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  Carmack is trying Java, again  (Read 12058 times)
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Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #60 - Posted 2005-04-02 20:39:38 »

well, considering an Xbox has 64Mb or ram, any game developer using java is going to be hard pushed to do anything reasonable with that...with the VM taking quite a chunk from that.

XBox2, well, might...

DP

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #61 - Posted 2005-04-02 20:42:31 »

64 is OK. I can get my stuff running under 64 without much trouble. The JVM only imposes an 8mb overhead or thereabouts. Still, RAM is cheap as chips these days. Any nextgen console is going to have rather more of the stuff.

Cas Smiley

Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #62 - Posted 2005-04-03 02:39:16 »

http://jaune.sourceforge.net

Java on a gameboy (not gameboy advance).
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #63 - Posted 2005-04-04 03:21:58 »

Now, get that (Java thingy) running on a DS and we're talking.
We have GBA ROM makers at FS, and supposely that will work with the DS system, only the files have to be different.
;-)

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline abcdefg

Junior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #64 - Posted 2005-04-19 06:40:29 »

Okay I dont know much but I do know John Carmack is the steve mchawking of game programming and an equivalent of einstein in the game programming field. He may not completely explain everything he says which gets him in trouble but of everything Ive ever heard him say he has never been wrong. You need to realize when he says java is slow he is looking at it from a assembly low level its not as fast as it could be point of view. He is also generalizing obviously he doesnt mean java in its entirety he meant more parts of java in particular. Do you realize in DOOM 3 he made his own heap that was 2 to 7 times faster than microsofts one that comes with VC 6.0? Back in the day of wolfenstein and Doom you had to actually know assembly, and there were no books you had to know what you were doing space and memory were critical not important. He knows his stuff.
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #65 - Posted 2005-04-19 10:41:41 »

Whether it's a joke or not, abcdefg exemplifies the typical user/developer perspective that is now the larger part of the to-be game developers.  Which is exactly what I was trying to explain in my earliest post here.  Illustrative narratives almost always communicate better!

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 12
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #66 - Posted 2005-04-19 10:59:41 »

You can't compare Carmack to Einstein.. Einstein was just insanely far ahead of his peers.
Comparing him to Hawking is more reasonable, imo. There's no doubt he's one of the best, but external factors[1] have helped build a hype around him, making people think he's far better than he is.

[1] In the case of Hawking, his medical condition. In the case of Carmack, Wolfenstein 3D and Doom.


And he's most certainly been wrong. Wink

Play Minecraft!
Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #67 - Posted 2005-04-19 18:22:54 »

Quote
far ahead of his peers

He, or his wife?
Offline abcdefg

Junior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #68 - Posted 2005-04-19 20:12:06 »

Carmack has been wrong, I think what I meant to say was that for how many tough calls he makes he is wrong a very small amount of times. I think comparison to Einstein is a valid comparison. Its arguable that Carmack was vastly ahead of his peers. The leaps his engines made might have taken many many years if not for him. Just like someone eventually would have probably came up with einsteins theories had einstein not did it. Im not sure about external factors, if you look at his record he has made revolutions every step of the way I would say its a proven track record.
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #69 - Posted 2005-04-19 20:16:24 »

Quote

He, or his wife?

His baby... ;-)
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 12
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #70 - Posted 2005-04-19 21:38:14 »

Quote
if you look at his record he has made revolutions every step of the way I would say its a proven track record.


Commander Keen was not revolutionary new technlogy.
He took something that was already working on consoles and made it work on a pc.

Wolfenstein 3D was not revolutionary new technology.
It was controversial, pretty, fast and fun, and a great game in general, but it was technologically inferior to ultima underworld.

Doom probably was revolutionary new technology. Everything from the netcode to the clever and trendsetting use of BSP trees (some people still bother with it today!) just reeks of brilliance.
Combine that leap in technlogy with an extremely well designed game, and you've got an instant hit.

Quake definitly was revolutionary new technology. Carmack bitch-slapped the entire game industry so hard people are still hurting.
To put it in perspective; Quake was released the same year as Duke Nukem 3D. And Ken Silverman is not a bad programmer.

Quake 2 and Quake 3 were minor updates to the quake engine. They were still the best engines around, but they were not revolutionary or years ahead of the competition.. the Unreal engine comes to mind. It was actually more advanced than the quake 2 engine, but lacked a fun game to go with it.
(To be fair, it did came out one year later than quake 2).

Doom 3 was not revolutionary new technlogy.
Yes, deus ex 2 had bumpmapping, stencil shadows, and proper physics, and was released way before Doom 3 was.

Play Minecraft!
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #71 - Posted 2005-04-20 00:59:03 »

I agree with the Carmack - Hawking comparison.  Comparing Einstein to anyone in computers you'd have to use some one like a Turing or a Bool.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #72 - Posted 2005-04-20 02:08:28 »

Carmack is your average skilled programmer.  Its just that programmers these days suck in general - so there are very few skilled programmers around Smiley.  Carmack is simply well known because the media like the whole story of id's success.  Now he gets special treatment (e.g. from graphics card vendors) so he isn't even on a level playing field with his peers.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #73 - Posted 2005-04-20 07:50:50 »

Quote
for how many tough calls he makes he is wrong a very small amount of times. I think comparison to Einstein is a valid comparison. Its arguable that Carmack was vastly ahead of his peers. The leaps his engines made might have taken many many years if not for him.


*cough* b***s*** *cough*

Carmack never did anything special. His innovations were *no better* than the innovations other people did (look at what Bullfrog were doing at the same time, for an easy example - different tricks, similar effectiveness, often much more impressive results).

Carmack got lucky / hit a sweetspot. He did little special other than take advantage of that weird thing they call "Marketing" and which many of his lapdogs like to pretend doesn't exist. If they were to go and learn what marketing is about, and look what it does in other industries, they might get a Clue and realise that his success says little about his skill. There are others who, if you were being fair, arguably ought to have made much more money and fame out of id than he did, but whose names are forgotten.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #74 - Posted 2005-04-20 07:55:17 »

Quote


Doom probably was revolutionary new technology. Everything from the netcode to the clever and trendsetting use of BSP trees (some people still bother with it today!) just reeks of brilliance.


*choke*

Doom's 3D engine was considerably inferior to UU in many rather important regards - chiefly the fact that it wasn't 3D, wasn't freelook.

Quote

Combine that leap in technlogy with an extremely well designed game, and you've got an instant hit.


But this is the salient fact, of course. The positioning, the promotion, the sales model, the gameplay, etc of UU never came together to produce a marketing phenomenon in the way that Doom did.

Quote

Quake definitly was revolutionary new technology.


You mean, it finally caught up to UU, quite a few years later, and although it had a higher poly count / further clip plane it didn't actually run on a 486 at all, where UU ran on a 386?

Again, IMHO, it was the game + the fame + the rep of Doom&wolf + the sales model + the publisher that came together to make Quake a huge success. It's not fair to say Quake had revolutionary technology.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #75 - Posted 2005-04-20 07:56:47 »

Quote


Doom probably was revolutionary new technology. Everything from the netcode to the clever and trendsetting use of BSP trees (some people still bother with it today!) just reeks of brilliance.


*choke*

Doom's 3D engine was considerably inferior to UU in many rather important regards - chiefly the fact that it wasn't 3D, wasn't freelook.

Quote

Combine that leap in technlogy with an extremely well designed game, and you've got an instant hit.


But this is the salient fact, of course. The positioning, the promotion, the sales model, the gameplay, etc of UU never came together to produce a marketing phenomenon in the way that Doom did.

Quote

Quake definitly was revolutionary new technology.


You mean, it finally caught up to UU, quite a few years later, and although it had a higher poly count / further clip plane it didn't actually run on a 486 at all, where UU ran on a 386?

Again, IMHO, it was the game + the fame + the rep of Doom&wolf + the sales model + the publisher that came together to make Quake a huge success. It's not fair to say Quake had revolutionary technology.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 12
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #76 - Posted 2005-04-20 11:29:00 »

UU was not as good as you seem to think it was.
It had no multiplayer, it had a tilebased map, and didn't let you see more than a few tiles ahead.
And I'm fairly sure it wasn't full freelook as it used flat sprites for the graphics.

Also, please note that I didn't say "doom was the first 3d game", or even "doom was the first textured 3d first person game". I said that the rest of the programming in that game helped set a standard to which people still today try to compare.

Play Minecraft!
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #77 - Posted 2005-04-20 11:34:39 »

One can argue Carmack's ACTUAL achievements anyway you want, it doesn't matter because his critical mass is far greater than any number of posts anyone can make.

It is his perceived collective achievements that give his statements real power to affect other peoples opinions/perspectives.  And, unfortunately, any amount of careful retort from anyone of lower status than him will have little measurable affect.

The best one can hope to do is to help clarify what he said, and what he didn't say, to "correct" his misrepresentations.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline cyberyoyo

Junior Member




Java games funk


« Reply #78 - Posted 2005-04-22 23:04:23 »

Carmack is just a good succesful programmer, I wouldn't call him a genius, nobody needs a cult of personality.
Einstein was a good scientist who happened to be at the right place at the right time and got famous, I wouldn't say he was "miles ahead" of the "competition".
Both of them used ideas that were floating around at the time, scientific breakthroughs never come from a singular person.
There are far more serious intelligent hard-working people than what the media tell us.
Offline EgonOlsen
« Reply #79 - Posted 2005-04-23 11:25:23 »

The point is not that somebody out there may be "better" or "wiser" than JC or that he was "just" using ideas floating around...the point is: He wrote Wolfenstein, Doom, QuakeX and Doom3. Not me, not you, not even the Ultima Underworld guys... Wink And that alone puts him "miles ahead" of the competition. That doesn't mean mean that he's always right of course. But he gets his stuff done and then he talks. A lot of other people just talk and never get anything done.

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #80 - Posted 2005-04-23 18:23:59 »

A lot of people made better engines and i would say games than anything JC did, but his games sold and the others didn't. Thats the main difference.
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #81 - Posted 2005-04-23 18:49:51 »

What better engine?  Keep in mind FPS engine, because otherwise it's not apples to apples.  There was nothing better then the Quake or the Quake 3 engine (at the time they were created), that I know of.

I would agree that the HL2 engine is better then the Doom 3 engine, but only because of it's incredible physics model.  

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #82 - Posted 2005-04-24 00:43:57 »

If we reduce a game engine to one of its features (in JC case graphics) im sure we will find many game engines that were the best at a particular feature at a certain time. JC was not the only one in this situation but he did excelled in optimizing the most critical features to sell games. Im afraid this is what most people don't realize and this is what the guy was talking about when he compared games to porno in a pictoric way of course.
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #83 - Posted 2005-04-24 01:19:29 »

Well, you said there were better engines, but you didn't name any.

I wasn't just thinking about graphics, I was thinking about the whole thing.  

Quake 3 engine for example:

- Incredible rendering engine - best FPS to vert/texture ratio - BSP from the ground up
- Supported wide variety of HW (Open GL ...woot Smiley )
- Very good network code supporting up-to 64 players
- Great moding features - became foundation for MANY other games
- Extremely configruable/tunable with over a hundred options for everything from physics to network frames
- Fluid and responsive control system allowing "tricks"
- Powerful scripting capabilities
- Scriptable shaders
- Advanced light map capabilities

So yes, it was pretty, but it was alot more then that.  It's features reigned supreme until the Halo engine was released for the X-box.

Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #84 - Posted 2005-04-24 03:31:16 »

really? I kinda liked the whole moleculecular designed  Unreal Tournament.

so did a lot of young ppl who wanted to mess about with game programming, considering the scripting sytax beeing more towards java then anything else.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline OverKill

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #85 - Posted 2005-11-04 15:57:08 »

Well it is finally released!
http://www.jamdat.com/JamdatWeb/Catalog/US/en/game/mobile/ProductDetailOverviewView/product-24342?cid=BAC-UX1591603791&a=160x600sky
And in the gamedev forums the trolls are already all over it and saying how much java sucks.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #86 - Posted 2005-11-04 23:48:45 »

Doom ... RPG Huh

Holy crap !! Its a turn-base doom (like in Bards Tale turn-base).

Quote
Doom RPG might look a whole lot like the first-person shooter it's based on, but this is actually a turn-based game. You can move one square at a time, and if there are any active enemies in the vicinity, they'll take their turns as well. Some actions, such as rotating your viewpoint--which is done at 90-degree angles--don't cost you a turn, so you've got plenty of time to survey your surroundings. The strategy of the game is to try to make enemies waste their turn on moving into your line of fire and then give them the business with one of your many weapons. Some enemies, however, are able to move into your view and attack in the same turn. Knowing the difference between the two is key to your survival.

Carmack has balls.

Check out the review here from where that quote came:

http://www.gamespot.com/mobile/action/doomrpg/review.html?sid=6134301
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #87 - Posted 2005-11-05 00:50:20 »

Doom ... RPG Huh

Holy crap !! Its a turn-base doom (like in Bards Tale turn-base).

Carmack has balls.
He's got buissiness sense. Very few mobiles have the CPU needed to run a proper 3d game, and none of them have a good enough set of buttons to support any kind of twitch gaming (especially Doom games, which require more buttons).

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #88 - Posted 2005-11-05 23:26:00 »

He is late. There is already roguelike game with this theme.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #89 - Posted 2005-11-06 12:10:58 »

Not late at all. He will sell a shedload because of the Doom brand. Stroke of genius.

Cas Smiley

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