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  Down with J3D, Software rendering rules!  (Read 5858 times)
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Offline EgonOlsen
« Reply #30 - Posted 2003-04-24 21:19:07 »

Quote

For Java 2 users, check out these demos:

http://www.sumea.com/www/goodies.html
...then have a look at the 3D demos (the apartment demo for example), fire up the IE with a MSVM (yes, these demos do run with 1.1) and experience twice the performance (at least...75 compared to 32 on my machine). Like the applet game that started this discussion, the sumea 3D engine is a nice example of a software renderer that cripples under 1.4...what the hell are they doing?

Offline William

Junior Duke




No Exit


« Reply #31 - Posted 2003-04-24 22:33:49 »

Quote
...then have a look at the 3D demos (the apartment demo for example), fire up the IE with a MSVM (yes, these demos do run with 1.1) and experience twice the performance

I believe this symptom was analyzed in an earlier thread (was it for erikd's emulator?). Then the problem was that the programmer had optimized his code for the MSVM by inlining just about everything (since the MSVM can't perform the same kind of inlining as Hotspot), ending up with 1500+ line methods. Since Hotspot is engineered to support object-oriented design with many methods that can be individually profiled, compiled and inlined, the ugly MSVM-optimized version of the code did not perform very well on Sun's JVM.

The programmer refactored his code and got a much more readable program that performed a lot better with Sun's VM. Maybe the Sumea engine also consists of similar overly-large methods.
Offline darcone

Junior Duke




Size matters


« Reply #32 - Posted 2003-04-25 03:59:38 »

Quote
Well, no offense but 70fps for 160 textured quads is not damn fast, it's rather damn slow. Maybe you try it with VSync disabled. 70 and 35fps sound very much like a VSync limit to me.


First of all, Vsync yes Smiley And the reason for those quads to slow down it all so much is because they are all high-res textures with alpha blending.
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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #33 - Posted 2003-04-25 05:52:58 »

Quote
I believe this symptom was analyzed in an earlier thread (was it for erikd's emulator?).


Ssshht! don't mention that to everyone Grin

There's some things that I learned during that excercise:
- Don't assume anything or make premature conclusions
- Don't write particulary for one VM by practicing bad programming habits (like manual inlining).

*Maybe* the 3d demo's suffer from the same problem, but since we haven't seen the source, we don't know so we can't tell.
The end of my excercise had the emulator running fine on the Sun 1.4 VM with better code, but still generally slower than on the MS VM (ranging from significantly slower till a little bit faster, depending on the emulation driver being used).
For these kind of things, MS VM seems generally faster than Sun still. I can't explain why, but most applets simply prove that. This does not mean the Sun VM is generally slower than the MS VM, but for these kind of applet it seems true.


Read the discussion here, but don't tell anyone I started that topic:  Wink
http://www.java-gaming.org/discus/messages/27/1531.html?1029399057
http://www.java-gaming.org/discus/messages/27/1546.html?1029399057

As a side note, I'm still waiting for a 1.4 VM for windows coming from IBM ... (for games it seems faster than Sun VM and faster than MS VM. My emulator runs best on IBM 1.3 JRE).

Quote
For the software-rendering aficionados out there --

http://www.komplex.org/java.html

These guys were the best a few years back, but their demos were written for 1.1, and barely run on todays VMs..  

For Java 2 users, check out these demos:

http://www.sumea.com/www/goodies.html


I tested some applets from both links on Sun 1.4.1_01 and MS VM and I could hardly see the difference to be honest, although the MS VM seems a *little bit* more smooth. I also did some profiling on the Sun JVM which shows that it doesn't suffer from the problem I had in the past (The Sun JVM not compiling because of manual inlining).

Erik

Offline EgonOlsen
« Reply #34 - Posted 2003-04-25 12:24:33 »

Quote
I tested some applets from both links on Sun 1.4.1_01 and MS VM and I could hardly see the difference to be honest, although the MS VM seems a *little bit* more smooth.
Try the apartment applet (it has a framecounter)...like i mentioned above: 2 times faster on MSVM on my machine.

Link: http://www.sumea.com/www/apartment/index.html

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #35 - Posted 2003-04-26 13:44:42 »

On my work-PC (P3-1Ghz running win2k) I got the following numbers:
MS VM : 9-18fps
Sun 1.4.1_01 : 6-15fps

On my home PC (Athlon XP 2200+ running winXP) running 1.4.1_01 it ran like a pig. Absolutely terrible.  Varying from 1 - 8 fps on such a machine is just embarrasing. I couldn't switch back to the MS VM, the option is not there somehow so I don't know if it's any good on that one. Huh

MS is faster indeed (although not nearly twice as fast on my work machine).
Although I appreciate the effort of a software renderer, it's still so terribly slow on any VM that I can't think of any use for it.

Offline EgonOlsen
« Reply #36 - Posted 2003-04-26 14:03:05 »

Quote
Although I appreciate the effort of a software renderer, it's still so terribly slow on any VM that I can't think of any use for it.
Trying to discuss the uselessness of software rendering these days is like trying to convince cas that threads are a good thing... Grin ...JK...
jPCT's software renderer can render a simple indoor scene with some models and animations at around 25fps in 640*480 on an Athlon XP 2100+...i wouldn't call this terrible slow and it is for sure fast enough for a lot of applications. Can't speak for sumea though... Wink

Edit: Your Athlon's results for the sumea demo sound strange. I had it running on the Athlon 2100 mentioned above some month ago and while it wasn't blazing fast on SUN's VM, it was acceptable.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #37 - Posted 2003-04-26 14:12:45 »

After rebooting, it ran better (20-32fps).  :-/

Quote
around 25fps in 640*480 on an Athlon XP 2100+...i wouldn't call this terrible slow and it is for sure fast enough for a lot of applications

Okay that's even pretty damn fast... for a java software renderer.  Smiley

I suppose software renderers do have its use, only not for me.

Offline funkmasterjones

Senior Newbie




sory fo the bed speiling


« Reply #38 - Posted 2003-04-26 20:04:43 »

i got 20-45 fps on AMD1800 256 and g4ti4200

thats one of the nicest software rendered pieces of java i've ever seen (that runs over 5fps)

they even made the sinks reflective!
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