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Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #30 - Posted 2005-05-16 10:45:04 »

Quote
Sigh. Just sometimes I'd be nice to be proved wrong about the forum upgrade. It's Duke Nukem Forever all over again...



Now now, to be fair, the forums did get set up.  Not my fault that here are some bugs that need to be worked out.  I COULD just turn on the new boards, have you type away, and just start the other 3 sections over again, but I want to get all of the data moved, not just part of it.

-Chris

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #31 - Posted 2005-05-16 10:51:19 »

All, the new forums have been taken out of Maintenance mode so you can wander them.

NOTE: ALL POSTS MADE TO THE NEW BOARD WILL BE PURGED DURING THE FINAL UPDATE!!!!!

I opened them so you could see the new board is all.

http://192.18.37.44/yabbse/index.php

-Chris

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #32 - Posted 2005-05-16 10:59:23 »

looks great! - and performs muuuch better than current. Particularly my most needed function 'posts since last visit'

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #33 - Posted 2005-05-16 11:02:21 »

my signature got b0rked though - but I can fix that manually once we're go.

Has anything been decided for moderators? - specifically global moderators that can nuke spam ? Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 749
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #34 - Posted 2005-05-16 11:21:02 »

My private-messages are doubled.
Some thread-replies are doubled.

If it was:
r1,r2,r3,r4

it's now:
r1,r2,r3,r4,r1,r2,r3,r4

where 'rN' = reply #n

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #35 - Posted 2005-05-16 11:41:38 »

Quote
My private-messages are doubled.
Some thread-replies are doubled.

If it was:
r1,r2,r3,r4

it's now:
r1,r2,r3,r4,r1,r2,r3,r4

where 'rN' = reply #n


I already mentioned this in an earlier post.  It's a minor thing to fix and will be fixed for the final "go live"

-Chris

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #36 - Posted 2005-05-16 11:57:56 »

Some requests:

1. SMF allows nested categories, so make use of them: have each category have a link to it's parent. Right now, there are no navigation links (in this theme), there's just the (too small) "home" button.

Copy/paste some of the nav link stuff from the default theme template, e.g. putting a much bigger link to the main forum index. But sub-category navigation would be much cooler Smiley

2. Fix the tabbing order on the poll-creation page! Just like YABB, it has the same damn bug whereby you CANNOT tab between the fields. Stupid sucky morons who can't write HTML pages properly <grumble mutter grumble/>

3. Any chance we can get proper polls? Ones where e.g. the creator can zero JUST ONE of the options? Surely SMF is much better than YABB in this respect?

4. Create "community moderators" group + private board, where the mods can discuss things, e.g. policies on what to do if someone may/may not be abusing the board.

5. Create an "Announcements" board - this is  a feature of SMF to push critical information to users.

6. Add the "only posts since my last visit" link somewhere obvious (I couldn't find it, but know that SMF does it)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #37 - Posted 2005-05-16 12:43:07 »

Quote
6. Add the "only posts since my last visit" link somewhere obvious (I couldn't find it, but know that SMF does it)

it's the 3rd line on the page, when you have logged in. Makes perfect sense to me.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #38 - Posted 2005-05-16 14:58:10 »

Quote

it's the 3rd line on the page, when you have logged in. Makes perfect sense to me.



Hidden in plain site Wink. I don't think I could bear it if that's intentionally there - losing > 25% of my screen space to telling me who I am? Um, no thanks. I therefore completely ignored it, automatically (hey, it's the same size and shape as a banner ad Wink).

So, add a 7. Remove the damn annoying big fat profile info from the top of every page. It's HUGE! It's a COMPLETE WASTE OF SPACE! And I hate to think how much space it takes on low-res monitors Sad.

EDIT: in case it wasn't obvious, that's tongue-in-cheek. But I am serious that the thing is a waste of space....

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 122
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #39 - Posted 2005-05-16 15:37:30 »

Theres a little button with an arrow on it that removes your profile from view should you not want it there. (on the left of the home button)

Kev

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #40 - Posted 2005-05-16 15:42:12 »

It's alright Matzon, I'll take this one...

Quote
So, add a 7. Remove the damn annoying big fat profile info from the top of every page. It's HUGE! It's a COMPLETE WASTE OF SPACE! And I hate to think how much space it takes on low-res monitors Sad.

EDIT: in case it wasn't obvious, that's tongue-in-cheek. But I am serious that the thing is a waste of space....


It scrolls with the page, so no space will be lost on a low-res monitor at all.  Anyway, it's smaller than the header we have on our current software, and I don't remember you complaining about that.  I think it's very useful to have the page load time displayed at the top of each page, and the two search-type links it provides are going to be very handy indeed.  I vote to leave it there.

(Oh, and by the way, press the little up arrow in the dark gray nav bar and it goes away.)


Okay, who's up for responding to Blah's next complaint?  I think we should take it in turns... Grin


EDIT: Beaten to the punch by Kev Wink

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline sunet2000

Senior Newbie




I want my mumart account back!


« Reply #41 - Posted 2005-05-18 11:36:17 »

Not sure if this is related to the new server, but I changed the email address on my account (mumart) last night, and I didn't receive the email containing my new password.

The "forgot password" button also fails to send anything out. The new email address in my profile is correct.

As a result I'm locked out of my account Sad

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #42 - Posted 2005-05-18 14:20:08 »

Quote

It scrolls with the page, so no space will be lost on a low-res monitor at all.


So let's just all make sites with a 800x768 gif at the top, because "you can scroll down to see the real page". Hmm.

Quote

 Anyway, it's smaller than the header we have on our current software, and I don't remember you complaining about that.


This one was only temporary Tongue. And there were bigger problems to worry about (like, no email notification, no posts-since-last-visit, no moderators for several categories, etc).

Quote

I think it's very useful to have the page load time displayed at the top of each page


I don't see any search boxes, and page load time is conventionally part of the footer (nearly everyone does that). It's the least important piece of information on the page, so it goes last Smiley.

Quote

(Oh, and by the way, press the little up arrow in the dark gray nav bar and it goes away.)


Great, that solves the problem, but it needs to be made into a button with some text on it so that it's more obvious what it does.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline woogley
« Reply #43 - Posted 2005-05-18 18:33:06 »

Quote

Great, that solves the problem, but it needs to be made into a button with some text on it so that it's more obvious what it does.


eh I think you are bit too picky blah, all you gotta do is hover your mouse over the image (which most people do) and it CLEARLY says "Shrink or expand the header"

ALT text is enough for me. If every button had a full-text descriptions on it, you'd REALLY be wasting space (something you were complaning about recently?) ...
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #44 - Posted 2005-05-18 18:47:39 »

Agreed, as a test I went to a computer phobic friend of mine and showed him the site. I asked him to shrink the header and without hesitation he hit the arrow and it went away. I think Blah's bitch mode is just turned up to high again.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #45 - Posted 2005-05-18 21:39:37 »

Quote

eh I think you are bit too picky blah, all you gotta do is hover your mouse over the image (which most people do) and it CLEARLY says "Shrink or expand the header"


The majority of websites do not use alt text. Hence, the majority of people do not even know it exists as a feature. Of course it's good that it works, but you can't excuse a lack of explanation by the presence of a feature most people don't expect to work (or don't even know about).

Worse, you'd be breaking most of the accepted "rules" of UI design (including the HTML spec itself, IIRC) to have sites that could only be navigated using the alt-text.

Quote

ALT text is enough for me. If every button had a full-text descriptions on it, you'd REALLY be wasting space (something you were complaning about recently?) ...


Ah, come on, be sensible. Assume I was being vaguely intelligent, and that I was thinking of something in the same style as *all the other buttons in that navbar* - i.e. a one/two word button.

Or ... why not get rid of all of them and just use minute icons for each?

I must say I don't understand why people are so strongly against pointing out things in the site that could be improved. I'd at least have some respect for responses that gave some *actual* positive reason for things being the way they are, but so far it just seems I get needlessly attacked for pointing out simple factual bad-UI issues.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #46 - Posted 2005-05-18 21:41:57 »

Quote
Agreed, as a test I went to a computer phobic friend of mine and showed him the site. I asked him to shrink the header and without hesitation he hit the arrow and it went away. I think Blah's bitch mode is just turned up to high again.


Without trying to be offensive, that's a stereotypical crap programmer response to UI issues - "it worked OK for one person, so that means it's fine for everyone on the planet". That attitude is responsible for a large proportion of the poor, unpleasant, hard to use UI's that we have to put up with as computer users.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #47 - Posted 2005-05-18 22:01:59 »

Crap programmer response, heh? No, just providing a counter example using someone who hates using computers. He had no problem with it. You sure love to throw around the "shitty programmer" tag... glass houses man. Check in when JGF isn't a steaming pile.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline woogley
« Reply #48 - Posted 2005-05-19 01:12:54 »

Quote

The majority of websites do not use alt text. Hence, the majority of people do not even know it exists as a feature.


wrong, wrong, WRONG. 90% (or even more) of the sites I visit use alt text particuarly on image links. People know it's there.

Quote

Of course it's good that it works, but you can't excuse a lack of explanation by the presence of a feature most people don't expect to work (or don't even know about).


Whether people know about it or not (which most do), what else were you guessing the arrow was for? It wasn't there to say "hey, look up this way!"

Quote

Worse, you'd be breaking most of the accepted "rules" of UI design (including the HTML spec itself, IIRC) to have sites that could only be navigated using the alt-text.


Somebody help me, every windowing system I've used uses ARROWS instead of TEXT for scrollbars! As far as "rules" are concerned, if you knew anything about Web standards, XHTML 1.0 Transitional (and most other forms of web markup), which your site's DOCTYPE claims to support, _requires_ an ALT attribute on images. But your site hasn't been known to follow standards (yet you blame IE for rendering it wrong [in the past] before you even bother becoming standards compliant)

Quote

I get needlessly attacked for pointing out simple factual bad-UI issues.


Well, you needlessly attack other people who DARE use an applet and not webstart. Besides, so far the arrow is a "simple factual bad-UI issue" to _you_

I've heard something recently that you're trying to have the "state of mind" as a brand-new user to see how people will "like" a site. And I guess that can be understandable (especially with a site that belongs to you and which is under your complete control), but the arrow seems to be obvious to everybody, including Mojo's anti-computer friend. Maybe you're thinking TOO newbieish, eh? Roll Eyes
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #49 - Posted 2005-05-19 06:47:07 »

I put ALTs on all the graphics on my websites some time ago.  It helps the blind navigate the web.

Under UK law you are obliged to provide access to the disabled.  While this mostly applies to physical access in shops and public places, it also applies to online navigation.  The law applies to personal websites as well as commercial ones.

This means that if you hyperlink an image, or use an imagemap, then an alternative means of navigation must also be provided.

For hyperlinked images, the easiest solution is to use ALT.  This particularly applies to buttons drawn as icons.  If you use imagemaps, then alternative menu navigation should be provided.

It's probably a good idea to provide ALTs for pictures supporting news items to be on the safe side.  Graphics which just adds 'prettyness' but has no functional use doesn't need ALTs.

In my view the function of the arrow is not immediately obvious, but I would find it fairly quickly when experimenting with the new forum UI.  In general I like the new layout.

I wouldn't let Blah*3's criticism get to you, as hard over opinions are his specialty.  My solution is to listen, decide whether there is a valid point being made, state ones own view & move on.  Not always easy in real life though Wink I also think that while Blah's tactics can be a useful tool to get ones own way, overuse results in people ignoring you when there's something important to say.  It's the old Peter & the Wolf story.

* Ducks for cover *

Alan  

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 122
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #50 - Posted 2005-05-19 07:40:41 »

Lock the thread time?

Kev

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #51 - Posted 2005-05-19 10:22:27 »

Quote

wrong, wrong, WRONG. 90% (or even more) of the sites I visit use alt text particuarly on image links. People know it's there.


Shrug. Fair enough, it's just that that is not my experience, and the regular web surveys on accessibility of mainstream sites (corporate and retail) tend to repeatedly show up poor accessibilty and poor adherence to W3C guidelines. Until recently (maybe even now?) there were still several major UK banks who had hardcoded their sites to disconnect you if you were not using MSIE.

I run a fair number of sites through the validators, and very few validate.

Quote

Whether people know about it or not (which most do), what else were you guessing the arrow was for? It wasn't there to say "hey, look up this way!"


Well, you say that, but ... my initial thought was that it wasn't even a button, since all the other things had words on them. It's common to do this on navbars - have a leading icon of some kind - especially on "cool" sites (those with huge amounts of pixelart in the design).

Quote

Somebody help me, every windowing system I've used uses ARROWS instead of TEXT for scrollbars!


Except it's not even vaguely like a scrollbar Huh

Quote

As far as "rules" are concerned, if you knew anything about Web standards, XHTML 1.0 Transitional (and most other forms of web markup), which your site's DOCTYPE claims to support, _requires_ an ALT attribute on images.


That I develop an unrelated site that *has not yet been launched* and which has many imperfections does not make me wrong.  You shouldn't try not to attack something unrelated in order to make a point; it tends to make you look as though you have no leg to stand on.

Quote

But your site hasn't been known to follow standards (yet you blame IE for rendering it wrong [in the past] before you even bother becoming standards compliant)


I have explained this to you before. MSIE is not only badly broken *but they have publicly admitted this*. Look around the MS.com KB and you will find several entries documenting such things as "why we decided not to implement forms the way that the standard says we must" (paraphrase)).

There are entire websites devoted to "what MSIE doesn't render that it must, and how you can workaround some of these bugs". JFGoogleFI.

You can research this yourself and then you'd know *why* it is essential for JGF to *lie* about the HTML it is serving. I'll let you into the secret Wink - MSIE executes a different code path depending upon which DOCTYPE declaration is at the head of the HTML page. All the renderers are broken. One of them is less broken than the others (again, this is "officially" documented by MS on their own websites - it's all there for you to find out yourself!). To enable people with MSIE to be able to use the site, it is necessary to put a particular doctype that causes the least-broken renderer to be used to render the page.

Quote

Well, you needlessly attack other people who DARE use an applet and not webstart.


I don't expect people to be happy about that, no. But I believe that my extremism here has helped a great deal to get people using webstart almost exclusively. If you were around these forums long enough you'd see that almost no-one used to use it and then in a short space of time we went to everyone using it.

Quote

Maybe you're thinking TOO newbieish, eh? Roll Eyes


Sure, that could be it Smiley. And it's up to ChrisM et al to make that decision. I'm just pointing out what could be better or is wrong, and why, so that someone else can decide whether to act on it or not.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline woogley
« Reply #52 - Posted 2005-05-19 12:19:00 »

Quote

That I develop an unrelated site that *has not yet been launched* and which has many imperfections does not make me wrong.  You shouldn't try not to attack something unrelated in order to make a point; it tends to make you look as though you have no leg to stand on.


I have a leg to stand on, it was an example of another rather pointless rant. I know about the different render modes (I too use standards-compliance mode to find a medium between Trident and Gecko) but that doesn't mean IE's less-broken renderer will display "more correctly" if you still use broken markup

Quote

If you were around these forums long enough you'd see that almost no-one used to use it and then in a short space of time we went to everyone using it.


I was here long enough for that (been silent-browsing for a few years Wink) and you're right you DID influence a great number of people (maybe even me some seeing as I have a "preference" [not a demand] for webstart). The point is the extremism you admit to could be cut down a notch as some people are as strongly-opnioned as you are (particuarly new users who happen to be sharing their game in applet form and expect feedback on their _game_ rather than what they released the game with). I've seen as many applet reformers as I have seen webstart reformers (for some odd reason there's some people out there determined to make Java applets faster and cleaner than Flash applets).

Either way yes it is up to Chris in the end, and it isn't worth wasting more space on this thread to exchange stubborn opinions that really have hardly anything to do with the new forum Wink
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #53 - Posted 2005-05-22 13:22:18 »

Hey all, just checking in after E3.  Thanks for the suggestions.  Just remember, you won't be able to please everyone with everything and I know that.  In the end, it is up to me to find a site format that serves most of the needs of the community and I happen to like the new forum layout.  However, there will be a new theme layout that matches the colors of the Java.Net stuff soon and that will chang the look a bit.  But, I am going to keep the info box at the top as there will be more information added to it over time (e.g. chat invites, shout box messages, etc.) and need a place that is specific to each user.  If you don't like it, shut it off.

Also, WRT the final change over.  There have been 4 foums that did not port correctly due to a bad conversion utility.  The forums are: General News, LWJGL, JME and Xith3D.  As you can see, I did not want these boards to go live without having these in the final boards, so I postponed the final go-live.  The only real work around for this is to move the threads over to newly named boards (you may have already noticed this with the News boards) and it will take me a few days to do this.  I am back at corporate for part of next week and SHOULD have them moved over by the end of the week.  After that, these boards will be frozen and the final boards turned on.

Hope that clears stuff up for you.

Cheers!

-Chris

Online kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 75
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #54 - Posted 2005-05-22 14:31:51 »

Quote
However, there will be a new theme layout that matches the colors of the Java.Net stuff soon

-Chris



OH NO, please not the corparate dull blue!

These are gaming boards we need something fun and attactive.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #55 - Posted 2005-05-27 00:18:33 »

Quote
Sigh. Just sometimes I'd be nice to be proved wrong about the forum upgrade. It's Duke Nukem Forever all over again...

*cough*.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #56 - Posted 2005-05-27 03:08:02 »

Just for the log... it's title text not alt text. Alt text *isn't* displayed as a tooltip... only IE does that (WRONG!). Alt text is supposed to be shown, when the image isn't displayed for one reason or another and that's it's only purpose.

So if something is explained in alt texts... the user only need to right click the image... and click on properties... Roll Eyes

Quote
Agreed, as a test I went to a computer phobic friend of mine and showed him the site. I asked him to shrink the header and without hesitation he hit the arrow and it went away. I think Blah's bitch mode is just turned up to high again.


So, you told him that there is a way to shrink the header... after he knew that he was able to search for something like that... and he even found it... wow...

Well, that's worth nothing Smiley

I saw the icon... it's pointing upwards. That's the same thing you see for "back to top"... I wondered what it does up there, but then I just ignored it. I didn't bother moving my mouse on top of it... because it's "obviously" a back to top thing.

"Dude, that header thing is annoying" , I thought and scrolled down Wink

Intuitive stuff isn't logical... it just matches a known pattern. That's of course bad voodoo/witchcraft and a lot of guesswork... you just cannot serve all possible backgrounds equally well. For me some upward pointing thing on a website is just a "back to top"-anchor link, because in 99.9999% of the cases it's just that.

IMO it would be better to remove this toy functionallity alltogether... and the avatar, too. And the text stuff should be always there in a more compact (eg 2 line) fashion.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #57 - Posted 2005-05-27 16:11:41 »

Well, fortunately, the page we are arguing about is aimed towards developers, who should be smarter than the average user...

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #58 - Posted 2005-05-27 22:01:55 »

Mojomonkey, read again what I wrote. There is no reason for beeing insulting.

Maybe you just learned to ignore the look of icons completely for one reason or another. Well, that's your background and not mine (or everyone's).

It just isn't like everyone looks at things the way you do and it's "dangerous" to assume that. If you're making guis or web pages or some other kind of user interface, you have to accept that. It also doesn't has anything to do with beeing smart or stupid. It doesn't matter... everyone just applies what he/she has learned in the past and it either fits or it doesn't. It's unlikely that you get em all therefore the best thing you can do is trying to reach the majority.

You just scan pages different than I do - that's all. I didn't even identified the different parts of that menu bar. Some globe... "home"... a question mark... "search". Just a short glance and I knew it was that usual menu thingy... nothing to see there and I moved (my eyes) along. A half second later (after the page was loaded) I was already scrolling down for taking a look at the structure (I wanted to see if something changed). I looked at the font, colors and at the stuff at the bottom and that was all before I left the page.

I just checked if there is something, which would cause eye cancer (like comic sans), but there wasn't (fortunately Wink). Well, that's everything which I wanted to check. Any real problems with a new forum software take weeks before someone spots em. Eg deleting a thread causes the server to hang for 30 seconds and every thread started in the meantime is empty (It took us years to notice and identify that one).

Oh and don't take Adam's rantage all too personal. He's just enthusiastic and so am I. This board is important for me (it's my favorite one Kiss). So, yea... of course would I like to have it in it's best possible shape.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #59 - Posted 2005-05-28 19:22:33 »

I didn't mean it as an insult. What I was implying is that because this website is aimed at us (developers), we have more familiarity with computer usage, and can learn what icons do what, etc, reasonably quickly. I just felt that the arguments were getting too close to: "My grandma couldn't use it", and I just wanted to point out that it's not aimed for our grandma.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
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2014-05-17 11:13:37

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-15 09:59:54

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-06 15:03:10

Escape Analysis
by Roquen
2014-04-29 22:16:43

Experimental Toys
by Roquen
2014-04-28 13:24:22
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