Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (81)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (499)
Games in Android Showcase (118)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (568)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  PUPPY GAMES needs YOUR GAME  (Read 6388 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Posted 2003-09-05 19:20:31 »

Puppy Games (that's me, Chaz, and Charlotte) have only so many fingers, and most of the time, those fingers are occupied grubbing in the soil for worms for dinner instead of writing fantastic games.

So what are YOU doing with your spare time?

Puppy Games needs top quality games to publish. And here's a special offer you cannot ignore:

We will publish your first Java game with us for no royalty for 12 months.

We have only a few criteria:

  • It's got to be written in Java and use the LWJGL or similar tiny library...
  • ...because the compiled demo EXE must be no more than about 10 megs or so
  • It's got to live up to our production standards before we'll publish it - and we're very demanding
  • We don't want to know unless it can be played! Keep your ideas to yourselves and get those alphas up and running
  • It's got to be original and fun. Or mostly original, and really fun Cheesy


Take advantage of the cross-promotional opportunity to sell games to other customers! Take advantage of our huge site exposure! Take advantage of our huge list of promotional contacts! Take advantage of our win-win publishing deal terms!

You CAN put Java gaming on the map. Please direct any enquiries to me directly via email.

NOW!

Cas Smiley

Offline Conzar

Junior Member




There is nothing common about common sense


« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-09-09 15:26:43 »

I Guess that means no J3D huh?

Ubuntu
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-09-09 15:50:32 »

Not a chance!

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-09-23 01:04:58 »

a question - what exactally do you mean by "compiled demo EXE"?  Are you talking about the installer, or compiling the java code down to native code using somthing like Jet?

If the latter - why?  Plenty of games are distributed with an installer.

Will.

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-09-23 14:36:12 »

We compile the demo with JET to get the size down. As time goes by this gets less relevant... 60m broadband punters are around now...

Cas Smiley

Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-09-23 14:51:14 »

Could you define for me "tiny library"? (or is benchmark for size setup according to size of LWJGL?)
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-09-23 15:41:15 »

Well let's put it this way - we're doing OK with the demo currently running at 11.5mb but I wouldn't stray too far beyond that if at all possible.

Having said that, we're open to suggestions if someone came up with an awesome game.

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-09-25 20:29:21 »

I guess this also means no AWT, doesn't it?
Or is a bytecode distribution for the demo possible too in any way?

Erik

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-09-25 20:39:25 »

AWT is probably not going to happen while it bloats the distribution so massively. Having said that, if your game warrants having an entire JRE shipped along with it, maybe it'll work out - I just think you're hardly going to get any downloads. We have to be pretty realistic about why Java itself is spreading so slowly - it's massive, and it doesn't even do anything.

Cas Smiley

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-09-25 21:55:43 »

Not every game is Alian Flux however.  Different games have different needs and target audiances.

If you target casual PC users then perhaps you need to ship everything, but advanced users may have no trouble with "if you don't have java 1.4.2 installed - go here first".  It's not too hard to have two downloads.

I think you are unnessesarily restricting your potential customer base.  If someone thinks they can make a valid business poposal then why try to tell them otherwise?  Is there anything to loose?

It appears many PC's may be java-enabled in the near future anyway - http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32981.html  and Dell is where all the beginners go...

Do book publishers say "I will only publish books of 350 pages in soft cover"?  or "I will only publish books for children"?  Normally not - they think "can I make money (or exposure) from publishing this?", "am I physically able to publish this?" and if the answer is yes to both - then they do.

just my thoughts,

Will.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 15
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-09-26 06:07:57 »

Isn't the JRE download only like 8 megs? (that is, significantly smaller than directx)

Play Minecraft!
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-09-26 07:54:56 »

Just checked: 14.3 Megs

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 15
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-09-26 08:07:24 »

I should start checking my facts. Hehe.

Play Minecraft!
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-09-26 09:01:45 »

William, we're quite well researched on our business model and it does to a very large extent rely on vast exposure. This really isn't the retail industry. The downloadable games industry has four main factors:

1. Download size. Every increase of 5MB in the demo reduces the downloads by 10%.

2. Exposure. To sell thousands you have to reach millions.

3. Simplicity. If it's any more complicated than click-download-install-run, you immediately lose huge numbers of players, and hence customers.

4. Conversion. You have to be able to convert demo downloaders into customers.

Each factor is a multiplied together to get the final sales rate. If any one factor is below par, the whole sales rate is affected. One of the easiest factors to address is download size - unless you're coding in Java. Simplicity is likewise one of the hardest factors to address - if you rely on having JVMs being downloaded first, you again lost a vast percentage of customers. And so on. Best go and check out the Developer Articles on Dexterity.com for a full and detailed explanation.

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-09-26 09:40:45 »

Losing AWT would not be that big a deal anyway if you use LWJGL. The only thing I would have to rewrite for example is the texture loading (and probably ditching AudioClip, but that should never have been in there anyway  Smiley).

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-09-26 09:51:48 »

The fact is you've got to compare the download size with what you get from a C++ application.

In a 20MB C++ application you've more or less got 2MB of code and 18MB for content - that's a big game.

In a 20MB Java application you've got 14MB blown in a JVM, 2MB of code or so (they're approximately equal), leaving just 4MB for content. That's a 20MB download for 4MB of content. Ouch! One day in the distant future Java might be present on 80% of all desktops and Webstarting will be the norm but until that day comes you'll find, like we did, that the vast majority of downloaders don't try Webstart. We had it all nicely set up to autodetect on our site and so on, only to discover that of 20,000 visitors from java.com didn't bother with Webstart, they went straight to the .exe. What's more, many download sites including the ubiquitous download.com won't let you link to a file that's not an exe or zip.

Or you can sort of cheat, like we did, but we won't go into that here because I'm still having immense difficulty getting hold of Chris...

Cas Smiley


Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 15
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-09-26 10:28:32 »

So what about the size of Direct X compared to the size of the C++ game?

Play Minecraft!
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-09-26 10:31:37 »

On the long term, java web start actually decreases download size because when you release new version you don't have to download the whole thing again if you set it up clever. You can also set things up so that the jars get downloaded once you need them (although that may be a annoying in a game in many cases).
Unfortunately, these are arguments that will only make sense to people that have already bought the game or have web start installed and are familiar with it.
Before that, the other arguments like simplicity (not wanting to bother to download the JRE, find out what web start is, download the game etc) but also exposure are probably more important.

Erik

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-09-26 10:35:20 »

You're in the same boat no matter what with a few important differences:

Nearly all Windows users have DirectX installed, and nearly all DirectX installations are at version 7 now. DirectX 7 is perfectly adequate for 3D gaming and can be relied upon to be present, basically. Microsoft takes care of distributing DirectX and they do a much, much, better job of it than Sun does of distributing the JRE, and we all know why that is.

About 35% of my potential customers it turns out don't have OpenGL installed, and of that 35%, about 1% of them bother to subsequently get drivers just to try out my game. One of my biggest problems at the moment getting that 1% up to a much higher figure (ideally 100%). I'm working on an automatic GL driver downloader which will do it on the fly when GL drivers are missing.

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-09-26 10:35:53 »

Quote
So what about the size of Direct X compared to the size of the C++ game?


How is that so important? DX gets delivered with the OS and indie games rarely need a higher version than that. And it gets delivered on about every coverdisk you can find. Plus a new version gets installed automatically when you install a game from CD. So people are automatically up to date.
I only dl'ed DX once because my current version had an annoying bug related to my soundcard, not because I didn't have or needed the latest features to play this particular game or something.

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 15
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-09-26 10:58:18 »

Ah, so you're saying java is too big because it's not distributed enough, so instead of packaging the game with java (and thus upping the distribution of it) we should choose a very non-javaish way and compile it down into native excecutables.

So why not just use C++?

Play Minecraft!
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-09-26 14:53:46 »

Let Sun worry about distribution of the JRE, that's their problem. Our problem is developing proper games in less time. Partly that's why we use Java, partly that's why we use OpenGL. When the time comes that Webstart is a viable distribution method you'll already be there, waiting.

Cas Smiley

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-09-26 15:14:07 »

And just to chime in *ONE MORE TIME* I think that eveyone here is making a bigger deal over download size than there really is.  Look, consumers will wait for the content, even very large files, if the content is desireable enough.  Never minde the fact that you only have to go through the hulking JVM download once and incremental dl's there on out.

Go check out WildTangent's website.  One fof their top games is Men In Black II Extreme.  20+MB Download....without the WildTangent plugin (another 4-7mb)

Sorry guys, I am convinced that the download issue is really not such a big issue anymore....

-SG

One more thing, with regard to DirectX.  It may ship with the Windows operating system, but most games today require you upgrading.  And their technology upgrade is NOT incremental, unlike the JRE.

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2003-09-26 18:22:48 »

It's as much about complexity as size. As soon as a potential customer has to download another thing to make something work, they give up.

(I've actually got the proof finally too but that's another story)

And Chris, we really do need to talk when you get a few minutes...

Cas Smiley

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #24 - Posted 2003-09-27 09:55:25 »

I wasn't criticizing the business model of Alien Flux but more that of Puppy Games (ie the publisher).

I understand all the arguments that you have put forward and I think the LWJGL does provide a valuable alternative (one I have quoted in arguing with a less java enthusiastic friend of mine proving that you can do things in java he thought you couldn't).  Alien Flux appears to benifit from this.

What I am saying is why restrict your Puppy Games publisher business by imposing the Alien Flux model onto others who might be developing very different games with very different target audiances?  A book publisher would reject a 600 page book aimed at five year olds, but would normally consider it if it was aimed at adults for example.

I have to confess I hadn't realised the runtime had become so big! 15MB, geeze...

Will.

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #25 - Posted 2003-09-27 20:47:17 »

If we "outsource" our development to other developerps, our primary cost is bandwidth. It costs a little bit for every meg downloaded. A game that sells for $20 and is only 10mb will make three times the profit of a game that sells for $20 and is 30mb. It's basic, simple economics.

It's also pretty much a dead cert that it's not the size of games that sells them, it's just how good they are at satisfying a market. As we've discovered with Alien Flux, which as a valuable learning exercise I'd urge anyone else not to write a hardcore shoot-em-up and try to sell it to the great unwashed Cheesy


Cas Smiley

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #26 - Posted 2003-09-27 22:36:22 »

fair enough.  Do you get a large sum of bandwidth to start with?  One server company I know about gives somthing like 700GB/month which is about 23k downloads of a 30MB game.

if you offload the jvm onto sun, then you can double that amount too or if you have a download for people who already have the jvm.

So what if bandwidth wasn't an issue - ie the developer was hosting that on their server (eg. in the case of a multiplayer game).  Then you are left with registration processing, support and publicity?  Anyone can host a file for download but the other three points are much harder to do, especially alone.  Would Puppy Games do that?

Will.

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2003-09-27 22:47:05 »

Well, let's try it and see!

The absolute, final number one hurdle to everything is... actually having a product to sell. So far there's been a stunning lack of anything concrete from anyone, not even a vague hint of a half completed demo! Apart from Elias and he's doing his own stuff his own way. Although I reckon I can blag an affiliate deal out of him because his game looks so good Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 15
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #28 - Posted 2003-09-28 00:34:34 »

Quote
So far there's been a stunning lack of anything concrete from anyone, not even a vague hint of a half completed demo!


*cough, hack*

Play Minecraft!
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 391
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #29 - Posted 2003-09-28 03:31:45 »

Stunning lack of nearly anything Wink Besides - Wurm is still just a tech demo - there's no game there yet! That's the hard part!

Cas Smiley

Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

Pippogeek (40 views)
2014-09-24 16:13:29

Pippogeek (31 views)
2014-09-24 16:12:22

Pippogeek (21 views)
2014-09-24 16:12:06

Grunnt (47 views)
2014-09-23 14:38:19

radar3301 (29 views)
2014-09-21 23:33:17

BurntPizza (65 views)
2014-09-21 02:42:18

BurntPizza (37 views)
2014-09-21 01:30:30

moogie (43 views)
2014-09-21 00:26:15

UprightPath (53 views)
2014-09-20 20:14:06

BurntPizza (55 views)
2014-09-19 03:14:18
List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 11:54:12

HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 01:59:08
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!