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  Dungeon4k  (Read 6941 times)
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Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


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« Posted 2005-01-29 21:10:41 »

Well, the SonicRacer4k thing mutated into a voxel cave engine that got stuck at 3KB sans gameplay, and I forgot to save the sourecode for just the racer, so I started over with something new.

My main goals where to both make something that looks good, and to make something that's actually PLAYABLE. This is supposed to be a GAME competition after all, not just a fancy technology competition.

Screenshots:

   

Webpage: (with jnlp, instructions, and more screenshots)

http://www.mojang.com/j4k/dungeon4k/

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Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


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pixels! :x


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-01-29 21:17:32 »

Oooooooh shiny Shocked

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Offline kevglass

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-01-29 21:56:42 »

Whoa! Really Nice!

Can you say winner Smiley

Kev

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Offline erikd

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Maximumisness


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-01-29 22:05:31 »

Very cool!
Dungeon Master in 4k  Smiley

Offline luisoft

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-01-29 22:46:23 »

Very amasing  Grin I agree with Kev, I think that we already have a winner. Are you planning to release the source code?
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-01-30 02:12:51 »

Ooh, I can actually play this one....

Yes very nice, and well the source code be release?
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


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« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-01-30 04:15:47 »

I wasn't expecting to win, but I was hoping that my Robotron 4096 would at least have a fighting chance! Thanks alot Markus. :-/ ;-)

Actually, I'm quite impressed. You did a good job. Particularly impressive is the apparent lack of prerendered pixmaps. Would I be correct if I assumed that the textures are generated from a random noise generator plus a few line drawing algorithms? Also, if I'm not mistaken, there's no 3D math being done here. Rather the walls are linearly scaled to match their precise 2D distance from the player.

The addition of lighting is particularly nice. Is that done with a palette, or do you modify the individual pixels? Also, is the map autogenerated, or is it actually stored somewhere?

Anyway, a few comments:

1. You might want to change the name in the JNLP file to "Dungeon 4K" instead of "SonicRacer4K".

2. How about an executable manifest for the download version? You seem to have the space.

3. I'm on my Mac right now. When it goes into full screen, only a small portion of the screen is used. Is this correct?

4. How does the Pull spell work? When I try to pull one of the spheres, it seems to just stay where it is.

In any case, very nice job! It should fare well in the competition! :-)

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Offline mlk

Junior Member




Muppet!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-01-30 09:02:40 »

Wooo. pwetty. Grin

Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-01-30 10:19:39 »

Whee! =D
I'm glad you like it. I almost went nuts finishing it last night. I was at 3.8kb with no actual gameplay yet, and a few strange bugs. (You could sidestep through doors!)


jbanes:

0. All the graphics (except the key, which is a hack) are procedural. So is the map. It initially had a hand-made 16x16 map that was a bit more fun to play, but it just felt too small.

1. Hah, oops. Thanks, I fixed it. =)

2. The jar is 4096 bytes at the moment.. I'll try.

3. No, it's supposed to run 320x240 pixels fullscreen. Mh.

4. Stand in front of the sphere you want to pull, then back up one step and press p. It costs 10 energy to cast that spell, though.


As for the sourcecode, I'll post that once it's done. Hopefully it could inspire someone to make a proper dungeon master clone applet. Wink

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Offline princec

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-01-30 18:24:03 »

Blimey, I just don't know how people do it :/

Cas Smiley

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Offline Markus_Persson

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Medals: 14
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Mojang Specifications


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-01-30 19:00:34 »

I can only speak for myself, but it's a lot of bad code and angst. =/

You should make a 4k alien flux. =D

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-01-30 19:15:32 »

Quote

I was at 3.8kb with no actual gameplay yet, and a few strange bugs.


IMHO, for experienced java devs this is what's really good about the 4k contest: getting good graphics, etc, and *then* making sure there's good gameplay in there too. A lot harder than just doing 4k graphics demos...

Quote

As for the sourcecode, I'll post that once it's done. Hopefully it could inspire someone to make a proper dungeon master clone applet. Wink


IIRC there is a complete port of the original Dungeon Master (the last version released on PC) to java, and it's already open source.

IIRC the code is also pretty horrible Smiley and no-one's updated it for ages.

Yep: here it is:

http://www.cs.pitt.edu/~alandale/dmjava/index.html

I played it quite a bit, but to be honest it's quite a dull game by today's standards; unlike some other oldies, it has dated particularly poorly. Probably mainly because 3D graphics in particular moved ahead light years, and we're now spoilt by the interactivity of MMORPGs...


malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-01-30 19:19:56 »

PS: I wrote a real-time raytraced DM clone some years back with free movement, and some funky stuff like slightly exaggerated perspective (so that walls have a slight curve to them, which makes them look more realistic, but is a PITA to do if you're using traditional triangle rendering) and funkier lighting (because it's easy to do once you're already raytracing).

If someone (I'm guessing Markus, like me, has nowhere near enough spare time Smiley given his other projects) wants to start a "modernised" DM clone suggest doing raytracing for it to give it a unique new feel...it's really immersive having realistic lighting. Although I never got further than trivial AD&D combat with boxes (didn't get as far as adding sprites for monsters Wink) and only had it in black and white, you could get very far these days using pure procedural textures and lighting, doing all rendering in software (and without those boring triangle renderers Grin)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline ap_kelly

Junior Member




Java rocks!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-01-30 20:41:08 »

An online multiplayer version of Dungeon Master would be pretty cool, perhaps I should make a Project Proposal and see if anyone else is interested in helping out.

Andy.

Offline jbanes

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-01-30 21:33:52 »

Quote
If someone (I'm guessing Markus, like me, has nowhere near enough spare time Smiley given his other projects) wants to start a "modernised" DM clone suggest doing raytracing for it to give it a unique new feel...it's really immersive having realistic lighting. Although I never got further than trivial AD&D combat with boxes (didn't get as far as adding sprites for monsters Wink) and only had it in black and white, you could get very far these days using pure procedural textures and lighting, doing all rendering in software (and without those boring triangle renderers Grin)


You know, for something like Dungeon Master, Perlin Style Procedural Textures are really sufficient. Adding actual raytracing would be an unnecessary overkill. i.e. Since you're stuck to a limited number of moves and directions to face, the 3D coordinates become stupidly simple to compute. Once you have those coordinates, you just plug them into the procedural texture generator and out pops a perspective texture. Raytracing is far more useful for complex surfaces with surface coordinates that are difficult to predict. :-)

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-01-30 22:56:41 »

Quote

You know, for something like Dungeon Master, Perlin Style Procedural Textures are really sufficient. Adding actual raytracing would be an unnecessary overkill. i.e. Since you're stuck to a limited number of moves and directions to face, the 3D coordinates become stupidly simple to compute.


Ah. I wasn't clear enough: My clone had full 360 degress movement, just like Doom. If you're not worrying about 4k limits Wink there's really no reason to go all EotB these days Wink.

Ultima Underworlds is a basic example of how to make all the gameplay and UI work effectively, although obviously it's quite easy to do better these days, when you can laugh in the face of "optimization" (UU was happily doing quake graphics and richer gameplay on hardware 1/2 the speed of what Quake required as a minimum to run; PS: reminds me of the Carmack thread; carmack == great programmer? My arse. Go play UU; came out 2 years before even Doom1).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline jbanes

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Projects: 1


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« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-01-31 00:06:23 »

Quote
Ah. I wasn't clear enough: My clone had full 360 degress movement, just like Doom. If you're not worrying about 4k limits Wink there's really no reason to go all EotB these days Wink.


Ah, I see. Neat! So were you actually doing Ray Tracing, or were you using an advanced Ray Caster? I really can't see a Ray Tracer being efficient enough without some SERIOUS optimizations. Not that it isn't possible, just a bit tricky.  ;-)

Quote
Ultima Underworlds is a basic example of how to make all the gameplay and UI work effectively, although obviously it's quite easy to do better these days, when you can laugh in the face of "optimization" (UU was happily doing quake graphics and richer gameplay on hardware 1/2 the speed of what Quake required as a minimum to run; PS: reminds me of the Carmack thread; carmack == great programmer? My arse. Go play UU; came out 2 years before even Doom1).


Indeed. In many ways I think Chris Roberts and the rest of the Origin team were the original masters of PC Game Programming. The only reason why Ultima didn't get its due was because it was an RPG. And RPGs of the time tended to appeal to only a small subset of Players. The titles that got away from that (e.g. Wing Commander) showed extreme success and popularity. Now if Origin had only known how to make money off of that popularity...

An interesting factoid is that Ultima Underworld was produced by Looking Glass Studios, the same people who produced such cool titles as Flight Unlimited, Terra Nova, and System Shock. They really had a history of producing innovative gameplay technologies. Sadly, they were only slightly better than Origin on capitalizing on those technologies. Sad

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Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-01-31 05:43:46 »

The problem with the java dungeon master code and pretty much all other dungeon master clones out there is that they all try too hard.
Cool 3d graphics does not make a game easier to play, and there's absolutely no need to add 360 degrees movement to a tile based game unless you're making a wolfenstein clone.

It's like seeing an opengl version of excite bike.. it just feels wrong.


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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2005-01-31 06:09:11 »

Um, IIRC it was, technically, rayCASTing, since it didn't do each pixel, it did each vertical column of pixels using one cast, and then algorithmically (ignoring perspective now) worked out what to paint inside the column.

It was full of *cheap tricks* because performance did matter, a bit, on java 1.2, so I'm glad the source is nowhere publically visible (I've lost it). The code probably looked horrible.

Still, it was easy to do, and it was really nice wandering around with decent lighting and curving walls.

</threadjack>

PS: don't knock 360 movement in an RPG untl you've tried it; I mentoined it precisely because it's a lot nicer than I would have tghought until I actually had an example to fiddle with.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #19 - Posted 2005-01-31 06:29:57 »

I'm not. I'm knocking 3d movement in dungeon master clones.
And, yes, I've tried it.
They even had the nerve to SELL some games like that. (case in point, Lands of Lore 3)

Sure, Ultima Underworld was a better game than, say, Eye of the Beholder 3, but that wasn't because of the 3d engine. The highly underrated Dungeon Master 2 was way better than Ultima Underworld.
This is all, of course, imho.


[edit:]
360 movement in an rpg is fine for games that aren't trying to be dungeon master, such as neverwinter nights, wurm online and fable. But just slapping a 3d engine on DM is annoying and wrong.

Imho. Wink

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Offline Malohkan

Senior Member




while (true) System.out.println("WOO!!!!");


« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-02-01 16:44:50 »

Hmm it looks pretty, but I can't figure out what's going on...  I think I'd prefer A and D to turn and Q and E to strafe also Smiley

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #21 - Posted 2005-02-01 17:57:04 »

Quote
I'm not.


BTW: that was intended as a rhetorical comment rather than an accusation Smiley.

I was only suggesting it as a nice way to "evolve" the DM game, making use of the fact that a lot of extra techniques are both available and *trivial* in programmer time these days which could make the new game a bit more interesting...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #22 - Posted 2005-02-01 20:14:55 »

Quote
Hmm it looks pretty, but I can't figure out what's going on...  I think I'd prefer A and D to turn and Q and E to strafe also Smiley


It uses the original DM controls. =)
(well, mapped to the left side of the kb as well for comfort)


blahblahblahh:
I'm just saying that with 360 motion and nice graphics, you might as well make a morrowind instead of a dungeon master.
Or, you know, a wurm.

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Offline Vorax

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System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #23 - Posted 2005-02-02 22:03:15 »

Quote
(UU was happily doing quake graphics and richer gameplay on hardware 1/2 the speed of what Quake required as a minimum to run; PS: reminds me of the Carmack thread; carmack == great programmer? My arse. Go play UU; came out 2 years before even Doom1).


UU was developed by an established company as part of an existing franchise, Doom developed by 1 programmer and 2 others and they ran on equivelant HW.  Doom was also a much more advanced engine (in terms of graphics).

Though, Carmack was just a kid at the time anyways when he started working on the engines for Wolf and Doom, 18, so he could only set the standard, not redefine the entire genre...he did that later at 23 Wink

Wow...come to think of it Carmack really is amazing! Cheesy

Good point!

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