Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (91)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (581)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (500)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  What VM flags do you want from Webstart  (Read 5075 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Posted 2005-04-29 23:17:21 »

Hi Guys,

We've been approached by the webstart team about telling them what game developers need from Webstart.  Out of that discussion came a desire for the list of VM flags you feel you need to be able to set.

Note that while 'all of them' is AN answer, it isn't the answer im looking for.  Thats a much bigger can of worms that has to do with security that we are stil lwrestling with.  But if there are any specific flags you found you need that you cant set from Webstart today, this migth be a fast track to getting them added sooner rather then later.

Thanks

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-04-29 23:36:06 »

Howabout an open discussion with them about this stuff, brainstorm some ideas, and we can convey the relative importance/value and they can convey the relative chances of progress.

Any easy question you can ask you (Jeff) already have the answer to in the threads on these forums you've seen come and go bemoaning the parlous state of webstart.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-04-30 00:36:44 »

Quote

Any easy question you can ask you (Jeff) already have the answer to in the threads on these forums you've seen come and go bemoaning the parlous state of webstart.


Okay, so BBB weighs in as a "I have nothing to say."

If anyone else would like to take advantage of the window of opportunity here I'll watch this topic for a few days.  If noone has anything specific for me to tell them I'll them you are happy with the situation and to scratch VM flags off their improvements list.


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-04-30 11:50:15 »

--- If you don't like rants, skip to the last paragraph. ---

Quote

Okay, so BBB weighs in as a "I have nothing to say."


Why did they come to you in the first place? Is it, perhaps, just maybe, because *I* asked them to? Is it, in fact, that I also at the same time asked them to do a live chat with the people in this community, and they liked the idea, and we liked the idea, and it looked set to go ahead and be a useful discussion?

I suppose next time I'm talking to sun staff about JGO and the GTG (which almost no-one seems to know about) I'll just not mention the GTG.

PS: Go read the GTG forum and look at the GTG's "community board" (which I predicted was going to crash and burn) and the complete lack of explanation or attempt to fix it. "Communication? We've heard of it".

What I really, really, really want (and I know that I'm not alone because I do actually talk to people around here outside the boards too) is to *communicate* with people within Sun. The GTG never actually manages to come through on ANY of their promises or offers to set up communication channels (I've got the emails that Chris sent me for many of these things, all "yes, great, will send it next week!" and stuff like that stretching back 2 years and no results), and now it seems all you can do is block them. I was beginning to wonder why the proposed chat had suddenly gone silent.

Shrug.

/me is from now on going to just talk directly to the sun engineers whose email addresses he has rather than waste more time with this pointless indirection

Anyone who has burning issues to resolve with Sun, feel free to email me (ceo at grexengine.com) and I'll filter them, mulitplex them, try to find appropriate people within sun, and pass your comments on. And if I can't, I'll at least tell you that I'm not going to and give you some suggestions of where to look yourself.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-04-30 13:18:02 »

a bit off topic there BBB. Please stay on this topic of what people want in webstart.

Personally, im not experienced enough in webstart to know what is there and what isn't.

If -Xmx and -Xss aren't there, i would love to see em there if you lovely people at SUN dont mind.

DP

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-04-30 14:22:44 »

Tut tut, "when given an opportunity to feedback, its rarely a good idea to snub it outright" - Rule #4357 of community software development.

Webstart - garbage collection control (incgc, noclassgc), client/server vm. Reading through the possibles.. -Xcheck:jni and -Xprof might be nice from the point of view that most developers here don't have access to all platforms to test on.

Thanks Jeff, please excuse me if any of these are already available and I haven't seent he latest update.

Kev

Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-04-30 15:53:39 »

Client and Server VM flags are available with 1.5 ... but to have the server vm, you first have to download the JDK (not in JRE).

So the servervm is not really here for standard users...

Please include servervm in the standard JRE.

Lilian

Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-04-30 17:18:03 »

is there a way to detect whether someone is using a JDK or a JRE via webstart? I mean if i set to use the server flag, would it fail and print out some sort of message or would it fall back to using the client VM?

DP

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-04-30 22:56:20 »

I want to be able to fine tune any aspect of memory allocation & GC (and I can't see how security would be affected by this so should be fine, yes?). So that's all the flags related to that. But not in the context of gaming; I have no interest in using Webstart for games deployment any more. I'm using it now for a big commercial Swingified client/server offering.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-05-01 05:48:41 »

Quote

Why did they come to you in the first place?


Because we are the Game Technolgoy Group and it is our charter  to be the point of contact and repository of knowledge for everywhere and anywhere Sun touches the game industry.

Thought maybe I should clear that up as perhapse some folks didn't know that., but thats all I intend to say on that subject.

On the Server VM/JRE issue, the webstart guys are ofcourse not the right folks to talk to.  They'd tell you to simply specify JDK in your JNLP.  Beyond that its out of their hands.

I'll go talk to some freinds in the J2SE team though and explore the reasoning on that for you though. My suspicion is that it was a decision made to reduce the JRE download size. :/

On topic: Thanks for the feedback guys.  Ill put together a list from it on Monday to feed back to the webstart folks!

Jeff Kesselman
SUN Senior Software Engineer
Game Server Architect - Game Technologies Group

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-05-01 10:08:59 »

Do they want any feedback about other aspects of deployment?

How about this little gem:

<a href="http://www.java.com/webstart?http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/alienflux.jnlp">Play now!</a>

which would take care of auto-installing webstart if it's not installed and then feed the supplied url to it... thus making installation a single click with no downloads required!

And while you're at it, why not help people download new video drivers too, like games do? See this: http://www.phelios.net/updatevideodrivers.html

If you could get Webstart to sort out video drivers as well that'd be grand. It benefits almost every aspect of a user's system, and I know it's strictly nothing to do with Java but if you want Java to look great instead of merely ... well, a "thing that does stuff"....

Cas Smiley

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-05-01 19:02:15 »

Quote
Do they want any feedback about other aspects of deployment?


Sure, this is all useful stuff to collect, thanks.




Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-05-02 01:16:46 »

As others have said anything to do with tuning GC should be exposed.  (heap size limits, algorithm, that fancy one that we got in Java 5 that specifies the desired maximum GC pause time...)

Also, things like compile thresholds and anything that tunes the performance characteristics of HotSpot could be useful, though perhaps they aren't really needed as the VM seems to be doing a pretty good job.

Most of the other things like enabling certain graphics pipelines I think can already be done with the -D stuff.. but does it happen on time to be effective, when WebStart has already started showing UI bits for splash screens and such?

Also +1 on princec's deployment issues.  Even using WebStart as an INTERNAL update mechanism in a game.  So your game code & data doesn't go in to a shared WebStart cache, but you can use WebStart APIs to update your own private cache.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-05-02 22:16:36 »

Without even reading this thread, I just wanted to say "sorry" for my previous post; I've had a week from hell (*) and over the last 4 days been losing my temper very easily. And then, yesterday, I realised I'd been working every single day since the start of March, when I got back from the GDC, jetlagged, and went straight to work over the weekend. Shrug. The game's shipped now (part 1) and I'm slightly calmer, but I'm going to refrain from forums for a few weeks now, I think. Clearly, if I can't keep a level head when I hit minor frustrations (like in this thread) then I'd be best just to shut up.

(*) My bank manager removed a couple of thousand pounds credit from my bank account "by accident", locking me out of my account and I found out at midnight in the middle of London, about 60 miles from home. Then I spent the following night sleeping on a floor in an empty house, i.e. getting practically no sleep. So I was pretty ratty this weekend.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-05-08 20:41:54 »

As for vm flags, I would like to see the GC tuning flags and the j2d rendering flags included. The latter not stricktly for games, but for example the jws deployed app I made for my work I found that swing doesn't always work on the customer's machine without setting noddraw to true. The latter is not a vm flag I think but a property, but I think setting it in jnlp doesn't work.

EDIT: And yes (although off-topic), pleeease start including the server vm in the JRE. It's just almost 1MB more in the distribution and it's definitely worth it.

Quote
Also, things like compile thresholds and anything that tunes the performance characteristics of HotSpot could be useful, though perhaps they aren't really needed as the VM seems to be doing a pretty good job.


Yes, that too  Smiley

And while you're at it, please remove that horrible "Java Loading..." splash screen. It serves no purpose except putting of people that don't really like java. Better to start java silently without rubbing the "java" brand in the user's nose over and over again. It's just too intrusive. You've never seen or wanted to see "C++ written native executable loading", did you?  Wink

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-05-08 22:34:26 »

Quote

And while you're at it, please remove that horrible "Java Loading..." splash screen. It serves no purpose except putting of people that don't really like java. Better to start java silently without rubbing the "java" brand in the user's nose over and over again. It's just too intrusive. You've never seen or wanted to see "C++ written native executable loading", did you?  Wink


I believe thre actually IS a silent mode now, theya dded a bunch of stuff like that in 1.5, but Ill hand all this abck to the WebStart guys.

Thanks guys!

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-05-09 08:55:26 »

I'd quite like Java to start up as a system service and just deal with requests to execute JNLP and jar files...

Cas Smiley

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 2


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-05-09 10:05:54 »

no thanks! - dont need a ton more programs slurping up my ram!

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2005-05-09 13:48:43 »

Get more RAM then Cheesy

Cas Smiley

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 3



« Reply #19 - Posted 2005-05-09 16:55:12 »

Well, I think that java2d flags should not be ignore because they were considered not secure enough in the first place. I don't understand why running a game with performance flags turned on would be consided unsecure (according to Java 5 docs)? For example how the flag sun.java2d.transaccel would violate security for the user?

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 3



« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-05-10 17:24:42 »

Quote
Well, I think that java2d flags should not be ignore because they were considered not secure enough in the first place. I don't understand why running a game with performance flags turned on would be consided unsecure (according to Java 5 docs)? For example how the flag sun.java2d.transaccel would violate security for the user?

Hello all,
does it make sense? Just want to know since I didn't have a reply.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2005-05-10 21:26:24 »

Quote

Hello all,
does it make sense? Just want to know since I didn't have a reply.



I can't answer the question because you are asking someone who didnt make a particualr decision why that  decision was made. I do not have the data to respond in any intelligent fashion.

I'll put them on the list and see what the web start guys say and report that back, thats the best I can do.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline aNt

Senior Member




AFK


« Reply #22 - Posted 2005-05-18 07:44:30 »

would be nice if i could add more then one location
for a jar search. if a jar cant be found- can find it be
found here, or here etc...

override the crap image that says 'java loading'!. that so
puts people off its a joke.. kill the designer or get one.

loading all the resources then alerting with the sercurity
window... is it me or is that the wrong way around?

flag for the icon alert in the jnlp. this get abit anoying.
every time u download somthing it asks if u want it as
a desktop icon... its cool- but all the time?

overides for all webstart windows and alert look and
feels would be v.nice.. it just doent look cool.. it looks
geeky and cheap...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #23 - Posted 2005-05-18 10:18:41 »

Quote

flag for the icon alert in the jnlp. this get abit anoying.
every time u download somthing it asks if u want it as
a desktop icon... its cool- but all the time?


If you start the webstart client and go to the menus, it's one of the checkbox options already (it's been there for years IIRC).

IIRC it's also a checkbox "never ask me again?" on the "do you want a shortcut?" question - but this might be OS specific (perhaps I'm thinking of OS X instead of windows, or vice versa)

Quote

overides for all webstart windows and alert look and
feels would be v.nice.. it just doent look cool.. it looks
geeky and cheap...


Just using the platform LnF would seem ... the obvious default. On windows and OS X it would instantly look both "normal" and good.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #24 - Posted 2005-05-18 10:59:11 »

Quote

IIRC it's also a checkbox "never ask me again?" on the "do you want a shortcut?" question - but this might be OS specific (perhaps I'm thinking of OS X instead of windows, or vice versa)

It's not on the windows (1.4) webstart one. Sad

IMHO a greater problem with that dialog is its tendancy to "pop-under" and halt the running of the app. Lots of webstart apps look like they've frozen because this dialog is buried beneath all the other open windows (or at least the browser that launched it).

This is made worse by the fact that it doesn't have an entry in the task bar, so you can't even switch to it manually! Often you can only find it by minimisng all your other windows in turn (not minimise all, otherwise it goes to hide somewhere odd). Horrible!

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 70
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #25 - Posted 2005-08-10 04:27:47 »

what i think would be nice is a way to hide the location of my jars, maybe a way to scramble the url, so only webstart can read it and a function to delete the jars after use. although this would be a bullet proof method, it might provide a little protection for software code, images and sounds.
Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #26 - Posted 2005-08-31 11:24:35 »

(bump !)

Any news from the webstart team ?

Lilian

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 3



« Reply #27 - Posted 2005-08-31 14:30:14 »

Quote
Any news from the webstart team ?
And what's the list the planned changes for Mustang?

Offline g666

Junior Member





« Reply #28 - Posted 2005-08-31 16:23:10 »

And while you're at it, please remove that horrible "Java Loading..." splash screen. It serves no purpose except putting of people that don't really like java. Better to start java silently without rubbing the "java" brand in the user's nose over and over again. It's just too intrusive. You've never seen or wanted to see "C++ written native executable loading", did you?  Wink

Yes do that please, why does java always have crappy looking loading screens, it looks they made them in 5 minutes in ms paint. Java LAF also looks incredibly ugly, but at least u can change that urself.

desperately seeking sanity
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 3



« Reply #29 - Posted 2005-10-24 17:00:46 »

Jeff K or someone else, any update on the requested VM flag changes?

Thanks

Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

xsi3rr4x (58 views)
2014-04-15 18:08:23

BurntPizza (56 views)
2014-04-15 03:46:01

UprightPath (69 views)
2014-04-14 17:39:50

UprightPath (52 views)
2014-04-14 17:35:47

Porlus (69 views)
2014-04-14 15:48:38

tom_mai78101 (95 views)
2014-04-10 04:04:31

BurntPizza (155 views)
2014-04-08 23:06:04

tom_mai78101 (250 views)
2014-04-05 13:34:39

trollwarrior1 (206 views)
2014-04-04 12:06:45

CJLetsGame (213 views)
2014-04-01 02:16:10
List of Learning Resources
by SHC
2014-04-18 03:17:39

List of Learning Resources
by Longarmx
2014-04-08 03:14:44

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-05 13:51:37

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:46

Good Examples
by Grunnt
2014-04-03 15:48:37

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:51

Good Examples
by matheus23
2014-04-01 18:40:34

Anonymous/Local/Inner class gotchas
by Roquen
2014-03-11 15:22:30
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!