Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (81)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (487)
Games in Android Showcase (110)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (552)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  Game market crashes after 2005?  (Read 4676 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Posted 2004-03-15 11:52:11 »

For anyone who missed it on slashdot, there is an interesting article here discussing why the games industry will crash after 2005. He does have a point, especially if things don't really change over the next year or two.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-03-15 12:10:29 »

Gah. Typical /. moronic tripe by someone who likes the sound of their own voice too much. This is half of why I don't read it (the other half being the equally moronic 1000+ comments on each news article).

Quote
Compare Madden NFL 2001 to Madden 2004. You have to squint to tell the difference. Do you think innovations for Madden 2007 will be startling by comparison?"


Could the author be any more stupid? Perhaps he should go and learn "Business 101" before making such comments. Perhaps he would realise the differences between different marketing strategies, different audiences, different customer profiles...and finally understand that even if Madden NFL were first brought out in 1987 it wouldn't have made sense for it to be any different in 1994.

Quote

As far as I can see, there are two kinds of video game enjoyment:


...is a bit like saying "as far as I can see, there are two types of religion in the world: the good ones and the bad ones". It's a gross over-simplification that may make some sense to an ignorant or foolish person, but is clearly a useless position to base any analysis on.

Quote

Microsoft and Nintendo both released new machines in 2001 and both failed. The new machines were not quite new (or novel) enough to catch anybody's attention.

In desperation, Nintendo dropped their price to $99 and marketed it as an ideal second gaming console, having to convince existing gamers to double up for lack of new customers.


He has an interesting definition of "failed" (which, incidentally, he doesn't bother to define; probably because it would involve too much thinking, which would make his head hurt).

If he meant "failed to unseat an extremel well-funded global corporation built on being the best producer of consumerised technology goods from a position of market dominance", then yes - they both failed. That's not very surprising though is it?

If he meant "failed to make a shedload of money" he's obviously wrong.

If he meant "failed to gain huge expertise in the market" he's again obviously wrong, and moreover has no idea how Microsoft works. MS didn't (really) care about unseating Sony. That's not their business model; they build to throw away. They never intended to beat Sony until Xbox 2 or 3...that's how they work.

...

and it goes on. I'm not going to bother reading the rest of it. I got to the bit about online gaming and just got fed up.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-03-15 12:57:26 »

Well, he has some valid points... however the way he sums it up doesnt really do the trick for me :>

One problem is the number of gamers... they won't increase much. Yet the dev costs for games get higher and higher and the price tag is basically the same for the last 20 years.

Right now you often need to sell more than one million copies to break even... but the games get bigger and bigger... more code, more sound, more models, more levels... just much much more.

How should that work? 5 million copies at 200$ to break even?

But then again... I think all those problems will solve themselfes. Every aspect will continue getting more high level. I guess that in 5 years a "generic" AAA title will have about 80% generated content (eg procedural textures and/or displacement maps).

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-03-15 13:01:15 »

I thought his fundamental point, which was that game innovation over the last 5 years or so has been limited mostly to increasing the number of triangles on screen, was a good one. It is all well and good to pick up on small details but you are basically avoiding the central question- what will make the next generation of games worth buying once we run out ways to noticeably improve the graphics?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 363
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-03-15 13:15:35 »

The games industry has lots of parallels with loads of other youth culture industries.

One of its saving graces is that there is an endless supply of kids who have never seen anything before, and it all looks fantastic to them. This is why you can keep selling the same old console game over and over with nicer graphics. The nicer graphics are often just the lure which attracts the eye - the video game equivalent of the shiny hardback book cover.

Many programmers lament the good old days when gameplay ruled etc. etc. but the reality is the good old days never left - gameplay still rules but nowadays you actually have competition to deal with. Few games with no gameplay actually sell - amazing graphics or not. However, games with "derivative" gameplay often sell acceptably, though they are much derided by the old hacks, who completely miss the point - a whole bunch of newcomers have never seen the game or gameplay before. If Max Payne 2 is basically just Quake with different guns and fancier graphics - who cares if you've never seen Quake? Quake came out, ooh, 6 years ago - long enough for an 8 yr old to become a 14 yr old. Think how many millions of extra customers who have never seen Quake will appear in the next year.

What is currently shafting the games market, IMO, is that games are ludicrously poor value for money from an investors' point of view. Why spend $5m on developing a product to get a 10% chance of making $100m when you can spend $50k and have a 50% chance of making $500k? Most of the customers barely care for the difference between a game that cost $50k and $5m when it comes to parting with their cash. If the game's fun, they'll pay for it. Extreme examples are Dweep Gold, Alchemy, Diamond Mine, Zuma's Revenge, and Swap. (Swap took just 10 days to write and made back its development budget in just 2 weeks).

So unless game developers take step back from trying to produce multimillion dollar epics and just get on with focusing on smaller, more fun games, they are probably going to be left high and dry without any investors sooner or later.

That's my 2p.

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-03-15 13:28:24 »

Quote
I thought his fundamental point, which was that game innovation over the last 5 years or so has been limited mostly to


I've seen this all before.

We were saying the same thing back in 92.

We were saying it again in 97.

To a certain extent, it's always true, and in fact there has been no innovation at all in the last 15 years. But, erm, no-one really believes it when you put it that way, do they (or if they do, what the heck do they think deathmatch was)? And therein lies my criticism: these statements are true only for a certain blinkered view of the industry. The lack-of-innovation issue isn't false, but you have to recognize it is a narrow view, and that you can't generalize it to encompass the whole industry, nor to encompass the industry's future.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-03-15 13:33:28 »

Quote

Right now you often need to sell more than one million copies to break even... but the games get bigger and bigger... more code, more sound, more models, more levels... just much much more.


!!! That's BS, I'm afraid. You still only need to sell about 300k-500k copies (*) to break even on a AAA+ title *unless* you were expecting something like 5m sales and designed your budget accordingly, so that only 1m+ sales would be profitable.

And as Cas pointed out, the breakeven point on a less flashy game is considerably lower.

(*) - 20% of sales revenue seems to be a good rule-of-thumb on studio income. This makes for approx $3m to $5m. From memory, the majority of AAA titles still come in on a $4m-$6m budget, barring the exceptionals (like when a company chooses to "bet the farm" on something, like you might sensibly do with Doom3 etc).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-03-15 13:40:34 »

Quote

completely miss the point - a whole bunch of newcomers have never seen the game or gameplay before. If Max Payne 2 is basically just Quake with different guns and fancier graphics - who cares if you've never seen Quake? Quake came out, ooh, 6 years ago - long enough for an 8 yr old to become a 14 yr old. Think how many millions of extra customers who have never seen Quake will appear in the next year.


An excellent point; this the kind of thing I meant when I said that the innovation view only looks at a narrow slice of the market - people peddling predictions based upon it tend to completely ignore the scenario you describe.

Quote

What is currently shafting the games market, IMO, is that games are ludicrously poor value for money from an investors' point of view. Why spend $5m on developing a product to get a 10% chance of making $100m when you can spend $50k and have a 50% chance of making $500k?


And of course this has manifested partially in the rise and fall and rise again and fall again of the big studios and publishers; gama has an interesting article up at the moment looking at reasons why indie game studios sell the company to people like EA, THQ, GTi, etc. The most common reason seemed to be "the bigger the games we develop, the bigger the risks, the harder it is to overcome bad luck (temporary personal loans etc stop being big enough to be able to save the company), and we just wanted to get out before it got too big to handle or we had a catastrophe and all the staff lost their jobs".

It's all very exciting to watch (who will go bankrupt/lose their stock-market listing/fire 75% of their staff *this* week?), but the people involved are surely going to get seasick *eventually*? Smiley.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline vrm

Junior Member




where I should sign ?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-03-15 13:52:04 »

thought MMORPG wasn't here in the 90's ..
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-03-15 14:05:17 »

UO?

Kev

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline DrBizzar0

Junior Member




Raj raj!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-03-15 14:14:42 »

A little, some what, related side note. I read an article a month ago or something that stated that EA Games didn't release a single game in 2003 that wasn't a followup or contained characters from a strong franchise (like harry potter and lord of the rings). Pretty scary  Grin
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-03-15 14:26:12 »

Quote
A little, some what, related side note. I read an article a month ago or something that stated that EA Games didn't release a single game in 2003 that wasn't a followup or contained characters from a strong franchise (like harry potter and lord of the rings). Pretty scary  Grin


And did it mention what they'd done in 02, 01, 00, and even 99? I can't remember off the top of my head what games they've published each year, but I was under the impression that EA's business plan has long been to publish followups and franchises in preference to anything else - they are more profitable and less risky. So, this is nothing new for 03.

Recall too the horror of Ultima fans when EA bought Origin and the expensive sexy ultima packaging (cloth maps in the box, little pendants and trinkets, heavy boxes and manuals) was replaced by flimsy (lighter => cheaper to transport; less material => cheaper to make) EA packaging and the "extras" were pruned away to increased profit.

This has been EA's hallmark: cut costs. Go with whatever's most profitable. I really wouldn't worry that anything's changing there Smiley.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-03-15 14:44:26 »

We have a lot of ex-bullfrog folk around our way who were all there until EA bought them out and turned the company into a sequel factory.  I do wonder what the management thought process is that takes a bunch of the best games programmers around and drives them all to resign in a matter of months. Of course, it did wonders in terms of getting a lot of new games companies starting up in the area and landed lionhead a lot of good people but I cannot see the benefits to ea.
Offline DrBizzar0

Junior Member




Raj raj!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-03-15 14:54:28 »

Quote
And did it mention what they'd done in 02, 01, 00, and even 99? I can't remember off the top of my head what games they've published each year, but I was under the impression that EA's business plan has long been to publish followups and franchises in preference to anything else - they are more profitable and less risky. So, this is nothing new for 03.


hehe true, but the last risky game they published that comes to my mind is The Sims, which turned out to be the most profitable game in history. Just making games for teen boys and game playing grown up men won't let you tap into the potential huge market The Sims gave a hint on. And since EA Games is noted on the stockmarket they'll probably eventually have to start attract new popultationgroups to be able to keep up the growth, and by that keep shareholders interested in the company.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-03-15 15:38:46 »

Quote
thought MMORPG wasn't here in the 90's ..


Know thine history Smiley:

http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/mudtimeline.html

...graphical MUD's / small MMOG's appeared around 1992

...MMOG's proper (FPS style) appeared in 1996

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-03-15 15:41:12 »

Personally I think that most of today's video games suck. Well, I really like a few of them, but I tend to stick with one and play it for year(s).
I regularly try demos of new games but usually within a few minutes they bore me (I think Breakfast hit the nail on the head.)

Braben's "Dog's Life" I found to be a very good and innovative idea and if I owned a PS2 I would play it. :-)

In total I spend 3/4 of my "playing time" with old emulated games: oldies but goldies.
If the games market crashes or not, I really don't care. I just need UAE, MAME, SNES9X, Jedi-Outcast and some of those nice independent games.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-03-15 16:29:15 »

Quote

One problem is the number of gamers... they won't increase much. Yet the dev costs for games get higher and higher and the price tag is basically the same for the last 20 years.

I gotta disagree with that. Not only do you have younger gamers turning up constantly, but the current media image is growing more friendly towards gaming in general, which means lots of people aren't going to be 'growing out of it' as much as before.

That and the fact that lots of companies are trying to widen their market and attract people who are traditionally non-gamers. With cheaper hardware that becomes easier and easier.

And I could rattle off a whole list of innovative games that have come out in the last year, you're just looking in the wrong places Tongue

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-03-15 19:44:09 »

Quote
I could rattle off a whole list of innovative games that have come out in the last year, you're just looking in the wrong places.

I only tend to read a few gaming related sites and get one games based print magazine on subscription, so I probably don't know where to look, but how far out of my way should I have to go? What is the point of innovation if no-one ever finds out about it?

Interesting question, though- what were the most innovative games of the last year, and in what way did they innovate?
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-03-16 05:22:29 »

Quote

I gotta disagree with that. Not only do you have younger gamers turning up constantly, but the current media image is growing more friendly towards gaming in general, which means lots of people aren't going to be 'growing out of it' as much as before.
[...]


Who cares about the current media image?

Everyone who stopped or reduced playing games did that, because they lost interest or just don't have enough time for playing.

Ofcorse there is a fresh stream of people, who never played any games before... but people stop playing one day or simply die. The total number of players just can't grow forever.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-03-16 05:28:37 »

Quote

Ofcorse there is a fresh stream of people, who never played any games before... but people stop playing one day or simply die. The total number of players just can't grow forever.


If you mean 'forever' like in 'time of universe', then certainly not. But if you mean our lifespan, why not ? There is more and more people on the earth each day. New, VERY big markets are opening (China, India) - in first case politically, in second economically.

I would be more worried that we all will have to learn Chinese and only then localize some games to English...

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-03-16 08:09:41 »

Quote


If you mean 'forever' like in 'time of universe', then certainly not. But if you mean our lifespan, why not ? There is more and more people on the earth each day. New, VERY big markets are opening (China, India) - in first case politically, in second economically.

I would be more worried that we all will have to learn Chinese and only then localize some games to English...


Well, the number of gamers doesn't grow expotentially anymore... and China/India... that's more like a new market they won't be magically added to your audience. Culture and ofcorse language might be an unavoidable obstacle and most likely it's out of range for your marketing anyways.

Just take eg football... in europe no one cares about it. The same is true for asia. Or take that "drive a train" game for PSX - it's a japan only thingy.

Sure there are games wich are attractive for the whole world equally. Puzzle games or jump n runs for example, but alot of games aren't.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-03-16 09:23:48 »

Quote

Just take eg football... in europe no one cares about it. The same is true for asia.


WTF Huh

Ah! You mean "American" football! Grin

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 363
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-03-16 10:16:18 »

no, he means American "football" Wink  Cool

Cas Smiley

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-03-16 10:37:08 »

Yes, I ment: American hand, foot'n'foul "ball" Tongue

Grin

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline jared888

Senior Newbie




Eat your own shorts. Leave mine alone.


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-03-25 15:21:30 »

Quote

Culture and ofcorse language might be an unavoidable obstacle and most likely it's out of range for your marketing anyways.
.


Not true,

I have hung out in all japanes and all-chinese game shops overseas, and they were ALL playing WCIII. In english. ALL of them. Every last one. This month it will be something different.

Teenage boys around the world, in all cultures want the same thing: Action/adventure/strategy games.

Also, every year, for the number of people that leave the game market, more people join it.

In addition, the article seemed to focus on console games. Whoopty-doo. He forgot a significant portion of the market: desktop workstations.

Blockbuster games will continue to be developed and will continue to make big bucks. Console or desktop.

If you are looking for new innovation, it is already there. Look for better AI, more realistic behavior, etc. The faster an average machine gets the more "real" the experience. Anyone on this forum NOT going to buy H2 when it comes out? Then you aren't a gamer. Just a wannabe with a poor attitude.

And graphics hitting a plateau? Bull$#!t

Have you seen the recent starwars and LOTR movies? When your average desktop machine can crank the battle scene quality CG images realtime that you saw in the movies then you can try to tell me you hit a graphics plateau. And no, no game has movie image quality yet...even half life 2 is SIGNIFICANTLY less real looking than the current CG in the movies industry.

And no, the speed of the processors speed increase  will never slow down. Twenty years from now someone will come out with a gigabyte sized bus, a terabyte of video memory, and all your game shops will be developing for it. New materials are discovered regularly, and the only reason that no one has built a gig sized bus is because we don't have the programming capability...not because it is technologically impossible to physically make a gig sized bus.

Oh, by the way, "new innovation will cease, and we will have to shut down the US patent office in the late 1800's"

Don't recognize the reference? Go get an education.

What the guy who wrote the article doesn't realize is that he is growing up. When one person gets tired of a hobby, it doesn't mean that the hobby is lost. It means that that one person is lost to the hobby.

He needs to g oout and take up paintball, or build a sailboat, or perhaps get a degree, a job, and contribute to society.

He was funny though. I will give him that.

Beware the rabbit of the mind, for it gnaweth on the carrot of the soul.
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-03-25 15:41:33 »

Quote
(..)
If you are looking for new innovation, it is already there. Look for better AI, more realistic behavior, etc. The faster an average machine gets the more "real" the experience. Anyone on this forum NOT going to buy H2 when it comes out?

I won't buy H2, it doesn't interest me (neither did Halflife). Neither does Doom3. As I said previously, the time I spend with gaming is already filled (3/4 of them with oldies).
Of course technically the ID games always have been impressive. However there are companies out there to make real games with their engines. Every few years I tend to play some of these.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-03-25 19:40:35 »

Quote


Not true,

I have hung out in all japanes and all-chinese game shops overseas, and they were ALL playing WCIII. In english. ALL of them. Every last one. This month it will be something different.
[...]


"All" huh? Well not me or any of my friends. No one.

And there aren't any barriers? Yea, sure. A japanese dating sim will ofcorse sell aswell in the US or Europe. Roll Eyes

However, I agree that the whole article is badly influenced by the fact that the author lost interest in playing games and I also agree that raw computing power will increase as usual for at least the next decade (as usual=Moore's law). But the problem is creating the sheer amount of media you'll need - that's damn expensive... it already is and if you need 1000times more "stuff" it won't get any cheaper. And... well I already wrote that stuff Wink

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline jared888

Senior Newbie




Eat your own shorts. Leave mine alone.


« Reply #27 - Posted 2004-03-25 19:49:28 »

Quote


"All" huh? Well not me or any of my friends. No one.



I apologize if I was being unclear. My fault.

I meant to say that I have seen the gaming market, at a glance, inthe asia/pacific area, and there are plenty of non-western teenage males that will buy the english version of whatever is hot this month and play it until they find the next game.

Basically, I was trying to say that a broad "Cultural barriers will prevent games from spreading to new markets" is a load of bunk. Cultural barriers will affect the spread of games to new markets some. But they will not prevent the spread....

Also, please let me retract the H2 comment.  I was being a bit zealous. What I should have said was
that halflife 2 (not an id product) has a very impressive demo and there will be lots of FPS fans out there buying it up, throughout 2005.

Ok. Detractions and clarifications stated.

Apologies for the sore toes.

Beware the rabbit of the mind, for it gnaweth on the carrot of the soul.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #28 - Posted 2004-03-25 20:10:04 »

Quote

I also agree that raw computing power will increase as usual for at least the next decade (as usual=Moore's law).

Somehow I doubt that. Current manufacturing processes are getting near the limits of what they're capable of. You can't keep reducing the circuit size because you end up hitting weird physic-y limitations, and you can't just increase the die size to compensate because then you send reliability (and thus prices) though the roof. We're already seeing a slowing in the pace of new chips.

Don't get me wrong, they'll still be getting faster. I just expect that they'll have to be at least one major change in direction in order to keep up with Moore's law.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #29 - Posted 2004-03-25 20:47:53 »

>Current manufacturing processes are getting near the limits
>of what they're capable of.

Actually we were getting near those limits several times. A new lithographic process solved it... or stretched silitium. There are already new ways to produce even smaller stuff (3 shrink steps ahead). By the time that will be reach that there will be new things ready for the mass market eg bio chips, single molecule transistors, nano tubes... whatsoever Smiley

Also Moore's law isn't about the clock speed (wich doesnt says anything) Wink

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

CopyableCougar4 (23 views)
2014-08-22 19:31:30

atombrot (34 views)
2014-08-19 09:29:53

Tekkerue (30 views)
2014-08-16 06:45:27

Tekkerue (28 views)
2014-08-16 06:22:17

Tekkerue (18 views)
2014-08-16 06:20:21

Tekkerue (27 views)
2014-08-16 06:12:11

Rayexar (65 views)
2014-08-11 02:49:23

BurntPizza (41 views)
2014-08-09 21:09:32

BurntPizza (31 views)
2014-08-08 02:01:56

Norakomi (41 views)
2014-08-06 19:49:38
List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 11:54:12

HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 01:59:08
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!