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  I've switched IDEs! (pretty sure)  (Read 4189 times)
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Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Posted 2005-03-22 13:36:56 »

Well it looks like I have switched to NetBeans (4.1) beta from Eclipse!

I never thought the day would come but that new 4.1beta seems to have gotten any kinks out that for me, added the Eclipse project import option (which isn't totally automatic but close), has excellent mobile(J2ME) support (Sony was using it  at there booth at GDC with there Java3D stuff).

It's fast and responsive, and I am running on 3 year old AMDs, and finally the in-memory size is reasonable! (no bigger than Eclipse)

Don't mean to be a commerical for NetBeans, but I'm pretty excited.

Anyone else switching? Maybe the other direction? What and why?

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-03-22 14:20:59 »

I've gotten a full copy of IntelliJ IDEA which I mean to start using in anger at some point. I'm just fed up with all the bugs in Eclipse Wink OK fair enough I'm using the milestone versions but some of them are really bloody irritating and don't seem to want to go away and the way the UI jerks and judders under GC annoys me too.

...

but...

it IS free...

Cas Smiley

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-03-22 14:24:42 »

Always meant to take a look at Eclipse but never got around to it, especially since Netbeans has always done the job and the last few versions seem to be very good.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline ribot

Junior Member




Ribot - mobile UI specialist


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-03-22 14:25:38 »

...and what do you use on your osx box?  Eclipse 3.1?

http://ribot.co.uk - design agency focused on mobile
http://www.retrospecs.co.uk - online vintage eyewear store
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-03-22 16:06:51 »

Yeah, NB4.1 is a real big improvement over 4.0. I use to use the daily build Smiley


HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Malohkan

Senior Member




while (true) System.out.println("WOO!!!!");


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-03-22 16:28:25 »

funny I use Eclipse for all my development and CVS and SVC projects under (I think) the latest milestone, m8, and I haven't found any bugs.

Admin and Game Developer at
GameLizard.com
Play Rimscape!    |    Play Conquer!
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-03-22 17:20:20 »

Quote
...and what do you use on your osx box?  Eclipse 3.1?


NetBeans is Java just like Eclipse, so there is a Mac OSX installer, no?

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-03-22 17:24:33 »

NB4.1 does look really good. Unfortunately it has graphical glitches (don't like my windows theme - JRE bug), and has cursor slow downs (again, JRE bug).

Back to evaluating IDEA over Eclipse...

Offline ribot

Junior Member




Ribot - mobile UI specialist


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-03-22 18:19:41 »

Quote


NetBeans is Java just like Eclipse, so there is a Mac OSX installer, no?


Yep, I was hoping that there would be a mobility pack for the OSX version of the beta netbeans... unfortunately not though... so i'll stick to eclipse for the mo for mobile java development.

I'll give netbeans a go...

http://ribot.co.uk - design agency focused on mobile
http://www.retrospecs.co.uk - online vintage eyewear store
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-03-22 21:00:50 »

Best IDE ever was called Kawa. It was really simple really lightweight and very fast. I was gutted when they were bought out and dropped by another programming house.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-03-24 01:58:32 »

Hmm... sounds like I need to download the new beta.

I gave NetBeans another chance when 4.0 came out.. but at that point is still wasn't near Eclipse in terms of the features I use most.. code completion (after Eclipse, Netbeans felt like notepad as far as code completion was concerned), auto import, auto-fix, refactoring, background compiing...   And it was still noticably slower than Eclipse.

The ant-based build system slows me down a lot too.  I have an Ant build script for my projects anyway, but I like how I never have to compile in Eclipse.. the code is always ready to run.

If 4.1 has improved some of those features then I will certainly check it out again.

Offline K.I.L.E.R

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-03-24 05:43:23 »

This is definitely a good point to Eclipse.
I absolutely love that all I have to do is push shift+f12 and my program pops up instantly.


Quote
Hmm... sounds like I need to download the new beta.

I gave NetBeans another chance when 4.0 came out.. but at that point is still wasn't near Eclipse in terms of the features I use most.. code completion (after Eclipse, Netbeans felt like notepad as far as code completion was concerned), auto import, auto-fix, refactoring, background compiing...   And it was still noticably slower than Eclipse.

The ant-based build system slows me down a lot too.  I have an Ant build script for my projects anyway, but I like how I never have to compile in Eclipse.. the code is always ready to run.

If 4.1 has improved some of those features then I will certainly check it out again.


Vorax:
Is there a name for a "redneck" programmer?

Jeff:
Unemployed. Wink
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-03-24 09:10:02 »

Quote
If 4.1 has improved some of those features then I will certainly check it out again.


Not much. NetBeans follows a different philosophy. So when you pick out some special feature, you'll always find another product behind.

But it improved alot in its own features (e.g. the Ant support).

And it can import Eclipse projects Smiley


HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-03-24 10:13:46 »

" Anyone else switching? Maybe the other direction? What and why?"

IDEs who try to work for every single language in the market must very good in all languages or they will fail. Netbeans 4.0 has improved a lot.

-> Much cleaner and intuitive user interface.

-> Ant and cvs support.

-> Refactoring and automatic syntax checking features.

-> Documentation and source code for any api on an editor tab.

-> Completely modular and suports many extensions, including something to do Swing interfaces, which i don't use because its much easier and efficent do a Swing intf with RelativeLayout and a xml document.

-> Basic xml features to help editing and validating xml documents with schemas and dtds

It had all this stuff already. But the most significant is the cleanup of the ui. I think it shows they have had the help of some HCI specialist to make Nb interface much easier to work with.
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-03-24 12:32:58 »

Quote
Well it looks like I have switched to NetBeans (4.1) beta from Eclipse!
(..)
It's fast and responsive, and I am running on 3 year old AMDs, and finally the in-memory size is reasonable! (no bigger than Eclipse)

Don't mean to be a commerical for NetBeans, but I'm pretty excited.

Anyone else switching? Maybe the other direction? What and why?

Yes, me, and I'm pretty excited, too. :-)  I've been using JBuilder for years but Netbeans 4.0 and 4.1_beta did please me so much, so I switched recently. Currently I've got Netbeans 4.0 and 4.1_beta running.
4.1_beta has some smart improvements over 4.0 but I think sometimes it falls on my me because of the beta-bugs... (that's why I still use 4.0).
What's also nice are the "Development Builds" including the Q-Build (for qualtity beta build, nice idea). Which one did you find to be the most stable beta so far? (So I'll have a look at it.)

What I like a lot is tha fact that Netbeans is a true Java IDE because it not only does run out of the box on Win, Mac, Linux, and Solaris but you can also download the zip and tarball versions with no installers etc and just start it (via exe, bash, Mac script, or by changing it manually to your exotic platform). True Java without SWT & Co. :-)
That's why it also it runs perfectly with Java 1.5 ...

You're right: I also think it's fast and responsive and it doesn't take too much RAM. I think it's needing less RAM than JBuilder (at least my 512 MB Win2000 box doesn't swap out so oftenly compared to JBuilder).

Good Job at Sun plus all the OpenSource developers.
Thanks a lot!
Offline Kommi

Junior Member




All opinions will be lined up and shot!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-03-24 16:49:44 »

Yeah Kawa was the best IDE I have ever used. Im currently fine with Jcreator, although there are issues with it I would like to see resolved (mostly in the interface)

Kommi
Offline MickeyB

Senior Member




my game will work, my game will work!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-03-24 17:04:12 »

Using JCreator Pro 3.5 and like it alot!  Before that I was a JBuilder clubie.

Still use TextPad on occasion

MickeyB

Current Project: http://www22.brinkster.com/mbowles/
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-03-25 20:25:12 »

Well I gave it a try... it still doesn't compare to Eclipse

- it is MUCH slower than Eclipse (in every way possible)

- highlighting problems in the source as you type is very slow

- code completion is unusably bad
e.g. JButton b = new <activate code completion here>... what does NetBeans suggest?  Well after 10 seconds or more  of "please wait..." it offers "com.sun.org.apache.bcel.internal.generic.AALOAD" followed by a list of every bloody class in the JDK.  WTF?
Eclipse on the other hand pops up in 1 second with "JButton" at the top of the list.

- there doesn't appear to be an equivalent to the "auto correct" feature

- it requires installation of the Java Docs, Eclipse gets these directly our of src.zip

- testing changes still requires a tedious build step

- doesn't appear to support the "change and continue" feature so that you can tweak the currently running code.

- refactoring still limited

- no decent Subversion support (e.g. a rename refactoring has no way to tell Subversion that a file was renamed)

- no code formatter

- no auto complete in javadoc comments


Some of the above are no doubt available with plugins - but they are so basic they should be available in the core - this isn't a text editor it's an IDE.

It is an improvement for sure, but it still has a long way to go.

Conclusion:  If you are using NetBeans and you switch to Eclipse expect a huge productivity boost.  If you move in the other direction, well, just reverse that Smiley

I can't afford paying for IDEA given the incremental improvement that it may have over Eclipse, but of the free tools, Eclipse is still the clear winner.

Wake me up again when they release NetBeans 4.2.

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2005-03-26 14:38:25 »

Quote

- code completion is unusably bad
e.g. JButton b = new <activate code completion here>... what does NetBeans suggest?  Well after 10 seconds or more  of "please wait..." it offers "com.sun.org.apache.bcel.internal.generic.AALOAD" followed by a list of every bloody class in the JDK.  WTF?
Eclipse on the other hand pops up in 1 second with "JButton" at the top of the list.


It doesn't take that long in my 1ghz computer. It does that because it shows you an alphabetic list of matches. You can the further refine the search by keeping hiting keys while the code completion window is up.

Having the most usefull components at the top of the list can be an advantage but its usually an ignorable one since you oly have to type two letters "JB" for the code to be completed.

Quote

- there doesn't appear to be an equivalent to the "auto correct" feature


Thank god for that. Auto-correct things suck IMO.

Quote

- it requires installation of the Java Docs, Eclipse gets these directly our of src.zip


You may be making some comfusion here. Nb detects and install src.jar automaticaly, but it gives the user the freedom to select the javadoc dirs from where to read javadocs. There is no need to parse src.jar for docs because they are already parsed and available for download from Sun.

Quote

- testing changes still requires a tedious build step

- doesn't appear to support the "change and continue" feature so that you can tweak the currently running code.


I think i want to avoid that, personaly.

Quote

- refactoring still limited


Mmmm ?

Quote

- no decent Subversion support (e.g. a rename refactoring has no way to tell Subversion that a file was renamed)


Update ?

Quote

- no code formatter

- no auto complete in javadoc comments


Who da hell documents and formats his code anyway.  Grin

But really i think these are all minor details can be added with plug-ins if people want that stuff in the first place.

Stuff like auto-correction and editing code while debuging is very dangerous. I have been misleaded by it many times and i prefer to do it myself than to have the IDE messing with my code. The last time i used Eclipse in a school work for cg and tried to debug my code i have serious problems with ide crashes, so i prefer the classic way of doing things.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2005-03-28 05:57:19 »

Quote


It doesn't take that long in my 1ghz computer.

I was testing on a dual 1.7Ghz Xeon.  I tried auto-complete many times that session.. other sessions were a bit faster, still slower than Eclipse, and still "dumb" in terms of the suggestions offered.  Eclipse is much better at code completion because it is more sensitive to the context.  It offers local variables and accessible classes that "fit" better at the top of the list.. like classes that can be safely cast to the type needed etc.

Quote
It does that because it shows you an alphabetic list of matches. You can the further refine the search by keeping hiting keys while the code completion window is up.

Same with Eclipse, but it is much faster, and has the most likely matches at the top of the list.


Quote
Thank god for that. Auto-correct things suck IMO.

One key to add throw declarations or wrap code in a try-catch block, or add a cast, or add stubs to implement an interface, or add a method to a different class from that point that you would want to call it from the current class you are editing...  All major speed-ups and typo-avoidance features.. all with the same key press.  No need to memorize a zillion different fancy key presses.


Quote
You may be making some comfusion here. Nb detects and install src.jar automaticaly, but it gives the user the freedom to select the javadoc dirs from where to read javadocs. There is no need to parse src.jar for docs because they are already parsed and available for download from Sun.


No confusion.  NB requires more disk space and another trip to java.sun.com to get the docs when Eclipse gets if from Src.jar directly and faster.

Quote
I think i want to avoid that, personaly.

I use edit-and-continue all the time... it is yet another time saver.  At least I CAN use it with Eclipse.

Quote
Mmmm ?

I mean Eclipse has more refactoring options out of the box, and the refactoring works with the source control plugins so that when classes are moved or renamed the source control repository is kept up to date with the changes automatically.

Quote
But really i think these are all minor details can be added with plug-ins if people want that stuff in the first place.

Stuff like auto-correction and editing code while debuging is very dangerous. I have been misleaded by it many times and i prefer to do it myself than to have the IDE messing with my code. The last time i used Eclipse in a school work for cg and tried to debug my code i have serious problems with ide crashes, so i prefer the classic way of doing things.

If you don't use the features then you won't miss them obviously.  I use them all the time and find they really improve productivity.

I totally loath the "Editor Abbreviations" -always screwing up the code as you type.  I'm forced to turn them off altogether and lose editing speed or do quirky things like know to type shift-space after various arbitrary variable names to avoid bogus syntax errors that the IDE puts in the code.  Eclipse handles the same sort of feature with the same "complete" key used to complete all other code.  It knows from the context what keywords make sense.  And Eclipse NEVER AUTOMATICALLY PUTS SYNTAX ERRORS INTO MY CODE!

I don't mean to be praising Eclipse and bashing NetBeans.  To be truthful I WANT to use NetBeans, just in protest over the wast of time that is SWT. Smiley
But NetBeans is too much of a step backwards.  More keystrokes to learn just to work quickly with the basic features, slower, irritating etc.

Eclipse does have it's quirks - the workspace concept can be limiting for example.  But it just does most of the routine stuff so much better.  I'm glad to see that NetBeans is paying attention though.  Competition in this area pays off for us developers.

Offline Schabby

Junior Member




The Receding Brow Worm will eat your code!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-03-28 14:46:33 »

Has anyone remarked yet that Eclipse is not only meant for Java? It's actually more than an IDE. It&#8217;s a comfortable plug-in "container" that provides a home for approximately 800 plug-ins (according to http://eclipse-plugins.2y.net/index.jsp).

Hmm, I have to confess that I don't know how well NetBeans is equipped with a plug-in architecture...

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #21 - Posted 2005-03-28 15:54:08 »

Quote

One key to add throw declarations or wrap code in a try-catch block, or add a cast, or add stubs to implement an interface, or add a method to a different class from that point that you would want to call it from the current class you are editing...  All major speed-ups and typo-avoidance features.. all with the same key press.  No need to memorize a zillion different fancy key presses.


Netbeans has all that for what i know except the most weird stuff. When you mentioned auto-completion i thought you were talking about the app inserting stuff without asking. Like when we are using word from m$ and want to write " it changes into a pritier symbol when we really want just an " and then allways screws up the matching " anyway.

Quote

If you don't use the features then you won't miss them obviously.  I use them all the time and find they really improve productivity.


Netbeans has solid tools like junit, ant, cvs, xml and schema suport and the rest can be downloaded as a module. I tried using both but i find the more experimental features to be too much distracting to be useful. I even ignore visual editors to create interfaces because they produce hugly code, in both IDEs, that is not easy to connect to our own code. For that purpose i write interfaces by hand using relative layout and xml and the final result is usualy faster and better.

In resume: I find Netbeans to provide a complete set of solid tools and to be the less intrusive of both IDEs and Eclipse to be a tad faster and have more experimental features at the cost of being much harder to use and a little more buggy IMO.


Quote

Hmm, I have to confess that I don't know how well NetBeans is equipped with a plug-in architecture...


Its the same thing. You can build an app on top of the netbeans open architecture (or whatever the name its called). As for being modular you can change every single menu or dialog box to your own taste. In fact you can do this with both ides.

Check the nb plug-in page:
http://www.netbeans.org/catalogue/index.html
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #22 - Posted 2005-03-30 02:55:18 »

Quote
Netbeans has all that...


Where are they hiding it?  Like I said, the thing that makes me faster on Eclipse is that many different forms of completing your typing are all done with the same keypress.. the context you press it in is enough for Eclipse to give good choices in the popup (if it needs a popup at all).  Netbeans is bad at even the minimal code completion that is does support.

Netbeans uses different keystrokes for some features that are all really about completing my thought...  and I still can't find anything equivalent to some Eclipse features.


CTRL-1  and CTRL-Space are the two keypresses I use most in Eclipse.  I actually type only a small fraction of my code, Eclipse types the rest for me.

Where Netbeans uses editor abbreviations, Eclipse just does the write thing if you press CTRL-Space.  The learning curve is therefore much shallower for the Eclipse editor.

I like a lot of the improvements I've seenin NB 4.1beta.. but I still can't use it because it requires more effort to use, and is basically impossible to use for refactoring because the refactoring operations are not echoed to my Subversion working copy so class or package renames are not properly tracked in the repository.  That's a killer right there because it basically means I can't use revision control and refactoring at the same time.  Easily fixable with a plugin of course ... (afer all it is handled by a plugin in Eclipse as well) but I haven't found such a plugin yet.

I think if I found a proper Subversion plugin for NetBeans I could give it some more test time to see how much of the issues are simply caused by not being familiar with the interface.  Though I did this once before around when 4.0 came out and found even after getting used to NB, it was still way to slow and not helpful enough with basic features like code complete and navigating through the code. (Ctrl-click in Eclipse rules Smiley )

The NB prefs screens are hard to get used to as well... but  getting used to something is one thing.. having it still not perform as well when you are used to it is another.

Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #23 - Posted 2005-04-06 08:58:06 »

On the developer version download section there's a daily beta 4.2 of Netbeans to download - is there more info about what this is (which features it will have, etc like with the roadmaps of the 4.0 and 4.1 releases/betas) ?
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #24 - Posted 2005-04-12 07:44:07 »

http://java.sun.com/developer/community/chat/JavaLive/2005/jl0315.html

Peter Kessler is the technical lead for garbage collection (GC) in the HotSpot VM.  
Quote
(..)
Peter Kessler: (Do I get to ask a question?) What kinds of live data sizes are people running with? 128MB, 1024MB, 16GB? And what kinds of pauses can people tolerate in their applications?

murphee: Well, I can only talk about my personal usage, and that is, for instance, 110-170 MB in my Eclipse instance; the biggest problem there is actually not GC pauses (or the GC is so quick I don't notice it), but the fact that Windows is very, very quick to swap out the memory, which, of course, causes the application to be unresponsive when that data is needed again and has to be paged in on demand.

Peter Kessler: Okay, thanks for the compliment, I think. I will suggest that you switch from Eclipse to NetBeans, and see if it has the same problem. We've done a bunch of performance work with the NetBeans folks, and their latest version really rocks.
(..)

Usually I'm sceptical when it comes to words like "it rocks", and I can't comment on what they talked about Eclipse, because I used to use the other big IDE named JBuilder.
However, having used Netbeans (4.1 beta Q-build) for a while now I really have to say it's much more responsive and runs at a constant fast speed compared to JBuilder. I'm very amazed and think Peter and his team did a good job together with the Netbeans team.
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2005-04-13 14:56:52 »

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/herkules/archive/2005/04/pressing_f5_all_1.html

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/ludo/archive/2005/04/bonjour_comment.html

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 75
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #26 - Posted 2005-04-13 18:07:02 »

i've pretty much setteled nicely with eclipse it does the job fine.

its just too troublesome to try another IDE, as the saying goes "if it ain't broken, don't fix it"!
Offline Bombadil

Senior Member





« Reply #27 - Posted 2005-04-22 15:38:30 »

Netbeans v4.1 RC1 is out and works very stable (here) so far.
I've to say I really like this IDE. The 4.x Netbeans' look and feel is very impressive - everything is where I expect it to be. Good work, you SUN guys at Prague...

I've installed the Profiler (based on SUN's JFluid I read).
"Unfortunately" I've no older VM 1.4 project currently just a VM 1.5 one, so I've to wait for the JDK 5.0_04 (scheduled for release in the end of June 2005) to see the Profiler in full action...
However, I've studied its docs on the Netbeans site and the snapshots and I've to say: it looks amazing! And it's for free?

Anybody worked with Netbeans' Profiler already?
Can't wait to see it in action... (Well, maybe download the beta Mustang soon...)
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2005-04-22 15:58:03 »

Quote
Anybody worked with Netbeans' Profiler already?
Can't wait to see it in action... (Well, maybe download the beta Mustang soon...)


I didn't really *work* with it ... just played around a bit. So I cannot really tell. Profiler results always seem to be hard to read.

Working with Mustang is nice and gives NB some extra speed :)

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #29 - Posted 2005-04-22 18:10:37 »

The profile stuff sounds promising.  I played again with NB 4.1RC1 just last night and today.   It is faster... I suppose if I wasn't used to eclipse I might be able to get used to it.  It certainly isn't a *bad* IDE.

Then I figured... I will try out the form editor, it's supposed to be good.  Well it took forever to FIND it.  The docs on the website indicated i would see stuff under the New File menu item.. nope, not there..  you have to dig deeper to make a general new file and then find a form template.  OK I found that...  Then I see that you CAN'T use the SpringLayout... you remember the SpringLayout?  It's the layout that was specifically designed to work well with layout tools.  Apparently the NetBeans form editor isn't aware it exists!   Sigh...

Then I noticed something in the open project dialog,  a checkbox to "load dependent projects"  I thought hey, that's good, I have a few projects I would like to load (like my Eclipse workspace).  Well it turns out there is no way to add dependent projects to your main project... perhaps it's because I used "free-form" projects base on an existing ant script? Sigh...

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