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  Sun plans to unveil new Java logo next week  (Read 4834 times)
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Offline aikarele

Senior Newbie





« Posted 2003-06-06 16:05:02 »

http://news.com.com/2100-1007_3-1013860.html?tag=fd_top
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-06-06 16:09:55 »

Does this mean I have to replace my new Java T-Shirt? Drats. Foiled again.

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-06-06 17:13:03 »

Quote


"IBM, Red Hat and others have been pushing Java development tools in the open-source Eclipse project, but Schwartz disparages that effort for undermining Java's independence from particular computers. "Eclipse is really the wrong direction. It's about binding your applications to an operating system," he said. "


Say what?!
Somebody slap that Jonathan Schwartz in the face and have him rinse his mouth with soap.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline aikarele

Senior Newbie





« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-06-06 18:15:19 »

Quote
Does this mean I have to replace my new Java T-Shirt? Drats. Foiled again.


NO! This means that now your Java T-shirt has cult status and you should wear it forever. Just like some guys still have "Metallica World Tour 1983" T-shirts on and it makes you wonder "that guy hasn't changed his shirt for 20 years?!"
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 22


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-06-06 18:45:32 »

Does this mean the end for Duke aswell ?

So the answer to the advert.. "what has duke been up to?" would be "he's being busy being replaced."

Kev

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-06-06 20:55:24 »

Re: Eclipse... the IDE is great.. but the SWT is a big waste of time and ties Eclipse only to computer for which a decent SWT implementation exists...  The Mac Port for instance is still very slow...  all that work that Apple did to get their Aqua look and feel  working so well with Java.. then the Eclipse team goes and starts from scratch... sigh.

If Eclipse was Swing based then it would be so much better.. if not simply because all that development effort could be focused on IDE issues.
Maybe SWT is what AWT should have been.. but Swing was created not because AWT sucked, but because there would always be problems with that approach.


Offline AndersDahlberg

Junior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-06-06 21:04:46 »

Gtk version of eclipse is also slow (IMHO - a lot slower than the windows version atleast - and my own swing app - ~10mb ~ is running as fast on windows and linux so I guess it's not a vm thingy...).  Embarrassed

I believe the future is swing (or something else - not swt though as it stands now).
Offline nickdotjava

Junior Member




I have fallen to the dark side.  I'm using DX9


« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-06-06 21:39:04 »

Quote
So the answer to the advert.. "what has duke been up to?" would be "he's being busy being replaced."


That's one interpretation.  You could also say he's getting plastic surgery, or getting genetically altered.  Be happy for him!  He's improving (I hope)!

-Nick

"Oh ya, that's trivial.  I should have it done in an hour."
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-06-06 22:11:28 »

Quote
Re: Eclipse... the IDE is great

The quote was from a section *about* IDE's, not windowing API's.

Quote
.. but the SWT is a big waste of time and ties Eclipse only to computer for which a decent SWT implementation exists...  


You have a point there that SWT limits Eclipse to just a few platforms. OTOH, who complains? How many people want to run Eclipse on Solaris, AS/400 (oops, that's out of the question anyway Roll Eyes), or HP9000 or...?
I believe it runs on Windows, Linux and Mac. Who does development on another platform?
And one of the reasons eclipse is so nice is that it is so very responsive, even on lower end systems, which I account for a large part on SWT.
I really look forward to Sun's response to VS.net 'cos they seem to be getting on the right track again, but also I have still some fears it will be an updated SunONE Studio with unreal minimum system requirements and still have a swing based GUI with an almost-Solaris-like L&F on a windows platform  :-/.

Offline aikarele

Senior Newbie





« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-06-06 23:56:00 »

Quote
Does this mean the end for Duke aswell ?

Duke Nukem Forever!

Quote
I really look forward to Sun's response to VS.net 'cos they seem to be getting on the right track again, but also I have still some fears it will be an updated SunONE Studio with unreal minimum system requirements and still have a swing based GUI with an almost-Solaris-like L&F on a windows platform


Maybe Sun will just throw in  Windows XP look and feel Oh noooo!
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-06-07 04:17:43 »

Quote
I believe it runs on Windows, Linux and Mac. Who does development on another platform?
And one of the reasons eclipse is so nice is that it is so very responsive, even on lower end systems, which I account for a large part on SWT.

Ah but that is just it.. it ISN'T responsive on Linux (according to post above re: GTK) and Mac.  I use it on a 1GHz Powerbook and it is much slower than the Windows version.. almost to the point where I don't bother with it.  I hear it is getting a bit better with some of the newer builds of SWT.. but that's the whole point.. the bulk of the porting effort is SWT.. and I personally don't attribute any speed to the use of SWT.  I just don't believe that it was ever a bottle neck for that sort of application.  I mean sure you could do things really crappy with Swing (*cough* NetBeans *cough*) which is probably what people are comparing to.. but then they are comparing apples and oranges - it isn't the same algortihm with Swing UI and a SWT UI that is being compared most of the time.

I can't think of anything I could do to a Swing menu or button that would make it noticably less responsive.  Syntax highlighted source editing works plenty fast with Swing... even NetBeans seems fast enough at that aspect.

Eclipse doesn't do much with massive tables and lists that might be slower if the Swing default models weren't replaced with something more appropriate (something that you can at least do in Swing!).
The one thing that I noticed was slowing down the Mac version of Eclipse was actually filling the list of tasks, errors, and warnings when it compiled... that was MUCH slower on the Mac than Windows.. painfully so... (but it is one of the things that has been improved)..
I almost wish someone would port SWT to Swing  Grin.  At least then there would be a more universally accessible version.

Darn it.. I've veered another thread off-topic .. sorry.  We need to have a forum with the ability to branch the threads Smiley

[I now make a pathetic attempt to be on topic]
I think the logo thing is an ambitious undertaking... sounds expensive.  I hope it works out.  Like I said long ago on the old forum, I would like to see the day when I can walk into a game store and just look for the "Java Compatible" logo on the box and not have to head for a PC, Mac, Game Cube, PS2 section...  If consumers actually recognized Java and reacted in a similar way - that would be great.  Maybe then consumers could actually choose the operating systems and hardware that they really wanted instead of being forced to comply with a crappy defacto standard handed down by a convicted monopolist.

Offline sma

Junior Member





« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-06-07 09:35:35 »

Quote

Ah but that is just it.. it ISN'T responsive on Linux (according to post above re: GTK) and Mac.


While SWT, the API, is crossplatform, the speed unfortunately isn't. On Windows it's fast. But on other platforms, it depends. I'd suggest to try the Motif version on Linux because it's faster than GTK. Some guy is creating a version based on the FOX toolkit and he says, that his version be must faster, too.  Just give him another couple of weeks - or some helping hand. IBM is also asking people not just to complain but to help to improve the Linux version of SWT.  The Mac version shall have been improved on the new 3.0 M1 build which is available since yesterday.  I'm using Eclipse on Windows only, so I can't say whether that's true, I'm just happy with the responseness on Windows, that's all I can say.

Quote
I mean sure you could do things really crappy with Swing (*cough* NetBeans *cough*) which is probably what people are comparing to.. but then they are comparing apples and oranges - it isn't the same algortihm with Swing UI and a SWT UI that is being compared most of the time.


I completely agree here.

Quote
I can't think of anything I could do to a Swing menu or button


But don't use menus and menubars as an example as these are sort of broken in Swing and perhaps the slowest components which make applications feels "non-native" (at least on Windows).  Just go onto the menubar with our mouse and let the menus pop open while moving over the menu bar.  That's much slower than with a native application ... especially if people create menu actions lazily.

Quote
I almost wish someone would port SWT to Swing


Actually, somebody is doing exactly this. I don't have the URL right now, but search the Eclipse newsgroup archive.

.: Truth Until Paradox!
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-06-07 11:57:35 »

Quote
Darn it.. I've veered another thread off-topic .. sorry.


No, it was completely my fault.  Lips Sealed Sorry about that.  Smiley
I just couldn't resist when I read the article which was linked here.

Quote
Maybe Sun will just throw in  Windows XP look and feel Oh noooo!

They just fixed the windows l&f so that your programs don't look like a win98 program on your XP box anymore, which is actually a Very Good Thing.

Quote
I think the logo thing is an ambitious undertaking... sounds expensive.  I hope it works out.  Like I said long ago on the old forum, I would like to see the day when I can walk into a game store and just look for the "Java Compatible" logo on the box and not have to head for a PC, Mac, Game Cube, PS2 section...  If consumers actually recognized Java and reacted in a similar way - that would be great.  Maybe then consumers could actually choose the operating systems and hardware that they really wanted instead of being forced to comply with a crappy defacto standard handed down by a convicted monopolist.


I couldn't agree more  Smiley
A new logo could be a very clever move.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-06-07 15:08:46 »

Quote
How many people want to run Eclipse on Solaris, AS/400 (oops, that's out of the question anyway ), or HP9000 or...?
I believe it runs on Windows, Linux and Mac. Who does development on another platform?


I do!  Angry In fact, there are still a lot of people out there using Sun or HP workstations to do complex numerical analysis and other tasks for which Unix machines are well suited. I started using Netbeans on a Sun UltraSparc, and I still have it loaded on my home Ultra 10. I also use it on FreeBSD. In reality, Eclipse is a WindBlows only product. Just because it runs under other OSes doesn't mean it *works* under other OSes.

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-06-07 23:44:31 »

Quote
I do!   In fact, there are still a lot of people out there using Sun or HP workstations to do complex numerical analysis and other tasks for which Unix machines are well suited. I started using Netbeans on a Sun UltraSparc, and I still have it loaded on my home Ultra 10.


Lips Sealed
Ok, I stand corrected.
The projects I have been involved in that used Solaris on the production site did all development on PC's. Simply because a Solaris isn't the kind of machine that typically sits on every developers desk, which is usually a PC. Then transfer updates to a test machine for QA, which was a Solaris like the production machine.
I figured that this was the way things usually go.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-06-08 01:02:28 »

Quote
The projects I have been involved in that used Solaris on the production site did all development on PC's. Simply because a Solaris isn't the kind of machine that typically sits on every developers desk, which is usually a PC. Then transfer updates to a test machine for QA, which was a Solaris like the production machine.
I figured that this was the way things usually go.


This is true for web development, which is a rather recent form of development. It's actually pretty neat that we're able to develop on PCs and release on Solaris. None the less, there are still plenty of uses for Unix workstations. Numerical analysis programs are one. Many of these can take up GIGS of RAM. Not exactly something you can use a PC for. Smiley (Do some quick calcs on Voxel data sizes and you'll see what I mean.)

Another is 3D work. While PCs are getting more and more powerful, a lot of TV shops or Movie studios still use Unix machines for both better color from the output cards (many Unix machines are capable of anywhere from 40-64 bit color!!!) and to just get the job done faster. TV studios especially work on tight schedules and may have very little time to be wasting on test/production renders.

My favorite reason tho, is that they don't make PCs that can keep up with me once I start developing. I had to custom build a PC to get even close! Grin

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-06-08 03:32:25 »

Quote


[I now make a pathetic attempt to be on topic]
I think the logo thing is an ambitious undertaking... sounds expensive.  I hope it works out.  Like I said long ago on the old forum, I would like to see the day when I can walk into a game store and just look for the "Java Compatible" logo on the box and not have to head for a PC, Mac, Game Cube, PS2 section...  If consumers actually recognized Java and reacted in a similar way - that would be great.  Maybe then consumers could actually choose the operating systems and hardware that they really wanted instead of being forced to comply with a crappy defacto standard handed down by a convicted monopolist.


Ah!  Of course, I said this 1 1/2 years ago Smiley :

http://www.gamespy.com/gdc2002/jgp/

Great minds and all.  Oh, and the logo thing?  MMMuuuuhhahahahha!!!  Let's just say that this will be the most exciting JavaOne since the conference started.

-SG

Offline ivanm

Senior Newbie




I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-06-08 14:15:47 »

Quote


Some guy is creating a version based on the FOX toolkit and he says, that his version be must faster, too.  Just give him another couple of weeks - or some helping hand. IBM is also asking people not just to complain but to help to improve the Linux version of SWT.


Oops, shame on me, it didn't work first time. Okay, another try:

This is my first post here and it's already way off-topic.

Okay, I'm the guy that did the SWT/Fox port.
FYI: The thing already has a home page, http://swtfox.sf.net and Eclipse Update Site, http://swtfox.sf.net/updates.
There is a Fox/Win32 version of the port uploaded. Note that the Fox/Win32 port id for testing purposes only.
The real target of the port is Fox + *nix + X11 and I'll try to upload a Linux version ASAP.

(At the moment I'm fighting with Ant/CPPTasks + gcc, trying to convice them to link Fox statically, but no such luck yet.)

I welcome any volunteer that wants to code/test/give suggestions etc. Probably the most useful thing would be if someone with access to 64b Unix (Solaris/Sparc, anyone?) steps up and tries to carry out the build procedure on such machine.

In theory SWT/Fox is 64b clean and it should run anywere Posix + X11 are available.

P.S. Im one of those ghost visitors here since the inception of the site a few years ago. It is definitely the best site for Java client-side discussions.  Smiley
Offline Tzan

Junior Member





« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-06-08 16:20:44 »

Quote

Oh, and the logo thing?  MMMuuuuhhahahahha!!!  Let's just say that this will be the most exciting JavaOne since the conference started.

-SG



So the new logo is a girl in a thong bikini and there will be a live model of the logo bouncing around the conference?
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-06-08 19:06:13 »

No - you're thinking E3  Grin

Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member




Who, me?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-06-08 23:22:25 »

No, it's one of AlienFlux's Fluffies! Grin

Comes with the tagline "Java: the Cute and Cuddly Choice".

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline GergisKhan

Junior Member




"C8 H10 N4 O2"


« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-06-09 00:02:16 »

That's "cute and fluffy" and if Stitch ever found out he'd eat you.  Grin

gK

"Go.  Teach them not to mess with us."
          -- Cao Cao, Dynasty Warriors 3
Offline Kevdog

Junior Member





« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-06-17 16:52:19 »

The new logo is pretty cool and much cleaner and easier to reproduce (it should be in the upper left corner of this page).  

Should really help for branding, and the push to have people put buttons that link to the new java.com site is a great step forward as well.


There are only 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who don't!
Offline GergisKhan

Junior Member




"C8 H10 N4 O2"


« Reply #23 - Posted 2003-06-17 17:41:10 »

jbanes posted this earlier, and I'm curious too:

Can anyone find or clarify the rules on logo usage for Java?

Specifically, what does it mean to be a licensee so you can use "Java Verified", "Java Compatible" and "Java Powered"?

I know the coffee cup itself is off limits (so sayeth Sun) to anyone but Sun.  

Any thoughts?

gK

"Go.  Teach them not to mess with us."
          -- Cao Cao, Dynasty Warriors 3
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2003-06-17 18:29:38 »

Teh coffee cup is not totally off-limits as they are encouraging you to link to java.net with a coffee cup button and http://www.puppygames.net/ displays a version of the logo.

I there must be a channel to ask for permission to use the logo...  somebody that knows the details can post further info.

Offline GergisKhan

Junior Member




"C8 H10 N4 O2"


« Reply #25 - Posted 2003-06-19 01:40:02 »

I don't want to make waves for Cas, he's riding high as well he should.  But I don't want him to get into trouble either.

The latest I got from Sun's licensing is that the lone coffee cup, of which Cas has a clone of, is most definitely off-limits... Sun use only.  Unless they have changed this and didn't tell anyone, I am assuming this rule stands.

But there are at least three other logs that are in question:

- The java.net logo, of which I think you merely have to click a button after reading the license to access

- The Get Java Now! button, and its relative "Jump to Java" featuring Duke.  Same rules, only you have to wait for an email back from Sun giving you download access

- Java Verified, Java Compatible, Java Powered, are all logos that licensees can use.  The question I am pursuing with their marketing dept. is what is a Java licensee?  I have found NO information on this whatsoever, and since Java is no-cost, I don't understand what changes in this case.

gK

"Go.  Teach them not to mess with us."
          -- Cao Cao, Dynasty Warriors 3
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #26 - Posted 2003-06-19 13:51:21 »

Well, I certainly hope that they've loosened the restrictions a bit then.. because this huge marketing campaign can't work smoothly if there is a huge gob of red tape between people that wish to display the logo (in ways consistent with the campaign) and Sun.

Maybe you only get to use the logo if you make some sort of hardware that runs Java?

This sort of info needs to be made clear on java.net.

Offline GergisKhan

Junior Member




"C8 H10 N4 O2"


« Reply #27 - Posted 2003-06-19 17:02:34 »

Still working on it.  The biggest confusion as I see it is the definitionof licensee, which so far SEEMS to involve the actual source code to Java.  Which, for 99% of us, is irrelevant... so .... I'm not sure yet.

gK

"Go.  Teach them not to mess with us."
          -- Cao Cao, Dynasty Warriors 3
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