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  Carmack is trying Java, again  (Read 12856 times)
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Offline Spasi
« Posted 2005-03-28 08:35:38 »

His thoughts:

http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/johnc/
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 369
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-03-28 09:43:17 »

LOL  Roll Eyes

Cas Smiley

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-03-28 10:42:40 »

Quote:
"The biggest problem is that Java is really slow"
     
Cell phone adventures

March 27th, 2005 | John Carmack's Blog

-Specifically, this would be the kvm, or MIDP, or whatever that J2ME stuff he's using is NOT J2SE.
But is doesn't matter now, because it will be up in Google in < week with a BRAND NEW JON CARMACK quote of "really slow"

Someone, kill me...

[mod] For those of you that can discount Carmack as less relatvent now, etc....Well I see gobs of new students entering the industry every day and they don't.  It may not be right or "youthful" but it matters.  These are the guys that are growing the industry and there is always more of them than the older...Chris M, it's damage control time!

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-03-28 11:38:56 »

It's quite clear that he doesn't speak about J2SE. IMHO, the only damage control that could be done is improve J2ME implementations because as far as I can tell, JC is spot on about mobile java. I'm not sure what Chris can do about this.

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-03-28 11:45:45 »

That would be amazing damage control to release a faster J2ME implementation! - and that's not exactly damage control.

The issue is the use of the word Java.

He meant the J2ME implementation he was using.  If he had worte that there would be no issue.
He wrote "Java" in his defining sentence, which alone without the context of the entire article, is a very easyily eatable, quotable sentence that unfortunately is quite damaging.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 369
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-03-28 11:54:56 »

I may have said before... but I don't really care any more about Java's reputation. The less people using it the better for me, as it gives me a sneaky advantage.

Cas Smiley

Offline Spasi
« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-03-28 11:57:14 »

Quote
I'm not sure what Chris can do about this.


Right, noone can do anything about it. What we need is a killer Java game. Or at least something really impressive.
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-03-28 12:02:53 »

Quote
It's quite clear that he doesn't speak about J2SE. IMHO, the only damage control that could be done is improve J2ME implementations because as far as I can tell, JC is spot on about mobile java. I'm not sure what Chris can do about this.



Releasing a faster J2ME, now that's damage control! (jk) But that's not the issue..
He meant his J2ME inplementation was slow...
but he wrote "Java"

That is not complete and has a huge implication.  Carmack is entitled to his opinion (based quite correctly on his experience) but the fact the J2SE/EE and J2ME are VERY different technologies is important when it comes to statements like "... Java is really slow"

It's funny, just as we are making some headway with "Java" (J2SE), "Java" (J2ME) ruins the public picture again....Branding matters, I really with J2ME was called JavaLite of something!

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-03-28 12:06:29 »

There are already killer java games! Check out the games from the GDC video! Think about Wurm Online, Tribal Trouble, Squareheads, Puppy Games games and I'm sure I'm forgeting important ones...

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-03-28 12:07:28 »

Quote
I may have said before... but I don't really care any more about Java's reputation. The less people using it the better for me, as it gives me a sneaky advantage.

Cas Smiley


If you really believe that you are missing allot.  An advantage would be stronger developer community, support from key people in the field (Carmack for example) and thus better business models and much easy venture capital and other industry support money...

Cas, you post allot about Sun giving you money to make games.  But if people like Carmack gave Java a really good endorsement, you wouldn't need $$$ from Sun, the other multitude of game money channels would be more open to your development with Java. (and conversely, an ill placed criticism from industry leaders can greatly reduce adoption of Java, by the industry and new developers, sometimes even greater than all the mountain shouting on these forums...:-()

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 369
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-03-28 12:48:11 »

Yeah I know, it's just that after all this time, there's no hint that anyone has actually taken the reins on this issue, so I pretty much... don't care any more.

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-03-28 12:56:23 »

It seems to me that the only people who will take the "java is slow" quote literally, and not within the J2ME context, are not the people that really matter.
But unfortunately, otoh, many people will not actually read the article and will only hear something from somebody who's friend told him his sister's boyfriend read somewhere that "Carmack said that Java is really slow".

Offline Spasi
« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-03-28 13:11:59 »

Quote
There are already killer java games! Check out the games from the GDC video! Think about Wurm Online, Tribal Trouble, Squareheads, Puppy Games games and I'm sure I'm forgeting important ones...


There are great games in that video, but what I mean is a game that will make its creator VERY rich. Wink

I don't believe of course that none of the above is capable of making such a success, it just hasn't happened yet.
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-03-28 13:14:01 »

agreed. :-) We'll see...

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-03-28 13:37:19 »

Quote
It seems to me that the only people who will take the "java is slow" quote literally, and not within the J2ME context, are not the people that really matter.


define: "people that really matter"

Because I would agrue that most of the people that matter don't even know that Java is really J2SE, J2EE and J2ME, nor should they know, nor do they want to know...

Carmack didn't post to the Java Gaming Forums where people may know the difference, it was on a much more public blog where they are pretty much guaranteed not to.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-03-28 13:37:35 »

I don't normally agree with Shawn Tongue but ...

Quote


If you really believe that you are missing allot.  An advantage would be stronger developer community, support from key people in the field (Carmack for example) and thus better business models and much easy venture capital and other industry support money...

Cas, you post allot about Sun giving you money to make games.  But if people like Carmack gave Java a really good endorsement, you wouldn't need $$$ from Sun, the other multitude of game money channels would be more open to your development with Java. (and conversely, an ill placed criticism from industry leaders can greatly reduce adoption of Java, by the industry and new developers, sometimes even greater than all the mountain shouting on these forums...:-()


...100% with Shawn here. Giving up is ... well, giving up. No matter how you look at it.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-03-28 18:39:29 »

Well... the blog finally hit Slashdot... 8-0 - http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/03/28/156219.shtml?tid=207&tid=193
]
On the up side, it's not going over so well (even though Slashdotters can often be anti-Java!)  People are mostly pointing out Carmack's misrepresentation as well as other cell phone issues.

best quote -
"To say that the J2SE (or J2EE) plaforms suck because a particular J2ME implementation is slow is like saying that internal combustion engines suck because your go-kart can only go 15 mph."

I have to say I am pleasantly surprised!

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-03-28 20:10:16 »

Yes, that is surprising.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2005-03-28 20:28:10 »

Its true that Java is slower than C++ for games. Something like 75%-95% compared to a C++ game. Carmack isn't saying any lie in here.

The main advantage of Java is in the flexibility and cleaness of the language. Using Java pays on the PCs for large and complex projects not in small games, unless we are talking about applet like games.

In mobiles it may be even more critical than in PCs. However mobile phones mostly have adopted Java so Carmack must stick to it wether he likes it or not.

The only thing that can boost Java as a credible technology for games is making a java game hit. And this won't happen with everyone doing his own tiny game instead of working together in one thing that can make some noise.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 369
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2005-03-28 22:06:30 »

Amen bro.

Cas Smiley

Offline K.I.L.E.R

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-03-29 00:03:04 »

Sorry for being a little OT, but could it be possible to get everyone on these forums to make a game toegether?


Quote
Its true that Java is slower than C++ for games. Something like 75%-95% compared to a C++ game. Carmack isn't saying any lie in here.

The main advantage of Java is in the flexibility and cleaness of the language. Using Java pays on the PCs for large and complex projects not in small games, unless we are talking about applet like games.

In mobiles it may be even more critical than in PCs. However mobile phones mostly have adopted Java so Carmack must stick to it wether he likes it or not.

The only thing that can boost Java as a credible technology for games is making a java game hit. And this won't happen with everyone doing his own tiny game instead of working together in one thing that can make some noise.


Vorax:
Is there a name for a "redneck" programmer?

Jeff:
Unemployed. Wink
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #21 - Posted 2005-03-29 00:30:33 »

Quote
Well... the blog finally hit Slashdot... 8-0 - http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/03/28/156219.shtml?tid=207&tid=193
]
On the up side, it's not going over so well (even though Slashdotters can often be anti-Java!)  People are mostly pointing out Carmack's misrepresentation as well as other cell phone issues.

best quote -
"To say that the J2SE (or J2EE) plaforms suck because a particular J2ME implementation is slow is like saying that internal combustion engines suck because your go-kart can only go 15 mph."

I have to say I am pleasantly surprised!


How about this one?

"...Carmack is way over-estimating performance of most phones. Only the highest-end Java phones support 200k jar sizes. The majority of consumer phones are limited to 64k - even many brand new phones have this limitation. On the other hand, he's not being 100% fair with his GBA comparison. Gameboy, GBC, and Gameboy Advance all have tile-based rendering that is easily capable of 60fps, while Java-based (and BREW-based) cell phones have only linear frame buffers that you don't get direct access to (usually). To aggravate things, many Samsung BREW phones have 250ms response rates.

Carmack will also be disappointed when he begins experimenting with BREW. BREW doesn't support threading, globals, or even static variables. I'm not even going to get started on the bizarre latencies of the API.

One of my jobs as a cellphone developer is to port Java games to BREW. Carmack's comments about how fast Java phones play like 4.77MHz IBMs is true, but the same is true for BREW phones as well. I've only managed to squeeze another 10% out of the performance on similar BREW phones. There are a lot of things limiting cellphone performance, but Java isn't one of the main culprits. Bad platform design and slow hardware are what kills it."

Smiley

-Chris

Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #22 - Posted 2005-03-29 00:44:26 »

Quote
Sorry for being a little OT, but could it be possible to get everyone on these forums to make a game toegether?


No, it's not possible.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2005-03-29 01:12:38 »

4.77 MHz is luxury.  I remember the Amiga computers ran at 3.58MHz and for a 2D gaming platform it ruled in it's time Smiley

Yeah, yeah, I know...  the innovative custom hardware (Copper, Blitter, Hold-and-Modify mode) make a big difference compared to a simple frame buffer.

But it does show how the *hardware industry* has stagnated because of the need to be compatible.  Cell phone hardware seems to really suck.  Imagine if they just made one cell phone that emulated a Commodore 64 at full speed... tonnes of fun games would be instantly available.  Don't whine to me about 64k jars Wink

Offline DrBizzar0

Junior Member




Raj raj!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2005-03-29 04:16:14 »

Quote
4.77 MHz is luxury.  I remember the Amiga computers ran at 3.58MHz and for a 2D gaming platform it ruled in it's time Smiley


Only, the Motorola MC68000 in the Amiga 500 ran at 7.14 Mhz  Cool

As for Carmacks article I think the controls and small screen size is a bigger contributor to mobile phone games sucking then the performance. The only games I've played on mobile phones that works is simple puzzle games and they don't require that advanced graphics.

Further, my experience is that the only time people are playing games on their mobile phones is when they are away from home and waiting for something. So only games with a rather short playing time should work.

But I must add, I done alot of commuting with public transportations the last 7 years (an environment that should make alot of people bored and start playing games.) and I haven't seen that many mobile games players and this is in Sweden that has a high adoption of mobile phones. My experience is that listening to music, sending SMS and reading books are way bigger time killers Smiley
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #25 - Posted 2005-03-29 04:33:29 »

Quote
I don't normally agree with Shawn :P but ...
...100% with Shawn here.

Yes, Shawn did hit the nail on the head again. :-)

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #26 - Posted 2005-03-29 07:38:09 »

Quote


No, it's not possible.


Thats why Sun would have to make something to change this. Like financing and publishing java games. This only shows that Sun doesn't believe in Java PC games.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #27 - Posted 2005-03-29 09:38:37 »

Quote


Further, my experience is that the only time people are playing games on their mobile phones is when they are away from home and waiting for something. So only games with a rather short playing time should work.


According to a session on this specifically @ GDC 2005, that's a common misconception. They gave facts and figures from surveys that show "commuters JUST DONT PLAY games"

Predicting, in fact, that on any given day, you'll see:

Quote

But I must add, I done alot of commuting with public transportations the last 7 years (an environment that should make alot of people bored and start playing games.) and I haven't seen that many mobile games players and this is in Sweden that has a high adoption of mobile phones. My experience is that listening to music, sending SMS and reading books are way bigger time killers Smiley


Commuters are almost as likely to play a game on their *laptop* as on a mobile phone, apparently.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #28 - Posted 2005-03-29 10:42:34 »

Quote
Thats why Sun would have to make something to change this. Like financing and publishing java games. This only shows that Sun doesn't believe in Java PC games.


Paying for content = sure sign of impending doom.

The N-Gage comes to mind. Wink

Play Minecraft!
Offline aldacron

Senior Member


Medals: 9
Exp: 16 years


Java games rock!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2005-03-29 12:42:12 »

Quote

Commuters are almost as likely to play a game on their *laptop* as on a mobile phone, apparently.


I guess this depends on the culture more than anything else. I take the subway several times in a day in Seoul, Korea. There are always bleeps and bloops in any given car from someone playing a game on their cell phone. During the morning rush hour it's rare I suppose, since most people have their noses buried in newpapers and schoolbooks. But during the rest of the day it's quite a common sight. I remember a year ago or so the noises from the cell phone games were quite annoying, but now it's just part of the environment.
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