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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #150 - Posted 2005-05-26 13:49:27 »

Quote

To be sure of a successful entry, one would need access to a PC. Mac & Linux box (but what flavour) and test on at least one version of each OS.


What I was getting at with the linux comments was that normally you don't need another machine to test on, you just need someone to point out where your code needs to be more defensive - usually just knowing the stack trace is enough to instantly fix it.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #151 - Posted 2005-05-26 15:07:01 »

Let's get some other things straight then: the judges' machines need to conform to some spec. as well as the compo or it's just a bag of shite again.

So: I'm proposing a 512MB RAM, single 1GHz CPU, 32MB GeForce2+ or Radeon 9k+, a 16 channel sound card, keyboard and one button mouse, and latest ordinary non-beta drivers for everything as the min. spec for everyone to work towards. Cross platform does not mean "runs on everything", you have to have a minimum spec to work to.

And: I'm only proposing rules, not laying down the law. I don't want a competition that no-one wants to enter and it certainly has to be fun. So let's keep this thread on the discussion of deciding what the rules are going to be.

As an interesting counterpoint about all the linux arguments: if 50% of the games don't work on a particular Linux box it's more probable there's something wrong with the Linux box isn't it?

And again, on disqualification: if it can't be played it can't be judged, and if it can't be judged it can't win, can it? Get real on this. Part of the challenge is learning how to write your code to run everywhere successfully.

Only this afternoon I fixed a bug in my 3-year old (!!) sound classes that prevented my stuff running on Linux most of the time. Elias found it by accident. So we're all still learning here. Just get over the fact that this isn't a million-dollar prize, it's just fun.

Cas Smiley

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #152 - Posted 2005-05-27 14:43:50 »

...discussion suddenly dried up?

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #153 - Posted 2005-05-27 14:53:58 »

Just waiting for the contest to start and the official rules to be published Wink

Kev

Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #154 - Posted 2005-05-27 18:01:00 »

Quote
Just get over the fact that this isn't a million-dollar prize, it's just fun.


hear! hear! lets get some simple rules even I can follow and go!

Smiley
Dan.
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #155 - Posted 2005-05-28 07:04:55 »

I liked the idea of just having the library running with all permissions.  However if I split all the LWGL stuff into an extension (with all permissions) & remove all-permissions from the calling JNLP, then this happens.  Is this me, or is something missing a security wrapper?


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java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException

      at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke0(Native Method)

      at sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)

      at sun.reflect.DelegatingMethodAccessorImpl.invoke(Unknown Source)

      at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Unknown Source)

      at com.sun.javaws.Launcher.executeApplication(Unknown Source)

      at com.sun.javaws.Launcher.executeMainClass(Unknown Source)

      at com.sun.javaws.Launcher.continueLaunch(Unknown Source)

      at com.sun.javaws.Launcher.handleApplicationDesc(Unknown Source)

      at com.sun.javaws.Launcher.handleLaunchFile(Unknown Source)

      at com.sun.javaws.Launcher.run(Unknown Source)

      at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

Caused by: java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError

      at org.lwjgl.Sys.createImplementation(Sys.java:71)

      at org.lwjgl.Sys.<clinit>(Sys.java:60)

      at org.lwjgl.opengl.Display.<clinit>(Display.java:96)

      at org.lwjgl.util.Display.getAvailableDisplayModes(Display.java:72)

      at Game.<init>(Unknown Source)

      at Game.main(Unknown Source)

      ... 11 more

Caused by: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission org.lwjgl.util.Debug read)

      at java.security.AccessControlContext.checkPermission(Unknown Source)

      at java.security.AccessController.checkPermission(Unknown Source)

      at java.lang.SecurityManager.checkPermission(Unknown Source)

      at java.lang.SecurityManager.checkPropertyAccess(Unknown Source)

      at java.lang.System.getProperty(Unknown Source)

      at java.lang.Boolean.getBoolean(Unknown Source)

      at org.lwjgl.LWJGLUtil.<clinit>(LWJGLUtil.java:55)

      ... 17 more


/Edit - I got fed up with waiting & have started anyway and unless the contest starts real soon, will be posting it in My Games instead.  I figure I can always write another if I want to enter the contest.

/Edit2 - and a signed jar is about 1.5k bigger than an unsigned one  Cry

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #156 - Posted 2005-05-28 10:07:15 »

Your numpty wumpty signing won't cut it for an extension Smiley You need a proper expensive certificate signed by Thawte or Verisign etc. like what I've got Cheesy

In fact you could try that out: install the LWJGL and utils that I've got at http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/shared/test/lwjgl.jar (and lwjgl_util.jar) as an extension and see how that fares. They're both kosher signed by Shaven Puppy Ltd (my company).

If everyone would like to use them for the competition be my guest.

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #157 - Posted 2005-05-28 10:29:25 »

I think the bar is raised a little high for this 16k contest.

It's a contest by devs, for devs. Mainly to show-off. Why would we be forced to make it run in the sandbox, or risk disqualification if it crashes on some unknown judges-machine.

The contest is meant to be exciting. Taking part and showing your game should be the goal. If it fails to run everywhere, so be it. All these rules and restrictions take the most important part out of it: fun.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #158 - Posted 2005-05-28 10:44:21 »

Quote
Your numpty wumpty signing won't cut it for an extension Smiley You need a proper expensive certificate signed by Thawte or Verisign etc. like what I've got Cheesy

In fact you could try that out: install the LWJGL and utils that I've got at http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/shared/test/lwjgl.jar (and lwjgl_util.jar) as an extension and see how that fares. They're both kosher signed by Shaven Puppy Ltd (my company).

If everyone would like to use them for the competition be my guest.

Cas Smiley


Looks like I'm showing my ignorance again Grin

What about the native libraries though?

Best Regards
Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #159 - Posted 2005-05-28 11:00:37 »

Quote
I think the bar is raised a little high for this 16k contest.


No-one's going to stop you from entering a POS that won't work on anyone's machine, so if all you care about is your personal enjoyment, you should be fine.

Quote

Why would we be forced to make it run in the sandbox, or risk disqualification if it crashes on some unknown judges-machine.


If you can't manage to achieve a minimal level of quality like this then your game is going to be crap anyway. Personally, even as a developer I don't *want* to play your game if your coding is so poor (but that's just me); anyone can write crap that only works on one machine - that's totally uninteresting.

However, if the judges know they can completely ignore your piece of crud if it fails to start, and don't waste hours trying to fix YOUR code for you, then that'll make the rest of the comp run more smoothly (and mean they spend more time playing the better games instead).

In all fairness, you are warned of this before you enter.

Shrug.

Quote

All these rules and restrictions take the most important part out of it: fun.


OK, let's have no rules and no restrictions:

"write a game of any size whenever you like, and don't bother making sure it works. Tell us about it sometime"

Hmm. Nothing stopping you from doing that right now, is there? Grin

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #160 - Posted 2005-05-28 12:10:00 »

Quote


No-one's going to stop you from entering a POS that won't work on anyone's machine, so if all you care about is your personal enjoyment, you should be fine.


I've yet to see a LWJGL-app that ran on all systems the first run. The "Your games here" forums is flooded with stackttraces.

Quote

If you can't manage to achieve a minimal level of quality like this then your game is going to be crap anyway.


We are talking about an unknown computer, with unknown drivers here. It might crash for any random reason, while your code is actually valid.

Quote

Personally, even as a developer I don't *want* to play your game if your coding is so poor (but that's just me); anyone can write crap that only works on one machine - that's totally uninteresting.


You are reversing it here. I said that it might not run on all systems. I didn't say that it would only run on a few.

Quote

However, if the judges know they can completely ignore your piece of crud if it fails to start, and don't waste hours trying to fix YOUR code for you, then that'll make the rest of the comp run more smoothly (and mean they spend more time playing the better games instead).


I'm wondering what makes you say this. It's completely obvious the judge should not attempt to fix anything. If it doesn't start, that's the end of the story.

Quote

In all fairness, you are warned of this before you enter.

Shrug.


Shrug.

Quote

OK, let's have no rules and no restrictions:

"write a game of any size whenever you like, and don't bother making sure it works. Tell us about it sometime"

Hmm. Nothing stopping you from doing that right now, is there? Grin


What a lame response. Take a look at J4K. There were no such weird rules (like the sandbox environment), and it was a huge success. The feedback in the forum resulted in important stacktraces and thus the bug-fixes. No need to enforce that. It regulates itself.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #161 - Posted 2005-05-28 13:07:47 »

You guys give me a headache.

Roll Eyes

Who cares about certificates, just  write your damn game and webstart it from jgf or whatever; you can sort all that out when you actually have something to submit...  Kiss
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 12
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #162 - Posted 2005-05-28 13:18:39 »

After some careful looking-arounding, I found the biggest problem, and a good solution to it:

I'll join the competition if blahblahblah isn't involved in it.

Play Minecraft!
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #163 - Posted 2005-05-28 14:19:44 »

>Take a look at J4K. There were no such weird rules (like the
>sandbox environment)

Fullscreen.

You need permissions for that.

With that extension you don't need permissions. You really just don't need em for *anything*... except multiplayer across the network, but that didn't work for j4k very well (there were 2 network games iirc... most people weren't able to play em because no one else was connected to the server).

Sandbox, webstart, java 1.4... sounds great, doesn't it? Wink

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #164 - Posted 2005-05-28 14:46:26 »

Using LWJGL requires signing your own jar, right? That results in a (big) manifest, and some additional files (2?) in the jar-file.

This seems to be more fair:
16384 bytes for your original JAR, and everything signing (or writing the JNLP) adds in bytes is considered 'free', like the LWJGL-lib.

Think of the frustration when you hit the 16k limit just because you also have to sign your JAR.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #165 - Posted 2005-05-28 15:43:53 »

You don't have to sign your jar, as it remains untrusted.

Only the LWJGL extension will be signed, and granted <all-permissions/>


In your jnlp, you just have to declare <extension name="lwjgl" href=http://....where-is-the-extension.jnlp/> and that's it.

Lilian

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #166 - Posted 2005-05-28 16:56:41 »

All of you whiners, stop whining. Just write a game that comes in a jar that measures no more than 16384 bytes whether it's signed or not. You should use LWJGL 0.97 as an extension and the one I've provided will work perfectly for that purpose. It's got to work on 1.4.2 onwards and it's got to work on all the judges' machines, the specs of which will be available, and there will be a qualifying round where the judges can test everything and provide stacktraces etc. before the final submission. The prizes will be small and it's all for fun. The entries will be available for the general public to play so aim to please them as much as any developers. Open source it if you like but no-one's going to host the source for you.

Any other nitty gritty is just pointless. If I were you I'd start coding now as there is basically nothing going to change with what I've just said that will affect your entry or your enjoyment of the competition in any way and the sooner you start the sooner you can test your gamelet on more computers before it gets officially submitted to the qualifying round which will make our lives much easier.

Who else would like to judge? Who else would like to offer a prize?

Cas Smiley

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #167 - Posted 2005-05-28 17:39:47 »

Cas,

Thanks for the signed lwjgl & lwjgl_util jars.  However I suspect that signed jars containing the native libraries are also required to make this work.

I also tried using keytool to put my self-signed certificate in as a root certificate, but while I can now see it in the webstart trusted certificate list, that doesn't provide a temporary work around for some reason that totally escapes me.  More magic required.

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #168 - Posted 2005-05-28 17:51:51 »

Quote

We are talking about an unknown computer, with unknown drivers here. It might crash for any random reason, while your code is actually valid.


No, we're talking about properly installed computers with decent modern hardware (no Intel crap, for instance). It's not like someone's going to go out and find the worst machine they can - they'll almost certainly be using their own dev machine.

Quote

I'm wondering what makes you say this. It's completely obvious the judge should not attempt to fix anything. If it doesn't start, that's the end of the story.


The entire post was in response to those claiming that it's unfair to disqualify entries that don't work. So, that's what "made me say it"; apparently you agree Smiley ?

Quote

What a lame response. Take a look at J4K. There were no such weird rules (like the sandbox environment), and it was a huge success. The feedback in the forum resulted in important stacktraces and thus the bug-fixes. No need to enforce that. It regulates itself.


LOL. I was one of the judges, and *even after running my own debug tools against them* I couldn't get several of the games to run, period. Wasted a heck of a lot of time. So, no, it doesn't "regulate itself". And if you were to include all the games that didn't work first time, IIRC there would have been approx 20 that would have been disqualified, i.e. around 50%.

Hence (though I'm getting fed up of saying this) the need to *actually read* what we (the judges) said at the time and to try and take it on board, rather than just objecting because you don't like the things I say.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #169 - Posted 2005-05-28 19:01:15 »

Sorry Alan, forgot to mention the native jars too:
http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/shared/test/lwjgl-windows.jar
http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/shared/test/lwjgl-osx.jar
http://www.puppygames.net/downloads/shared/test/lwjgl-linux.jar

Now, fly, my pretties!

Cas Smiley





<thump> <thump> <splat> Smithers! More work at the labs!

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #170 - Posted 2005-05-28 20:10:32 »

Cas,

Thanks for the files.  I plugged them all in, cleared out the old versions in the webstart & browser caches, but unfortunately am still getting the same error as previously posted.  Signing my game jar & giving it all permissions continues to work.

Have you previously tested your library without signing the main app?  I keep looking at
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/lang/System.html#setSecurityManager(java.lang.SecurityManager)
with suspicion.  Maybe my apps unprivileged thread is attempting a priviliged operation through the library call without acquiring the necessary privilege first.

Or maybe not.  I don't really know what I'm doing here.  I might try signing my app, but then setting the thread priv's to sandbox before calling Display.create() to see what happens, if that breaks it.

Alan

/Edit - Subclassed SecurityManager with one that prints all access requests & set it before the first library call.  It prints a load of library generated access requests, including one to do with Debug, which judging from the earlier stack trace, is where it is failing.  All the printed access requests must be within the security context of the application, rather than the library, which explains the problem.  The entire log is too large to post, but most of it is the classloader requesting file read permissions.  Here are the edited highlights:

This bit of code:

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            mode = org.lwjgl.util.Display.setDisplayMode(
                   org.lwjgl.util.Display.getAvailableDisplayModes(
                   640, 480, -1, -1, 16, 32, 60, 85),
                   new String[] {"width=800", "height=600", "bpp="+
                   Display.getDisplayMode().getBitsPerPixel(), "freq=60"});

            mode = Display.getDisplayMode();


(I know that second line is redundant, I'd been hacking the code about & forgot to take it out Cheesy )

Produces these application context access requests:
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C:\Documents and Settings\Alan Waddington\.netbeans\3.6\system\org\lwjgl\util\Display.class
C:\Documents and Settings\Alan Waddington\.netbeans\3.6\system\org\lwjgl\util\Display.class
C:\Program Files\NetBeans3.6\system\org\lwjgl\util\Display.class
C:\Program Files\NetBeans3.6\system\org\lwjgl\util\Display.class
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\org\lwjgl\util\Display.class
...
C:\Program Files\NetBeans3.6\system\org\lwjgl\LWJGLUtil.class
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\org\lwjgl\LWJGLUtil.class
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\org\lwjgl\LWJGLUtil.class
org.lwjgl.util.Debug
os.name
C:\Documents and Settings\Alan Waddington\.netbeans\3.6\system\org\lwjgl\Win32SysImplementation.class
...
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\org\lwjgl\SysImplementation.class
suppressAccessChecks
loadLibrary.lwjgl
C:\j2sdk1.4.2_06\jre\bin\lwjgl.dll
C:\j2sdk1.4.2_06\jre\bin\lwjgl.dll
user.dir
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\lwjgl.dll
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\lwjgl.dll
.\lwjgl.dll
user.dir
os.name
C:\Documents and Settings\Alan Waddington\.netbeans\3.6\system\org\lwjgl\opengl\Win32Display.class
...
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\org\lwjgl\opengl\Win32DisplayPeerInfo.class
suppressAccessChecks
C:\Documents and Settings\Alan Waddington\.netbeans\3.6\system\org\lwjgl\opengl\DisplayMode.class
...
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\org\lwjgl\opengl\DisplayMode.class
shutdownHooks
C:\Documents and Settings\Alan Waddington\.netbeans\3.6\system\org\lwjgl\util\Display$1Sorter.class
...
C:\User\Java\SharpShooter16K\org\lwjgl\util\Display$1Sorter.class
suppressAccessChecks
suppressAccessChecks
suppressAccessChecks
suppressAccessChecks


From the earlier stack trace, I suspect things fall over at
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org.lwjgl.util.Debug


/Edit2 Perhaps some privileged actions need wrapping:
http://www.expressnewsindia.com/site/khandwa/Setting%20Privileges%20for%20Extensions.htm

Best wishes, Alan  Smiley

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 12
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #171 - Posted 2005-05-28 23:30:34 »

Aargh, my post was supposed to have smiles in it. =/

Sorry about that, blahblahblah. Shocked

Play Minecraft!
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #172 - Posted 2005-05-29 00:30:41 »

Cas,

Yep, case solved. I created my own extension & put all the display creation stuff in it, wrapped up in a doPrivileged, and the game works.  Obviously this defeats the object of not signing the app, but it does point the way to a bug fix.  Note that going full screen also needs to be wrapped, but isn't in this code.

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import java.security.AccessController;
import java.security.PrivilegedAction;
import org.lwjgl.opengl.Display;
public class myPrivileged {
    
    /** Creates a new instance of myPrivileged */
    public myPrivileged() {
    }
    
    static void createDisplay() {
        
        AccessController.doPrivileged(new PrivilegedAction() {
            public Object run() {
                try {
                   org.lwjgl.util.Display.setDisplayMode(
                   org.lwjgl.util.Display.getAvailableDisplayModes(
                   640, 480, -1, -1, 16, 32, 60, 85),
                   new String[] {"width=800", "height=600", "bpp="+
                   Display.getDisplayMode().getBitsPerPixel(), "freq=60"});
                   Display.create();
                } catch(Exception e) {
                    System.err.println(e);
                }
                return null;
            }
        });
    }
    
}


/Edit I've refined this workaround & started a thread in LWJGL to discuss it, as I'm rather cluttering this thread up with code.

http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=LWJGL;action=display;num=1117354554

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #173 - Posted 2005-05-30 12:11:41 »



Mostly working Cheesy

/Edit - mostly works on the mac too, except there are (fixable) Z-buffer resolution problems. Some sound problems on the pc, possibly a yield() required. Quite a big difference in mouse sensitivities. Don't have a linux box to test on.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline woogley
« Reply #174 - Posted 2005-05-30 16:58:06 »

so is the rules draft approved by all? I'm like ready to post it up and everything Tongue (and by the way, June 1st is tomorrow...)
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #175 - Posted 2005-05-31 16:41:18 »

Yes, publish it; seems all the quibling dried up  Tongue
Offline Rick

Junior Member


Projects: 1


Java games rock!


« Reply #176 - Posted 2005-06-21 22:42:31 »

Is this contest dead or has it moved to a new thread.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #177 - Posted 2005-06-22 12:24:28 »

In a new thread under Contests.

Cas Smiley

Offline Rick

Junior Member


Projects: 1


Java games rock!


« Reply #178 - Posted 2005-07-22 01:11:15 »

Here is a 16K entry I was working on. I am not sure from the lack of activity in this thread if the competition will still take place. I thought I would post what I had so far instead of just tossing it.

It is a little racing game where you fly a Klingon warbird against some federation ships. Use the arror keys to navigate and the space bar to fire. The race is only one lap around the circuit so be quick off the mark.

I have an unexplained pause around frame 80 after the start of the race. It is not garbage collection. Maybe someone with a bit more experiance in LWJGL could point me in the right direction to find the problem.

Please let me know if you encounter problems.

The game is at http://www.elmkom.matzoo.com/
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #179 - Posted 2005-07-22 05:32:06 »

Great race game.  The mini-map is a nice touch. 2nd so far, but 1st is just around the corner. 

I didn't notice the pause, although I was too busy trying to go faster to look for it really.  If it's not garbage collection, then maybe it's a JIT compilation taking place.

Alan

/Edit Can see the pause now.    Played about 4 levels Smiley

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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