because derived from Lisp in 1960) idea that program and data are expressed in the same way which makes meta-programming quite easy.

[Sorry for the long rant ;-)]

Stefan

.: Truth Until Paradox!
Offline SpiritWolf

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-06-11 16:09:29 »

sma thanks for the very detailed discription of some popular scripting languages! very useful!  Smiley
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #21 - Posted 2005-06-11 21:15:14 »

[...]
While I understand the idea that it is useful to use a Java language compatible scripting language like BeanShell or Janino, I consider this kind of boring and - more important - you can't really workaround the Java syntax limitations. To be able to gain something, you should also consider radically different languages.
[...]

So, you gain "nothing" with beanshell and the like? Smiley

The only thing I want is a higher turn over rate. "Zero" delay and no need to restart your app or to reload any resources. That's the biggest advantage. A 100% java-ish language can be also turned into usual classes at the end, which is imo a much bigger advantage than a less restricted syntax. (I personally don't mind a bit more typing work... it only accounts for like 0.05% of a project's time.)

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline SpiritWolf

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2005-06-11 23:36:19 »


The only thing I want is a higher turn over rate. "Zero" delay and no need to restart your app or to reload any resources. That's the biggest advantage. A 100% java-ish language can be also turned into usual classes at the end, which is imo a much bigger advantage than a less restricted syntax. (I personally don't mind a bit more typing work... it only accounts for like 0.05% of a project's time.)

In that case maybe pnuts would also be a good choice. Like sma said it's benchmarked as the fastest scripting language for the JVM..
Offline sma

Junior Member





« Reply #23 - Posted 2005-06-12 10:36:43 »

So, you gain "nothing" with beanshell and the like? Smiley

The only thing I want is a higher turn over rate. "Zero" delay and no need to restart your app or to reload any resources.

Well, if that is all you're interested in, you of course gain something. However IMHO that's enough. And it's not about typing, it's about abstraction. In Java (and Java like scripting languages) you can't create your own constrol structures. You can't do meta-programming. You can't really use other programming paradigms but procedural (with a little bit of OO).

Let's say you want to implement an AI. Wouldn't it be cool if you could express the game rules really as rules as with typical expert systems?  Wouldn't it be cool if the AI could learn something by constructing new rule objects and adding them to its code base?

What's the right abstraction to express things like these statements: Weapons wielded by a hero damage monsters. A sword does only 1 point of damage against a skeleton. If an armor has a ward against axes, no axe attack will harm the wearer.  "if" statements spreaded all over the code are are IMHO not the answer. Multimethods or prolog-like rule systems could help, I think.

Stefan

.: Truth Until Paradox!
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #24 - Posted 2005-06-12 11:17:32 »

Well, if that is all you're interested in, you of course gain something. However IMHO that's enough. And it's not about typing, it's about abstraction. In Java (and Java like scripting languages) you can't create your own constrol structures. You can't do meta-programming. You can't really use other programming paradigms but procedural (with a little bit of OO).

Let's say you want to implement an AI. Wouldn't it be cool if you could express the game rules really as rules as with typical expert systems?  Wouldn't it be cool if the AI could learn something by constructing new rule objects and adding them to its code base?

What's the right abstraction to express things like these statements: Weapons wielded by a hero damage monsters. A sword does only 1 point of damage against a skeleton. If an armor has a ward against axes, no axe attack will harm the wearer.  "if" statements spreaded all over the code are are IMHO not the answer. Multimethods or prolog-like rule systems could help, I think.


Rubbish - been there, done that - in pure java! This is typical development: you write the libraries you need for the job you are about to do; if you instead simply went through life assuming the best way to write your code was always just to use the basic language syntax you'd never be making much use of e.g. OOP.

You have a point, but you're not saying it well; java is very like C++ - it's a systems language where you can do pretty much anything you want, allowing you to easily recreate most languages inside it. C++ makes recreation of other languages easier and with less overhead (although java does cut out a lot of the excess overhead at runtime, of course, sometimes IIRC more than C++ is able to cut out by clever compile time optimizations) - but at the cost that it has fewer language invariants and has outdated concepts hardwired, which make development slow.

...so java inherits C++'s great problem: it takes time to write those libraries. You cannot build an argument on java having the "wrong" abstraction, rather you should be compairing the amount of time it takes to get java to work in the abstraction you wanted (this is just implementation time).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


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http://t-machine.org


« Reply #25 - Posted 2005-06-12 12:58:41 »

eh that is a good point.. whatever "scripting" is. java is, in a sense, a scripting language. Every scripting language has an interpreter..

"A loose term for any language that is weakly typed or untyped and has little or no provision for complex data structures. A program in a scripting language (a "script") is often interpreted ." c.f. http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?Ousterhout's+dichotomy

Your statement about interpreters is specious: *every* langauge is interpreted (think about it...).

Quote
Java is pretty cripple without the VM.. and the VM is pretty cripple without the machine code thats behind everything! confusion! Shocked

That's like saying "C++ is crippled without a computer". Um, yes. C++ doesn't *exist* without a computer; likewise Java.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #26 - Posted 2005-06-12 12:59:17 »

I use beanshell and jython. Beanshell is really really slow (like 400 [fourhundret!] times slower than java)

As I mentioned, bsh is actually quite fast (a LOT faster than that - typical for me is 5 to 10 times slower), but there's a bug which if you trigger it somewhere in your script it will result in a massive massive slowdown (somewhere around 100-500 times IIRC). So, I would guess you're hitting that bug regularly Sad ?

I've written entire apps that haven't triggered it, and others that triggered it straight away. I don't know what it is - perhaps a screwed-up class-load call or something? Perhaps a reflection call that iterates along a massive chain of classes before finding what it's looking for?

In some ways, that unpredictability is worse than being slow-and-predictable Sad

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline woogley
« Reply #27 - Posted 2005-06-12 15:14:20 »

That's like saying "C++ is crippled without a computer". Um, yes. C++ doesn't *exist* without a computer; likewise Java.

I know, that's why I said it. Wink Some people only think of scripting languages as interpreted languages, when in fact every language is intepreted (so we just proved the same point Tongue)
Offline blahblahblahh

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Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #28 - Posted 2005-06-12 17:02:19 »

That's like saying "C++ is crippled without a computer". Um, yes. C++ doesn't *exist* without a computer; likewise Java.

I know, that's why I said it. Wink Some people only think of scripting languages as interpreted languages, when in fact every language is intepreted (so we just proved the same point Tongue)

You seemed to be saying that since java has an "interpreter" (the JVM) it is a scripting language - which is not true. It is neither a scripting language (in any sense of the word) nor does it even have an interpreter, as such - the JVM *is* java.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline woogley
« Reply #29 - Posted 2005-06-12 20:31:44 »

You seemed to be saying that since java has an "interpreter" (the JVM) it is a scripting language - which is not true. It is neither a scripting language (in any sense of the word) nor does it even have an interpreter, as such - the JVM *is* java.

I didnt mean to make it seem like I said java was a scripting language, becayse that's not what I was gong for Wink.I was mentioning how other people classify Java as a scripting language (not to mention the n00bs that utterly confuse Java with JavaScript)
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