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  Sim Server Press is great...  but wrong.  (Read 11292 times)
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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Posted 2004-03-30 19:13:24 »

Hey Guys,

I wasnt sure where to post this. I don't want to cross post so I think I'll post here and then point to it from networking and on-line games.

If some of you are reading the press coming out of GDC there isa lot of press around our new Sim Server Technology.   Abotu half of it totally misses the point and the rest of it is woefully incomplete.  This is my baby, the thing I've been saying I couldn't talk about so I'll try to clear some of it up now.  There will be a whitepaper up here as soon as  it passes leagal (grr) but here is the jist:

The Sun Sim Server technology is an execution environment for the server side of online games.  It has the following porperties:

(1) Massively horizontally scalable. This means, among other things,  the need for regions and shards and such are gone.  (More on that further down.)

(2) Fault Tolerant.  The same mechanism that makes it scalable means any processor can handle any user at any time. If the user disconnects from their current processor (eg server crash) they just reconnect to another processor and go rigth on playing with little to no noticable lapse  in game play. (How little depends mostly  onyour games latency handling to cover the reconnect time.)

(3) Orthogonally persistant.  It uses what sim programmers call a "real object' paradigm.  An object ocne created esists, and exists in only oen state, until destroyed.  Your world is buitl of Sim obecjst thus the entire game-world is persistant and can change, evolve, take damage, etc.  Referential integrity is 100% gauranteed (no dupe bugs) and you can cut power on EVERY machine in the back end simultaneously and when you power back up the system coems back online witha  state thats within a few moments of when it all went down.

(4) It has a pluggable communciation layer that abstracts the method used to communicate to the user from the rest of the system. This allows PCs, who might be using Gamespy GT2 transport, and MIDP1.0 cell phones for instance (who use HTTP) to connect into the same game system and inter-operate.

(5) The system load balances across all available equipment at all times (no wasted CPU in back-up servers sitting ideal) and in fact allows multiple games to be installed into the same backend and will load balance across ALL of them.  This potentially allows low-usage games to say up indefinitely and remain profitable as long as there are enough of them to pay for the total capacity of your single back end.

Okay in a nutshell thats what it is and what it does. For the "hows", the whitepaper is coming soon...

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline bmyers

Junior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-03-30 20:53:07 »

Awesome!  Can I download an eval version?  Wink

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-03-30 21:06:48 »

he he he

You aren't the first to ask that.

So let me talk a bit about its state.

The Sim Server exists today as a Sun Technology. A technology is something we are actively developing and talking about but for which there is not a product plan in place yet.
On the engineering side we have what I would consider an "alpha" or engineering prototype.  It works,  it performs okay, but there are many fatures I wish to add and it hasn't had even a  first performance tuning pass yet.

A few things have to happen to move it forward. The first is that Sun management wants feedback from the industry that this is a wanted piece of technology.  This is because, even though I came from the online game development world, Sun never trusts its own people on this sort of thing (after all we Do have some bias) and wants outside confirmation.  We did a lot of generating that feedback at CGDC.

The second is that we are currently lining up a  couple of pilot projects.  These will be hand in hand development efforts with one or more big publishers on big MMOLG projects.  The reason we are going with big guys is, frankly, Sun being a big compnay just knows better how to talk to big companies.  While I came from the garage, and love that part of the industry, Sun management really dosn't understand it very well.

The reason for the pilots is very simple. Having come out of the game developmetn world I would *not* release a piece of middleware that had not been through the fires of real game development. AT likes to say (and I like to quote) that game development is the Space Program of software engineering. Its needs are intense and not totally predictable, its deadlines critical, and failure is disasterous (it kills companies.)

Once this system has proved itself as the back end for a real game THEN I'd feel comfortable putting it in a box and selling it.

One last thing that will happen at some point, in re evaluation/development.   The currest system is designed for a multi-mahcine back-end. It is however highly modular.  By repalcing the third tier (the data layer) I can create a stack that may not be fully fault tolerant and is restricted to one server but can be used as a develo and test environment for developers.  Its on my list of things to do...

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-03-31 01:14:03 »

sounds similar to a replicated, clustered, ejb solution using 3 architectural tiers ( tier 1 session facade,  tier 2 entity objects, and  tier3 database).

it is great to see sun flirting with this problem area.  
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-03-31 02:09:58 »

In theoreticla architecture yes, its is  3 tier system

Communication  ("edge" in enterprise terms)
Stateless Logic ("business logic" in enterprise terms)
Objectstore ("data" or "database" in enterprise terms.)

In implementation though its vastly different from something like a J2EE stack having been rethought from the ground up to meet the demands of near real-time simualtions (eg on-line games.)

Im hoping to have that whitepaper available soon...


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 152
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-03-31 03:47:32 »

Isn't this GrexEngine in another guise? Or rather, doesn't this promise very similar things?

Kev

Offline vrm

Junior Member




where I should sign ?


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-03-31 03:54:50 »

looks similar to blah^3 thingy, something like J2EE for games.

I'm not fan of database backend (I prefer to keep 4GB of data in mem) it will be possible ?
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-03-31 11:55:53 »

yep, it looks similar in function to grex.  is sun planning on publishing the interface and system semantics to encourage the development of the server side sim framework marketplace?

sun could effectively leverage its expertise in creating the j2ee marketplace, with the games framework industry.  this would be a great way to create a healthy, competitive ecosystem that drives down costs and increases overal productivity of java game developers.  


Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-03-31 12:25:50 »

Quote
yep, it looks similar in function to grex.  is sun planning on publishing the interface and system semantics to encourage the development of the server side sim framework marketplace?


We first tried to talk to Sun in winter 2002 about just such an effort; we were prepared to throw a lot into the ring. We were repeatedly told we'd have to sign their NDA before they could talk to us. We couldn't get a copy of that NDA in 12 months of trying. I've asked many times about such collaboration, and generally got the cold shoulder. We've had no feedback from the GTG on why this has happened other than statements about their need to compete with us.

Quote

this would be a great way to create a healthy, competitive ecosystem that drives down costs and increases overal productivity of java game developers.  


I don't know about you, but I don't see any sign of a lack of competition in this arena. I know that Chris said their solution is unique, but that isn't true.

In terms of lowering costs, there are 2 major open-source projects, one which has been going for 7 years with over 120 contributors. There are countless others, but mostly those are complete rubbish. If you want free or cheap stuff, it's there.

The vast majority of games developers have much higher reliability, support, and performance requirements; that stuff is economically impossible to provide cheaply - and, if you speak to the purchasers (e.g. finance directors of games companies) you'll find they generally prefer to pay more, since it increases the chance that their supplier won't go out of business, and leave them with an unsupported non-upgradeable system (we've spoken to two companies who had this happen to them with MMOG systems! This can mean having to cancel the entire game; the studios generally don't have the skills to build their own MMOG system even if they had the source to someone else's).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-03-31 13:37:04 »

Quote

I don't know about you, but I don't see any sign of a lack of competition in this arena. I know that Chris said their solution is unique, but that isn't true.

In terms of lowering costs, there are 2 major open-source projects, one which has been going for 7 years with over 120 contributors. There are countless others, but mostly those are complete rubbish. If you want free or cheap stuff, it's there..


commoditization of services can only happen when interface and semantics are well defined.  all that i am saying is that the developer would be better served (by having to learn less APIs, be able to migrate from free->middle of the road->high end service or framework based products.   the market is then able to set the price of a product based upon verifiable differentiators (apples to apples benchmarks).

i'm sorry to hear sun being so picky with their strategy, but i'm sure at this point they are really just sticking their feet in the water before they even think of taking on the very expensive investment involved in a standardization process.  but, who knows...  i personally like to give sun the benefit of the doubt that they are benevolent corporate organism.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline princec

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Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-03-31 15:29:47 »

Quote
...sun the benefit of the doubt that they are benevolent corporate organism

Scene: jolly giant whistles tunelessley as he traipses through the forest to show his fantastic new cakes at the pixies' faire. Underfoot, countless pixies are crushed to death by his clumsy feet as he blithely blunders along.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-03-31 18:06:17 »

Okay, so let me set a few thinsg celar.

This is a project of mine that I started when I was at Total Entertainment Network 5 years ago and has been in off-tiem development for 5 years straight, full time at sun for about 9 months.

I gave it to Sun in return for which they gave me the resources to complete it.

The concept of gane backend middleware is hardly original to anyone.  Anyone with any eye towards what has been happening shoudl have been able to see it coming 5 years ago, as i did.   (See ZONA, Butterfly, etc)   IMO this system has some unique proeprties and, as my third actual attempt at such a system, is probably as close or closer to 'right' then any of the other systems out there.

If you want an analogy this oen is a whole lot closer...

Scene:  Mouse coems along and pulls thorn out of giants foot, in return for which gaint protects mouse.

I really can't be responsible for anyone elses "might have been."  I've worked damn hard on mine to make it an "is."  If someone else pushes and pulls and takes 5 years of their lives trying to make their dream real, doign whatever is necssary (including working on only vaugely related thinsg for a big company that can eventually help them reach their dream)  I hope they are as successful.


Okay, now second points. There is a reason I said its only like an enterporize system in theory.  It has soem huge differences:

(1) The entire vertical stack is integrated in one process for speed.

(2) The database layer is a memory resident database with secondary storage as a second asynchronous teir.  This gives me phenomenal access times.  (And is why I chose TimesTen as a base technology.)  I can do an SQl query on priamry key, get the object back and deserialize it all tenths of ms.  (Thats right .2 MS or so.)

DON'T confuse it with J2EE.  It is worlds apart.  Its just the the fudnemental 3 tier architecture is a good way to structure scalable fault tolerant systems.  The logical seperation is valuable and used but the implementation is abotu as far from any J2EE app server as you can get.




Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-03-31 18:35:56 »

cool, thanks for sharing the history of your endevour.

sounds much more like a distributed object cache with guaranteed transactional semantics.

i can see where you could make some optimizations based on the fact that MMOGs have different types of persistent information:  character based (temporal), location based (spatial), common meta data (semantic networks).  

does your framework actually handle running the server side logic?  

if so, does it provide quality of service guarantees over the  computational resources consumed by the autonomous entities of the simulation?  

(i'm sorry if my question is way off base, i've never written a mmog, just simple client-side sims and a few 2d games.)



Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-03-31 20:25:11 »

Quote
cool, thanks for sharing the history of your endevour.

sounds much more like a distributed object cache with guaranteed transactional semantics.


Thats a great one sentance description of what we call the "objectstore", the data tier Smiley

Quote

i can see where you could make some optimizations based on the fact that MMOGs have different types of persistent information:  character based (temporal), location based (spatial), common meta data (semantic networks).  


For now, in an attempt to keep the programming interface as simple as possible and avoid thinsg like the nigthmare XMl file that goes along wtih EJBs, we are only using heuristics that can be devined from run time characteristics.  In particular we are currently using an object migration scheme were objects remain close to their last user.  This is based o nan observation that the vast majority of time in an online game what you are dealing with is "your stuff" and only ocassionally do you actually have a direct interraction with someone else.

But this is just the first cut.  Determining what heuristics we end up with long term is part of what those pilot projects are all about.  The design approach I'm taking comes out of my other prrformance work and can be described as "keep the design simple and clean and then tune the heck out of it"  as opposed to trying to predict the need for fancy and complex mechanisms.

Quote

does your framework actually handle running the server side logic?  

if so, does it provide quality of service guarantees over the  computational resources consumed by the autonomous entities of the simulation?  



In theory yes. In practice thats an area that I'm still doing development on.  Today each stack has a list of the apps installed on it so not every Sim will consume resources on every stack.  Withina stack a given task is time limited on how much time it can consume and all tasks are labled with the simulation that spawned them.  At the moment the stack logic kernel has a simple single task queue but we have a number of imrpovements in mind including prioritized queues, seperate queues per simulation and such.

I'm letting the needs of the projects drive which features get implemented first as explained above.

Quote

(i'm sorry if my question is way off base, i've never written a mmog, just simple client-side sims and a few 2d games.)


Nope *excellent* questions.  Much better then any I've gotten from the press so far Smiley




[/quote]

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-04-01 00:03:07 »

Quote
At the moment the stack logic kernel has a simple single task queue but we have a number of imrpovements in mind including prioritized queues, seperate queues per simulation and such.


would this be able to correctly handle thousands of discrete automota that have widely varying time requirements to complete processing of  their "calculate next action" function,  such that in the context of "lack of acting fast is detrimental", the  faster processing "calculate next action" algorithms prevail over the slower ones?
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-04-01 03:25:32 »

<rant>
Somehow its works out like other Sun-things in the past. There are some excellent, bigger and smaller efforts out there, driven by some non-Sun-people with a lot of energy. Think of GL4Java, LWJGL, JXInput, grexengine, HeadQuarter, ...

Now it seems that one day there is a (highly talented) guy working for Sun thinking: wouldn't it be fun to make a OpenGl binding/network infrastructure/joystick API/... and starts of. 1 year later, Sun makes big press releases and conference presentations about that new and cool technology. Of course, announced by Sun, the master of the Java universe, it gets all the attention it deserves.
A standard is born and set and the others may go home now.
</rant>

BTW, is TimesTen related to TEN?

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-04-01 09:40:45 »

no disrespect to jeff, but herkules makes a good point.  i am very new to java gaming community, but from my perspective there is definately some friction here between the new official sun java apis and products and java community efforts.  

i think it is import however to remember that for licensing, platform support, agenda, or maintenance guarentees, sun cannot always start with the best open solution.   and forking it would not be an option either - then they would be seen as intellectual robbers even though the license might clearly permit this.

from jeff's explaination of his project, it clearly sounds like he was developing and researching his technology way before sun acquired his intellectual property.  thus, jeff conceivably would have a product anyhow.  it is a  strength on jeff's part, not a weakness that he was able to find a corporate partner to help him expedite his vision.

on the other side of the coin, it probably would have been nice to hear that sun made the effort to meet leading open solutions in the middle.  frankly, i am not sure how they would do this.  hire away lead developers from open projects?  respectfully ask for permission from  the leading community project to let sun fork it?  anyone have ideas here?

the thing that totally blows my mind is that xith3d looks to be what java3d should have been.   i also gather that sun let java3d get rusty and is now trying to revive it.  that makes no sense to me.  that looks like the perfect case for sun to reach out and make some negotiatory effort to escalate xith3d as java3d's successor.







Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-04-01 10:00:10 »

Quote
the thing that totally blows my mind is that xith3d looks to be what java3d should have been.   i also gather that sun let java3d get rusty and is now trying to revive it.  that makes no sense to me.  that looks like the perfect case for sun to reach out and make some negotiatory effort to escalate xith3d as java3d's successor.

Right on!
When LWJGL was initially developed there was nothing to "borrow" from or cooperate with (GL4Java was not an option, and JXInput was a bit too flexible for what we wanted) so we had to do it from scratch.
Then comes along JOGL/JOAL/JINPUT. Now JOGL is a bit of an odd fish in that it somehow wants to have an awt/swing dependency so they go about developing it all from scratch with a weird ass backend that about 3 persons on earth actually comprehend. However JOAL could just have used the OpenAL part of LWJGL, but no - they again develop it from scratch (borrowed some snippets from LWJGL though). Next up is JINPUT which basically IS JXInput - and again, rewritten from scratch.
Now the Not Invented Here syndrome is rather characteristic of Sun - but the part that really pisses me off, is that they took NO contact whatsoever to the "community" while doing this duplicate work, and they never even told why! So much for JCP being an open process Sad

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 152
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-04-01 10:09:10 »

I reakon you need to be careful here, if I went out tomorrow and wrote another binding to OpenAL, I wouldn't get slated (well, *I* might, but thats a different matter).

Would we all be so annoyed if these new APIs had come from less powerful origins. Could it be that the only really annoying part about this is that new developers (especially in Java) first look for a SUN implementation and only then if they can't find one look for something else.

So, while opening up a new project to do the same thing as an existing one is "bad form" and "impolite" its not actually technically bad in that it does encourage people to rethink ideas they originally had.

However, where Java3D is concerned the statement above does seem to be slightly short sighted. Java3D isn't and never was intended solely for gaming. On the gaming board we might consider it thus but its simply not the case. Xith3D aims squarely at gaming, and does it very well. Java3D is trying to be more things to more people. They are distinct and it makes sense they should both exist. Infact, coming back to the "what if it wasn't SUN" point, why is it there are at least 3 other Java3D liked scenegraphs based on an indepedant rendering layer on the go (yet as a community we accept this quite happily)?

Don't get me wrong, I don't personally agree with the duplication of effort or the waste of developers time and money. I do however think we need to wary of being critical of SUN just because they are a big company who can command the attention of the community.

Maybe we just need to educate people to make a technical decision instead of a blind decision..

Kev

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-04-01 10:27:08 »

The big problem IS when Sun blows its own trumpet!

Sun should be working WITH the community - not against it. And before you say they aren't, may I remind you of how Sun more or less invalidated Log4J with its own logging api? Sun should be forthcomming and sensitive to community work!

Then they nuke their own J3D implementation, and as soon as someone picks up where they left off - they re-enter the field. Though Xith3D may not be oriened towards cad/cam - I am fairly certain that it could easily be modelled into something quite usefull. I couldn't find any info - but isn't J3D closed source? - that doesn't exactly help either.

Join hands and minds, instead of duplicating efforts and getting half finished implementations.

/me slightly annoyed

Offline jared888

Senior Newbie




Eat your own shorts. Leave mine alone.


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-04-01 10:33:43 »

Quote


I'm not fan of database backend (I prefer to keep 4GB of data in mem) it will be possible ?


Uh...you need more than 4GB of storage for an online persistent world. Way more.


Beware the rabbit of the mind, for it gnaweth on the carrot of the soul.
Offline vrm

Junior Member




where I should sign ?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-04-01 10:49:55 »

I put big data in database but most of it is objects in the memory  Grin
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 152
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-04-01 10:51:59 »

Quote

The big problem IS when Sun blows its own trumpet!

Sun should be working WITH the community - not against it. And before you say they aren't, may I remind you of how Sun more or less invalidated Log4J with its own logging api? Sun should be forthcomming and sensitive to community work!


Na, I'd never say Sun always works with the commnuity. But then you should accept that the "community" is always broken into a set of facets, each pulling for their own vision of how things should be and with their own wants and expectations.

Quote

Then they nuke their own J3D implementation, and as soon as someone picks up where they left off - they re-enter the field. Though Xith3D may not be oriened towards cad/cam - I am fairly certain that it could easily be modelled into something quite usefull. I couldn't find any info - but isn't J3D closed source? - that doesn't exactly help either.  


Thats a rather glib interpretation of the events. Actually, Sun said they were trying to work out whether they'd continue with Java3D or not. I could interpret this to mean exactly what you've said. However, when Xith3D started it was noted that it was entired possible that Java3D might well pop up again, so some people interpreted it at face value. In addition, Xith3D have clearly stated that their goals are for Games, Games and more Games. So whether Xith could be modified for Java3D's other intended markets isn't the point, Xith doesn't want to go that way, and for good reason.

The closed source issue is close to my heart, I like Open Source projects, in fact, I prefer free source projects. However, I also dislike the idea that people should go round stomping on a project just because they don't want to release their source. Its a decision you have to take as technical person when choosing your API. Again, its all about educating the masses not picking on projects that choose not to release source.

Quote

Join hands and minds, instead of duplicating efforts and getting half finished implementations.


Indeed, the feeling of pure academics the world over. If we could all just work together the world would be a better place. But then, who decides whats a duplicate, from my initial point of view I couldn't understand why anyone would have implemented LWJGL with GL4Java existed. Now of course, with an open mind and a chance to understand I get it. The problem with being open and free is that you have to let other people/companies do it aswell.

Quote

* Matzon slightly annoyed


I'm sorry if I've contributed to you getting annoyed, I really didn't mean to. However, I do think we need to treat SUN like another member of the community and not as some perfect benevelant god and expect them to not be what they are, a money making machine.

Kev

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-04-01 11:00:27 »

Quote
The big problem IS when Sun blows its own trumpet!


In some ways it's not actually a problem for the rest of us, per se. It often is a lost opportunity, and sometimes it seems unnecessarily and pointlessly cruel (e.g. JInput), but generally it's Sun that is losing out (damaged reputation, reduced takeup (see how many people are losing faith in JOGL!), etc. OTOH, where Sun's blundering reduces uptake of java, limits the growth of java games development, etc, then that obviously is something I have major issues with.

As far as Sim Server goes, I have no problem with what Sun's done, other than the time I wasted attempting to talk with them - but that's just a personal minor irritation Smiley. FYI Sun is the only company we have ever dealt with who has given us sufficient cause for mistrust that I wouldn't send them anything of interest until I was holding an NDA in hand; we had no problems with Sony, IBM, etc - just Sun. And I think that's a serious issue for Sun (but again, it doesn't bother *me*!).

To be honest, I cannot envision Sun's actions with Sim Server causing any damage to games development at all. They are the 7th or 8th funded entrant to the market, are 2 years behind IBM, and a total of approximately $30 million (arguably, as much as $250 million or more) has been raised by other companies in the same niche since before 2000. Nearly all of that prior work is using java, so even if Jeff were extremely unlucky and the whole thing collapsed in a big mess (e.g. if no-one bought it, or the first game released with it kept falling over) no-one is going to take that as a bad mark against Java - most games devs seem to have an unshakeable belief that java is "perfect" for server development, and they already know that Sun's Sim Server is far from defining the state-of-the-art.

But Sun could have done so much better.

Quote

before you say they aren't, may I remind you of how Sun more or less invalidated Log4J with its own logging api? Sun should be


I thought that Log4J was actually deliberately created to be given to Sun to incorporate as the standard logging API? My knowledge here is patchy, because we don't use it (it's a crap logging API), so I may have misunderstood?

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-04-01 13:19:40 »

(jeff, apologies for hijacking the thread.)

i think it would behoove sun and the community to come up with a process for interaction.  this should include what the community would like to see from sun (of which i'm seeing many examples on this page) and what sun wants from the community (of which, i have seen examples posted from chris m.)

perhaps just an informal list of of cooperative goals from both perspectives is the starting point.

Offline blahblahblahh

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Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-04-01 13:29:02 »

I think that's part of what we have a community board for. Although they don't seem to have got anywhere:

http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=GTG;action=display;num=1080320741
(no response yet, 6 days and counting...)

...and there was a lot of controversy and pissed-off people in the way that Sun created the board.

The general impression was that Sun people are busy concentrating on other things right now, and don't want too much involvement with the community - hence the board was created to reduce the burden on individual Sun staff and also help oversee/filter interactions. I was one of those who was vigourously campaigning for the GTG maintaining a much more open relationship (some of which they agreed with and put in place, like Chris's weekly status updates), but mainly the reaction was that this was not part of their strategy.

I think to a certain extent the GTG are overwhelmed by how much the community wants to talk to them, and had underestimated how much involvement would be demanded of them (and feel it unfair that so much should be asked of them).

EDIT: I still find it laughable that individual games today do 5 times as much work with their fanbase as Sun does with the people that are trying to make games with java, and in the long run (actually, some of them in the short term too) are trying to make money for them.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-04-01 15:25:10 »

BlahBlahBlahh,

Wow.  Honestly, I am amazed at some of the sentiments here.  I think we have done a good job in fostering relationships with this community and am really shocked by the attitudes of a few of you Sad

With regard to JOGL, look.  LWJGL, when started, broke several fundimental things that are not allowed in verifying an API in the Java world.  JOGL did not.  End of story.  Cas and company wanted to do things the way they wanted and that's ok.  Just don't be angry when we CANT adopt it because it would not be validated by the JCP.  We decided on taking an implementation that was in the works, would pass the JCP and then open sourced it.  I don't know how we could have made it easier for the community to get their hands on technology that can actually become a fully approved "Java(tm) Technology" APIs.  Having said that, we have no problems with LWJGL in the community (evident by the fact that we support a forum on these boards for it) and continue to demostrate games done using it.  It think that is showing pretty good support if you ask me Smiley.  If it's still a sticking point, submit it the JCP and make it an official Java API.  What is stopping you from going this route?

Secondly, with regard to Java3D.  The reason for the lag in time in announcing J3D's fate was because the software arm of Sun (read: us) did not own the API, the HARDWARE group did.  To Doug's credit, he was able to finally wrestle it away, before it was killed, and breathe life back into it.  Sorry it took so long, but it is what it is.

Third, I have known how long Jeff was working on this and to try and diminish his accomplishments is childish.  I know that there are others that have been building companies doing similar things, but we think we have a unique solution here.  Now, with regard to BlahBlah, and I won't address this any more, if you think you have a solution that competes, great!  No problem.  But what tires me is your constant bashing of Sun in this community and your amazingly superior stance.

You talk about OUR lack of information yet you provide none on your site.  You talk about how difficult it is to work with Sun, but don't list who you have worked with.  In fact, I cant find one reference to ANYONE using your technology.  I would love to hear how your technology is being used by other companies but you still dont provide any references.  

With regard to being "pissed off" with the way the board was done.  It seems that you were the only one REALLY pissed off.  Hardly representative of the whole community.

Lastly, we have remained just as active as ever in this community.  You tell me that you havent noticed the updates to the front page, the fact that we have created 3 other pages across other Sun properties, started the competition, etc.  It seems, Adam, that you are just angry and feel that we have wronged you in some way.  Shame that you feel that way.  

With regard to resources, heck yeah.  We have been overrun with partners to talk to due to the excellent prototype that Jeff has put together and client demonstrations like Wurm, Tribal Trouble and JunkYard Puppies.  We are doing the best we can to facilitate the needs of this community and the needs of our company.

-ChrisM

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-04-01 15:43:43 »

As a few people have pointed out we NEVER said we killed J3D.  We always said it was "in stasis".  During that stasis a whoel bunch of dedicated people at Sun worked VERY hard to get Sun management to recommit to J3D and to do what we felt needed to be done with it.

Open Sourcing J3D has been a request of the J3D community (ofwhich, no offense guys, but you are actually a fairly small part) for a LONG time.  Go do a search on "Open Source" on the J3D interest archive if you don't believe me.

I thinmk what you guys did with XITH and what Shawn has doen is his book is great, but I also think you do need to see that sometimes the best part of Open Soruce projects is that they do lead the way for more traditional projects to follow.  The success of XITH as open source certainly made the argument to management to open source J3D stronger and I think a lot of folks are probably greatful to you for that. (I know I am.)  Siilarly Xith also stands a a great example of what a scene graph really needs to be to be "right" for the game industry.  J3D isn't quite there yet but with such goiod examples I'm hoping eventually it will be.

So personally while I am really really happy to see J3D again actively being developed as well as being open sourced, I am also really really happy that Xith exists.


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-04-01 15:45:23 »

Oh on the Sim Serer.  It can theroetically support databases up to terabytes.

As someone else has already wisely commented, you can think of the on-blade databases as caches.  As  long as you arent working with those terrabytes all at once theres no problem.  The master database, were ultimately all data comes from and goes back to, can if necessary actually front end to oracle which has the terrabyte capacity.


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline jherber

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-04-01 16:14:14 »

(personally, i am very grateful to be able to get someone with chris's stature from sun to chime in.)

perhaps some faq's about history of projects, etc... would make it completely obvious to future newbies like myself why there appears to be some duplication of effort.   thanks chris and jeff and all for clearing things up.

okay, back to jeff's sim server...  by chance did you see my question at the end of the first page of this thread?
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