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  Defection To Mono  (Read 13469 times)
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 404
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Posted 2005-01-23 10:07:13 »

Elias mentioned Mono to me the other day. I kind of ignored Mono these last couple of years, waiting to see if Microsoft tried to shaft them in some way.

However, I think Mono has gotten to the point where it might actually be the solution to all my Java problems, and there's an irony.

My Java problems are thusly:

  • Not officially allowed to ship tweaked VMs embedded into my products. Looking at the Sun license this is actually a bit of a grey area but the fact is it's not endorsed and my efforts to get permission to do this have been faced variously with silence, ridicule, vague promises to contact someone about it, or hostility. Why do I need to do this anyway? Because Webstart is shit for my customers - period - and I won't here another word said about the subject by anyone not in my position. Talk to the hand, baby.
  • Proper generics, delegates, etc. and a host of other C# niceness. C# has some very, very cool language. It's as if a magic fairy got fed up with all the annoying bits in Java and fixed them. And then released the language to a standards body!
  • Easy compilation down to native code. .net was designed to allow this kind of thing. Sure I'll lose 10% performance. But as the Java freaks in here are so happy to point out, who cares when I'm not using anywhere near 100% CPU even on weedy machines?
  • Easy integration with native libraries. Imagine just how easy LWMGL would be to code when 90% of the glue needn't be written, as Mono can call GL directly for most of its calls.
  • The extreme mismanagement of all things Sun. Endless meetings to discuss minutiea of GL bindings, for chrissakes! A blithering CEO without a clue!! The ever-mysterious GTG who've been on the case for well over a year now with nothing to actually show for it!!! Where's my million bucks guys? Do you want to showcase Java or just let it all happen by accident? See the pioneer over there? He's the guy with the arrow in his back! It ain't gonna happen without proper money!
  • Consoles. I'll not be getting Java on any console, ever, in a capacity that I can use. Mono on the other hand might as well just be a nice portable DLL. Perfect.


Besides, using monkeys for a mascot how could they go wrong?

Cas Smiley

Offline Chman

Junior Duke




Nothing more that... Java games are cool !


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-01-23 14:00:34 »

Just a question, maybe I'm dumb, but what do you call "Mono" ?

Chman
Offline cyberyoyo

Junior Duke




Java games funk


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-01-23 14:28:15 »

could you make a summary of what your customers don't like in Webstart please?
I'm curious about that.
I'd also be curious to have an idea of how many license you could sell for one given software or during any given month, provided you want to talk about that.I have the impression you were one of the little guys who was succesful in selling java software, even if course it would never be as succesful as a 100%windows app.

As for Microsoft suing Mono I don't think so, actually I wouldn't be surprised if they were secretely encouraging it. To promote .Net and to hurt java (and it works doesn't it?).

thanks.
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Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Duke




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-01-23 16:10:50 »

Quote
Besides, using monkeys for a mascot how could they go wrong?


Ouch.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-01-23 17:25:48 »

All I can say is, look at Microsoft's track record.  Mono isn't important enough for them to kill it yet.  When the time comes that they consider it a threat they will not let it succeed.  They will change the Windows code such that nothing written for the .Net CLR will work on Mono, or they will deprecate the entire CLR (more likely - they are a pretty stupid bunch)

You would think that people would remember how Microsoft screws them (and the entire computer industry) over repeatedly, but sadly people always come crawling back to be part of the big monopoly.

Offline elias

Senior Duke





« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-01-23 17:44:11 »



  • Consoles. I'll not be getting Java on any console, ever, in a capacity that I can use. Mono on the other hand might as well just be a nice portable DLL. Perfect.


It's even better than that: Since Mono programs are compatible with the MS VM, and assuming they'll bring it to XBox 2, one's games might even run as first class citizens on those platforms.

- elias

Offline Bombadil

Senior Duke





« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-01-23 17:51:46 »

Cas, I think you'll get what you deserve.
And so do we all.


PS: Swpalmer's summation is smart.
PPS: My main problem with the attractive Mini Mac is that very probably the day I'm going to touch it I'd never again want to use a Wintel PC.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-01-23 23:07:38 »

Quote
PPS: My main problem with the attractive Mini Mac is that very probably the day I'm going to touch it I'd never again want to use a Wintel PC.


How is that a problem?
I see it as a solution. :)

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-01-23 23:41:26 »

Quote
It's even better than that: Since Mono programs are compatible with the MS VM, and assuming they'll bring it to XBox 2, one's games might even run as first class citizens on those platforms.


Do you think MS would let Mono run on XBox AND a competing console? They don't have their monopoly to protect them in the console market.

Mono will give you games that run on Windows.. Maybe if you are lucky they will run on Linux, though I somehow doubt it will "just work".

Offline Virum

Junior Duke




Like a leaf in an icy world, memories will fade


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-01-24 01:22:41 »

Quote
Mono will give you games that run on Windows.. Maybe if you are lucky they will run on Linux, though I somehow doubt it will "just work".


I don't know much about this, but I'd like to ask why you think that?

Quote
Question 20: Has the GNOME Foundation or the GNOME team adopted Mono?

Mono is too new to be adopted by those groups. We hope that the tools that we will provide will be adopted by free software programmers including the GNOME Foundation members and the GNOME project generally.

Question 21: Should GNOME programmers switch over to Mono now?

Yes, we believe that Mono 1.0 is ready to be used as the main development platform for building applications for the GNOME desktop. Mono includes Gtk# a .NET binding for GTK+ and various GNOME libraries which together with C# and the System libraries provide developers with great productivity for building graphical applications especially when compared to GTK+ or Java Swing



It's time to prove to your friends that your worth a damn. Sometimes that means dying; sometimes that means killing a whole lotta people.

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Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-01-24 03:46:29 »

Quote
However, I think Mono has gotten to the point where it might actually be the solution to all my Java problems, and there's an irony.
Whether you're right or not, it's interresting to note that mono doesn't actually solve any of your problems, which afaik boils down to distribution:

Quote

  • Not officially allowed to ship tweaked VMs embedded into my products. Looking at the Sun license this is actually a bit of a grey area but the fact is it's not endorsed and my efforts to get permission to do this have been faced variously with silence, ridicule, vague promises to contact someone about it, or hostility. Why do I need to do this anyway? Because Webstart is shit for my customers - period - and I won't here another word said about the subject by anyone not in my position. Talk to the hand, baby.
And mono solves this how?
Quote

  • Proper generics, delegates, etc. and a host of other C# niceness. C# has some very, very cool language. It's as if a magic fairy got fed up with all the annoying bits in Java and fixed them. And then released the language to a standards body!
Irrelevant IMO. The productivity gains between Java and C# is next to 0. And it is certianly not something that would make me change language because I want to make games!
Quote

  • Easy compilation down to native code. .net was designed to allow this kind of thing. Sure I'll lose 10% performance. But as the Java freaks in here are so happy to point out, who cares when I'm not using anywhere near 100% CPU even on weedy machines?
And this differs from java how?
Quote

  • Easy integration with native libraries. Imagine just how easy LWMGL would be to code when 90% of the glue needn't be written, as Mono can call GL directly for most of its calls.
Who cares? LWJGL is already "done" - point is moot
Quote

  • The extreme mismanagement of all things Sun. Endless meetings to discuss minutiea of GL bindings, for chrissakes! A blithering CEO without a clue!! The ever-mysterious GTG who've been on the case for well over a year now with nothing to actually show for it!!! Where's my million bucks guys? Do you want to showcase Java or just let it all happen by accident? See the pioneer over there? He's the guy with the arrow in his back! It ain't gonna happen without proper money!
And Microsoft is going to manage the game tools better than sun for indies? - fat chance. All of their new stuff (XNA) is minded towards AAA titles.

Is Mono available on Mac ?

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