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  GameDev.net contest  (Read 8886 times)
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Offline aldacron

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Medals: 9
Exp: 16 years


Java games rock!


« Posted 2005-06-06 13:59:01 »

GameDev.net has announced a new contest. The latest version of Java will be availalble on the judges' machines, according to the discussion thread.
Offline Alan_W

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Medals: 8
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Java tames rock!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-06-06 18:49:54 »

Tempting: Pirates, Ninjas, Robots, Zombies.

*Thinks* Pirates & Ninja's would work in a Japanese setting.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline Markus_Persson

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Medals: 16
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Mojang Specifications


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-06-06 20:50:47 »

Zombie pirates worked very well in Monkey Island 2. =D

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Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-06-06 20:51:35 »

There was a robot ninja in Metal Gear Solid as well. =D

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Offline nonnus29

Senior Duke




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-06-06 23:00:45 »

June to the end of October; sheesh, that's no challenge....   Roll Eyes

They've had these contests before but I've never seen any results for them.  But you'd think there'd be some good entries.
Offline Orangy Tang

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Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-06-06 23:58:14 »

The previous ones I've seen have been heavy on cheesy particle effects and code ripped direct from the NeHe demos. Sad I'd be interested, but a theme like that is much  more art heavy than programming heavy.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-06-07 07:37:15 »

I had a look at GameDev's previous contests.  Most of them are demos rather than games (i.e. eye candy).  Looking at the 4 element III contest (Earth, Fire, Wind, Water), the top ten entries were batting above my current skill level in special effects.  However to make a game requires a wider range of skills so there's hope.  I also looked at the bottom range of the entries.  No risk of coming bottom me-thinks.

June till end October is about 5 months, a bit on the long side really.  I really prefer shorter and more focused. Arghh! look at the time. must go...

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 191
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-06-07 08:48:13 »

I must be going blind, do they actually mention a JVM being installed somewhere?

Kev

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Medals: 823
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-06-07 08:58:28 »

Quote from: kevglass
I must be going blind, do they actually mention a JVM being installed somewhere?

Quote from: aldacron
...according to the discussion thread.

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=324010

Quote
Can we use Java, and if so what version will these machines have ?

...You can use Java, and it would be the latest version.

Wasn't that easy to find, but it's there Grin

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Offline CaptainJester

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Medals: 12
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Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-06-07 11:01:36 »

I have seen several staff from there who bash Java, so I don't know if Java would get a fair shake.

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Offline aldacron

Senior Duke


Medals: 9
Exp: 16 years


Java games rock!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-06-07 12:27:51 »

I have seen several staff from there who bash Java, so I don't know if Java would get a fair shake.

I've seen one staff member make a negative comment about Java, and that was from a programming perspective - not a user perspective. And there was nothing malicious (i.e. no bashing) behind it.  I know you got a bit irate in that thread, so just to be fair - I disagree with you. The staff doesn't care one way or the other what language you use. As long as it runs on the judges' machines without difficulties, you're in. With that in mind, I'd stay away from WebStart. After seeing how many people over at IndeGamers had problems with the WebStart demos Cas posted (which no one here had), I wouldn't have much confidence in the contest  judges getting them to run.
Offline CaptainJester

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Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-06-07 13:17:09 »

I've seen one staff member make a negative comment about Java, and that was from a programming perspective - not a user perspective. And there was nothing malicious (i.e. no bashing) behind it.  I know you got a bit irate in that thread, so just to be fair - I disagree with you. The staff doesn't care one way or the other what language you use. As long as it runs on the judges' machines without difficulties, you're in. With that in mind, I'd stay away from WebStart. After seeing how many people over at IndeGamers had problems with the WebStart demos Cas posted (which no one here had), I wouldn't have much confidence in the contest  judges getting them to run.
I was not irate about the negative comment.  I was irate over a staff trolling in the Java forums.  I don't care if he thinks he earned the right or not and whether he is staff or not.  If the staff doesn't observe their own policies on trolling, other people won't .  We already get enough trolls in the Java forum without the staff contributing.

Also Oluseyi always makes it known when the subject comes up how "inferior" Java is.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-06-07 13:45:41 »

* blahblahblahh mostly stopped reading GD.net aeons ago because of poor moderation and stupid bugs in their proprietary system

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

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Medals: 16
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-06-07 14:37:40 »

Thanks for sharing, blahblahblah, I was just wondering if you read GD.net or not.
fwiw, I don't read it either, but I find this competition interesting and think it was nice of aldacron to post about it here so I could learn about it. =)

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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-06-07 15:58:10 »

Thanks for sharing, blahblahblah, I was just wondering if you read GD.net or not.
fwiw, I don't read it either, but I find this competition interesting and think it was nice of aldacron to post about it here so I could learn about it. =)

Uh...it was just a tongue-in-cheek commment (although it's true - life is just less annoying if you mostly avoid reading the crap you often see on GD Smiley). FYI I'm hoping to enter the comp!

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 16
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-06-07 17:21:36 »

I'm thinking of joining with just a silly small flash game. it won't stand a chance of winning, but it'd be cool to participate. =)

Play Minecraft!
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-06-07 17:45:47 »

...As long as it runs on the judges' machines without difficulties, you're in. With that in mind, I'd stay away from WebStart. After seeing how many people over at IndeGamers had problems with the WebStart demos Cas posted (which no one here had), I wouldn't have much confidence in the contest  judges getting them to run.

While there *was* a quote on the GameDev forums saying the Judges' computers would have Java, I kinda wonder how firm that is.  I have sometimes posted java elsewhere & peeps had difficulty running it.   An Applet in <object> tags should be a reasonable bet, but that means no OpenGL, so only a 2D Java game would really be competitive.  So it's either risk webstart or maybe *cough* C++ *cough*.

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 823
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-06-07 18:02:50 »

Just embed a JRE in your game. They'll never know.

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Offline nonnus29

Senior Duke




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #18 - Posted 2005-06-08 03:18:51 »

I'm going to code a gameboy (4 color original)  game using the gameboy z80 port of the lcc compiler and submit it in a web page using the Javaboy gameboy emulating applet --> Got to make things interesting....   Kiss
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #19 - Posted 2005-06-08 07:00:24 »

Whether to go 2D or 3D, that is the question. Thoughts:-
- 2D Java Applet Platformer (relies on <object> to fetch JVM if required)
- 2D Flash Game (My Flash skills are rudimentary though)
- 3D Java Application + Embedded JRE + LWJGL
- 3D C++ Application

The top two entries in the last 4 Element contest were 3D, but on the other hand that means lots of modelling.  Would my usual low polygon count stuff cut it? Still look at Tribal Trouble, thats fairly low poly and pretty neat and was embedded JRE + LWJGL I think.

Now gameplay...What are the defining qualities of the potential elements
- Pirates: Ships, cannons, swordplay
- Ninjas: lots of different swordplay moves, high jumps
- Robots: Lasers, spaceships
- Zombies: slow lumbering, hand-hand weapons, respawn, disease

I fancy a medieval japan setting (sorry robots).  2D or 3D, 2D or 3D...

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline aldacron

Senior Duke


Medals: 9
Exp: 16 years


Java games rock!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-06-08 07:26:04 »

There's no reason to embed the JRE. I would suggest that you don't. particularly since there was a bit in the discussion thread about file sizes.. They will have the latest JRE, so don't worry about that. If you need to pass any args to the VM just provide a batch file to launch the game. I mentioned what I did about WebStart because it doesn't work for everyone (for whatever reason).
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 823
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #21 - Posted 2005-06-08 07:52:53 »

I think that if you make such a game, you don't want only the judge to be able to play your game. He might have the JRE, but what about the other players that might want to give your game a try? They won't even bother if they have to download the JRE themselves.

Let's face it: all professional (looking) java games I encountered are distributed with an embedded JRE.

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Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 16
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #22 - Posted 2005-06-08 08:17:07 »

What games would that be?

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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 823
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #23 - Posted 2005-06-08 08:33:25 »

Oops, I forgot WurmOnline that uses WebStart! Kiss

Anyway, I was talking about games like:
Alien Flux
Super Dudester (?)
Tribal Trouble

But I'd agree my scope is limited.

I think that those who are in the situation of trying to sell their game (like Cas) have spend so much effort in solving the distribution issue, really know what's best here. Not that I say we should follow their choices no matter what,  but then I see how much trouble it is to convince even my friends to download the latest JRE and how they fear system-meltdowns... the average gamer is even harder to convince.

I think WurmOnline might be the perfect exception in this case, as the gameplay requires so much dedication, it will mainly appeal to those who won't hestitate to download and install a JRE themselves.

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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #24 - Posted 2005-06-08 09:12:45 »

I cry troll. As just mentioned elsewhere, it's reasonable to guesstimate that most people have webstart already.

Anyway, I was talking about games like:
Alien Flux
Super Dudester (?)
Tribal Trouble

Riiiight...2 by the same author, written as "small cheap downloadable games"? So, basically, you're saying that one game (TT) plus a couple of games designed to be ultra minimal effort to get and run, and by the same author, happen to provide JRE's.

Of course, even the games listed above have been distributed with no JRE (off the top of my head last time I looked AF was webstart only, but I can't keep up with how often Cas changes his distros and versions Tongue)

Quote
I think that those who are in the situation of trying to sell their game (like Cas) have spend so much effort in solving the distribution issue, really know what's best here. Not that I say we should follow their choices no matter what,  but then I see how much trouble it is to convince even my friends to download the latest JRE and how they fear system-meltdowns... the average gamer is even harder to convince.

I have experienced the same "I don't want to install java, it crashes my comptuer and it slows the rest of windows down" (i.e. complete and utter bullsh*t) - but what it reallly comes down to is very simple: show them some great looking games, make it easy (one click automatic download of the JRE if you're using webstart - visit JGF with no java installed and see what happens), and they'll shut up and do it.

Oh, and don't forget that all Mac users are forced to have the latest java all the time anyway. And IIRC most (just) PC's come with it pre-installed. And the average gamer buys a new PC every 18 months...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 16
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #25 - Posted 2005-06-08 09:32:55 »

What blahblahblah said. :-)

He stole my point after my excellent set-up. Wink


Embedding java is like embedding direct x; don't do it.
Include the java installation on the CD and install it automagically when the game is being installed.
Or, if you're going with online distribution, provide a link to install java to prevent the users from having to download the extra baggage of an embedded jre for every java game they want to play.

Play Minecraft!
Offline kevglass

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Medals: 191
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #26 - Posted 2005-06-08 09:33:39 »

It is fair to say that distributing small/casual games does not suit webstart (or vice vesa depending on your perspective). At this point a JRE does need to be embedded, but at 20MB ish its just way to big for these games anyway...

Kev

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 16
Projects: 19


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« Reply #27 - Posted 2005-06-08 09:52:32 »

I strongly disagree.

The NVidia graphics drivers are 20 mb
Acrobat reader is 27 mb
Windows XP service pack 2 is 270 mb

The multi language version of the J2SE 1.5.0_03 jre is 15 mb

If yours is the only java game that the users will ever play, embedding the jre might be helpful, but if it isn't, your users either already have the jre installed and will have to download another jre to play your game, or the players will have to download another jre for the next game they play.

Play Minecraft!
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 823
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #28 - Posted 2005-06-08 10:21:20 »

I cry troll. As just mentioned elsewhere, it's reasonable to guesstimate that most people have webstart already.

Elsewhere? Right. Impressive trustworthy reference.

To stick to the topic:
Ofcourse it's best-design to let your users download java, but what if they don't want to? You lose that market-share. They want convenient installers.

When it's about making money, you have to please your customers, not the techies.

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Offline princec

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Medals: 409
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #29 - Posted 2005-06-08 11:03:00 »

FWIW, I know no-one here is going to change their minds about embedding the JRE, but basically if you don't do it, expect your game to mostly not work. End of story. This from actual stats, rather than hearsay.

As for Webstart - it works OK on Windows, it's a bit scary on OSX, and on Linux it mostly doesn't work. Again, this information brought to you from actual logged statistics, not hearsay.

As for embedding, well, hm, I suggest you take a good long hard look at Molebox. Molebox is just so damned good I was wondering about becoming a reseller for it but I've not got the time to deal with it.

Finally - I might enter the competition with Ultratron.. er... and change the robot voices to say stuff like "SHIV3R M3 T1MBERS" and "4V4ST M4T3Y" etc. Hahaha.

Cas Smiley

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