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  Java people, don't waste your time!  (Read 14441 times)
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Offline Jacko

Junior Devvie





« Reply #30 - Posted 2002-12-22 00:29:47 »

I have an 800 Duron. Someone else has a 2 GHz Pentium.

What I would like to see from java is that it can actually optimize the byte code that is is given to the machine it is running on. JIT compiling can give potentially give you this, why are we so unsure that Java(tm) cant?
Offline markuskidd

Junior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #31 - Posted 2002-12-22 00:31:37 »

I think the difference is that static compilation is within reach (through GCJ, for example) of most people here, while improving the JVM is an abstraction that has frusterated many in this community who *have* tried.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #32 - Posted 2002-12-22 10:04:43 »

Yes, fundamentally when people talk about the advantages of the JIT technique the words "potentially" and "theoretically" are still being used regularly.

Sun's server VM is quite fast but rather dissappointingly has turned out to be no faster than Jet for every application I've tried (and specifically, for games). And of course Jet suffers no warmup time where it runs like a dog.

A lot of Java's supposed performance comes from garbage collection cleverness, and Jet does rather less of this than the Sun VMs because it's now got escape analysis. And of course, if the Jet team use a very similar GC technique to the Sun VM then they've already clawed that whole advantage away from the JIT and it's purely down to how well you can optimise chunks of code. Right now it looks like static optimisation with relatively unlimited time to think about it is proving to be as fast or faster than dynamic JITting hotspots, and produces code with no warmup time. The clever OO optimisations that the server VM is doing are more than clawed back by more aggressive static compilation techniques.

Especially for client-side games, where we don't like to produce much garbage due to non-deterministic GC timing, and where we want the fastest code there is, on startup.

I conclude:

1) Leave native compilation to another company, who are good at it, and deserve the business

2) Leave JIT ideas to Sun, who are good at it, and will probably one day manage to get a VM out which performs better than native, but not for a good long while yet

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Pyros

Senior Newbie




Let's make Java games rock !


« Reply #33 - Posted 2002-12-22 20:03:51 »

Quote
You think that a software house will ever use Java for a graphics engine? Have you seen many commercial titles bult entirely on Java 1.4? Not in a milion years.


Hi trent, seen this?

http://www.2nu.com/Wayne/SplattJava/SplattJava480x300.html

Add two years and another thousand gigahertz to the machina - still think no-can-do?

Offline java

Senior Newbie




All games rock!


« Reply #34 - Posted 2002-12-23 11:28:07 »

Quote


Hi trent, seen this?

http://www.2nu.com/Wayne/SplattJava/SplattJava480x300.html

Add two years and another thousand gigahertz to the machina - still think no-can-do?


As nice as it looks, it technically dated. It's a raycaster. As i mentioned in another thread, i would like to see something like the quake (even quake1 would be fine) engine to be implemented in Java.
The closest thing i could find was this:
http://www.jpct.net/download/jpctdemo.zip

...but that's not using hardware acceleration.
Offline Woz

Senior Newbie




A Troll who lives in a hole


« Reply #35 - Posted 2002-12-23 12:04:00 »

Quake in Java was done a long time ago, JQuake(1997), unfortunately ID stamped on it.

This turned into Frag Island, which stopped working years ago, I presume the models and maps were removed, but I don't know why - it might have just been the server people doing this accidentally. But I doubt the server side scripts/java are running even if the maps & models were replaced.

Frag Island was written by 2 very good coders from the ST/Amiga days, Nicolas Thisell & Andreas Suurkuusk (Or simply Nik & Jas).

However I do remember having one or two goes on it, unfortunately the multiplayer system had been broken so I just wondered around the map a few times.

Was it as good as the original ID Quake engine?

Yes although they obviously cut some corners.

The question is why has no one continued writing in Java "products" of this sort.

A lot of it stems from the fact that the (European) demo crews abandoned Java a long time ago, simply because Sun obviously had no intention of fixing the problems with it. (And still don't.)

Technology also plays its part, you want to fuss about writing software renders or enjoy the life of 3D hardware - to which we already know the answer!

Try doing a search for "Digital Nerds" (Look out for "Flow" and "Apex") or "Yodel"s "I". Mostly they only work in IE with M$ JVM's.

But again they are rather old and are DEMOS not games (they are no longer the same thing). They are also just conversion of work done on the Amiga (as anyone will know if they have seen Scoopex's Super Auto Drome or 1000%).

------
Woz.


Offline jpwinne

Innocent Bystander




Java games rock!


« Reply #36 - Posted 2002-12-24 08:16:26 »

The reason why there are not a lot of big games programmed in Java is not so much performance, but lies in the fact that Microsoft pretty much owns the gaming PC industry (and in the near feature they seem to be winning yet another console war, Sega allready lost it, Nintendo will be next).

Everybody who works with linux, still has a dual boot machine just in order to play games.

So why would gaming companies worry about multiplatform games ?

Having said that, programming small games in Java can be a lot of fun, but it probably won't make you rich ...

I have enjoyed writing a small game myself and it rocks, at least if you have some friends to play it against ...
(http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~jpwinne/bombman.html)

Don't get me wrong, I AM a Java lover. But the world is allready owned by Bill.

jpwinne
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #37 - Posted 2002-12-24 09:01:12 »

Bah! Defeatist!

I'm clawing my bit of the world back from Bill. Like a nation grown fat and complacent he can't look after his borders enough. The Sacking of Redmond will go down in history one day, and I'm one of the hairy barbarians.

*hic*

Cas Smiley

Offline Themroc

Junior Devvie





« Reply #38 - Posted 2002-12-24 09:07:03 »

51.de
I just read that a judge ordered M$ to ship the Sun-JVM with Windows. Sure M$ will fight that decision, but it is cool nevertheless.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28678.html
Offline Golthar

Junior Devvie




;)


« Reply #39 - Posted 2002-12-24 09:24:39 »

Hence see my post in this forum  Grin

come visit us: http://www.otf1337.com
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline killingtime

Senior Newbie




Humm


« Reply #40 - Posted 2003-01-02 22:49:18 »

Quote
The reason why there are not a lot of big games programmed in Java is not so much performance, but lies in the fact that Microsoft pretty much owns the gaming PC industry (and in the near feature they seem to be winning yet another console war, Sega allready lost it, Nintendo will be next).


I don't think that is it at all. First of the X-box is a long way off the PS2 in terms of sales and boxes out there. It is neck and neck with the GameCube. As for the PC sure Windows is pretty much an exclusive market but that doesn't stop people using OpenGL rather than D3D as their 3D envoriment of choice. Which id still selling engines left, right and centre, I don't see that changing any time soon.

I think the biggest problem is that no one uses Java. Take it from a developers perspective, you've got tons of libraries you've developed over the years for C/C++, you have a team that probably codes almost exclusively in that language and if you wanted to port to a console then you'd want to keep it in C/C++ to make the port easier (depending on the console). New game development companies might consider Java. Certainly Epic tried with Unreal years ago when java first came out, they weren't impressed with the performance (though with Java 1.1 that's no big surprise). I would like to see them have another go with it now.

Sony certainly seem to have an interest in Java for something involving 3D, since they are involved (though not that actively) in most JCP involving anything with 3D in it.
Offline Pyros

Senior Newbie




Let's make Java games rock !


« Reply #41 - Posted 2003-01-03 06:59:04 »

Quote
As nice as it looks, it technically dated.


Don't look at things so narrowly. Yes, for a Quake clone it would be an outdated engine. For an online RPG client it would be great.
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #42 - Posted 2003-01-03 07:19:58 »

Quote
Certainly Epic tried with Unreal years ago when java first came out, they weren't impressed with the performance (though with Java 1.1 that's no big surprise). I would like to see them have another go with it now.


They tried java only for scripting. It failed for them because they used threads for all moving objects (I remember them talking about "java's inefficiency in handling hundreds of threads simultaneously". Which seems a rediculous amount of threads to me anyway). They replaced it with their own 'UnrealScript', which has many similarities with java but they 'simulate' threads instead and made it simpler and added some game-specific features to the language.
The point is, UnrealScript is not faster than java 1.1 at all (I'd say it's a fair bit slower), it's just more a language tweaked for their needs.
I don't think they'll ever try java again because UnrealScript serves them perfectly well so there's no point.

Greetings,
Erik

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 429
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #43 - Posted 2003-01-03 10:55:47 »

Shit, it's bad enough with n00bs in here trying to use threads to do all sorts of bollocks without an actual admission by a "professional" games outfit trying to pull the same stupid stunt. If they were that inept it's pretty remarkable they actually managed to finish Unreal. (Which was a boring game in my opinion, although the engine itself was pleasant)

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #44 - Posted 2003-01-03 13:03:30 »

True, Unreal was very boring (just 'interactive eyecandy', really) , but I had lots of fun with the engine (UnrealScript was actually my introduction to OO) and the editor totally rocks.
The engine would have been way better when they would have pulled it off to use java. Now, unrealscript is limited to code that (I quote from the official docs) "should be idle most of the time" because of it's lack of speed and power.
I think if there was an engine with a scenegraph, physics, sound, networking etc. written using LWJGL or whatever (or maybe even integrated in it?), it would beat the Unreal engine for sure in terms of flexibility, power and probably even speed.
I also think LWJGL is a good starting point because I like the idea that it isn't afraid of going native when it helps.

Erik

Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Devvie




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #45 - Posted 2003-01-26 15:54:34 »

I don't really care a lots about this discussion, but if SUN would pull its head out of its ass and add OpenGL as build in feature of java AND create window toolkit based on OpenGL, the world would be saved.

I mean, object oriented approach to opengl, my pants are already creamed.

I know it's not going to happen, but... untill then I must stick with gl4java, and perhaps lwgl after it matures a little bit.

I mean total linux support would be enough to get me to lwgl.
Offline elias

Senior Devvie





« Reply #46 - Posted 2003-01-26 16:51:21 »

Total linux support? Only Controllers are missing from the linux version afaik, and that's not even a part of gl4java. So what are you missing?

- elias

Offline PlanetMongo

Senior Newbie




Follow the yellow line.  Don't EAT the yellow line


« Reply #47 - Posted 2003-01-26 19:04:36 »

Actually, one of the big draws to Java for me, personally, is the cross-platform development.  The other is the reduced development time (focus more on the GAME, not the implementation).  

With the advent of MMORPG's, Java has, IMHO, great potential.  When your game can run on MacOSX, Windows, Linux, Solaris, etc, that's that many more potential subscribers to your game.  Sure, Windows has millions of more users than the rest combined, but I'd say Linux and MacOS both have more desirable marketing potentials.  You might have to make concessions with 3D related stuff, I don't know.  Personally, I don't think a great MMORPG is defined by it's graphics, anyway.  I'd love to see a Tales of Destiny styled MMORPG in an EQ kinda game, but maybe that's just me (and now you know what I want to work towards).  The point is, if making a playable game available to another 10 million users by default, rather than putting in a lengthy porting process, empty promises, slipping ship-dates, etc, you could have a working game, shipping, all in one box, for a larger target audience.. Then you get 3. Profit somewhere in there.  Smiley   And don't forget the mobile market is exploding right now, make a stripped down/playable version for those and...

(BTW, I'm speaking as an Everquest addict who just reinstalled last week and has already spent an average of 5 hours a day every day playing again after an 8 month layoff... :: sigh ::  At least they made the game windowable so I can have TextPad open and do some basic java development whilst my char heals.. Smiley ).


If you were me, you'd be good lookin - six string samurai
Offline elias

Senior Devvie





« Reply #48 - Posted 2003-01-26 19:27:36 »

Quote
 At least they made the game windowable so I can have TextPad open and do some basic java development whilst my char heals.. Smiley ).



Did you hear that Cas? We want windowed mode in our games!

- elias Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #49 - Posted 2003-01-26 20:52:29 »

Quote

(BTW, I'm speaking as an Everquest addict who just reinstalled last week and has already spent an average of 5 hours a day every day playing again after an 8 month layoff... :: sigh ::  At least they made the game windowable so I can have TextPad open and do some basic java development whilst my char heals.. Smiley ).


Bah, head over to http://progressquest.com/ and start playing PQ instead. All the excitment of a MMORPG, for free, and it leaves you free to have a Real Life as well Wink I've been playing for several months none stop now..

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline PlanetMongo

Senior Newbie




Follow the yellow line.  Don't EAT the yellow line


« Reply #50 - Posted 2003-01-26 21:34:14 »

LOL.. I've played with that before.  Smiley  It's about as mindless, and if you fire up a nice IRC client, you get the community, as well.  Smiley  

But I'll still play EQ.  I'm actually working on my main desktop here at my other (casual) job where I can play EQ for 12 hours on the clock.  How F'ing cool is that?  Smiley

I just can't get the damn driver for this stupid linksys card and ftp.linksys.com keeps rejecting connections so I can't download them.  GRRRR.  And the brand-new PCMCIA network card is 32 bit, whereas my PCMCIA adaptor card is.. 16-bit ISA.  double GRRR!  (You have increased your skill in GRRR (26)!)

Oh well, I should really be digging into these books, anyway.


If you were me, you'd be good lookin - six string samurai
Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Devvie




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #51 - Posted 2003-01-27 08:40:06 »

Uh Linux support.. uh what? Mayhaps I shall go pull my own head out of my ass.

What about solaris?
Offline elias

Senior Devvie





« Reply #52 - Posted 2003-01-27 08:51:12 »

Solaris? In theory yes, but I haven't got a solaris box to test on. The port should be easy enough, though. Does gl4java support solaris?

- elias

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #53 - Posted 2003-01-27 09:56:55 »

Does Solaris allow HW access? - I seem to recall that it doesn't - but might be some time I heard that, and like Captain-Goatse(x  Tongue) is with lwjgl , I'm not that up to date with regards to Solaris..

Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Devvie




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #54 - Posted 2003-01-27 15:47:27 »

It is all the same to me. I'm just content creator. Right now it seems to be that I am slowly drifting to the evil route of LWGL, since even though no matter how much I like GL4Java, I can't stand the way it has been put together. Besides it is not that hard to port, everything is basically the same, except little easier what I looked at the docs.

One feature, which I like about GL4Java is the windowed mode feature, since switching constantly display modes gets on my nerves. You know the sound the monitor makes and my development monitor is like 5 years old... =(

Now before I start to port, can someone tell me is it possible to do without using the LWGL math classes?

I'd really like to deal directly with float arrays instead of lwgl matrix classes? I was looking through doc and

getFloatv

public void getFloatv(int pname,
                     int params)

gives ints??
Offline PlanetMongo

Senior Newbie




Follow the yellow line.  Don't EAT the yellow line


« Reply #55 - Posted 2003-01-27 16:31:45 »

Quote


You know the sound the monitor makes and my development monitor is like 5 years old... =(



You mean the one that makes you reflexively look away from the monitor in case it decides to blow up in your face?  No "electronics device" should ever emit that kind of mechanical sounding noise.  Tongue



If you were me, you'd be good lookin - six string samurai
Offline elias

Senior Devvie





« Reply #56 - Posted 2003-01-27 16:32:44 »

The buffer->int stuf is as fundamental to lwjgl as it is confusing to lwjgl newcomers. The int is in fact a pointer address to a buffer that you specified. To fetch an address for a _direct_ buffer, do a Sys.getDirectBufferAddress() on it. You can do without the lwjgl math routines perfectly well.

btw, windowed mode is included in lwjgl, although not as nice as in gl4java (yet).

- elias

Offline Captain-Goatse

Junior Devvie




I suck at teh 2D. XBOX IS BIG LOL!111


« Reply #57 - Posted 2003-01-27 16:44:25 »

Ok, thanks. I seems to be alright. I'll give it a shot, since you guys seem to be a lot more active than the GL4Java guys.

I guess it is just matter of style. I seems to be pretty clear and easy so I'll go ahead.
Offline killingtime

Senior Newbie




Humm


« Reply #58 - Posted 2003-01-28 08:19:21 »

Quote
Ok, thanks. I seems to be alright. I'll give it a shot, since you guys seem to be a lot more active than the GL4Java guys.


So now you are choosing your API based on how good looking the programmers are. What is this world comming to?  Grin
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #59 - Posted 2003-01-28 09:10:46 »

Quote

... to be a lot more active than the GL4Java guys.


active not attractive, though I am sure it is a valid statement  Cool

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