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Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #120 - Posted 2005-05-25 13:33:14 »

There's nothing in the sample BSD license I posted earlier that obligies people to provide source.  However, if you do provide source, the the license governs how it is to be used.

In view that Woogley & I think Cas want to post the games on their respective websites, we do need a license that allows them to do it.

Since Cas & co provide LWJGL free of charge (and with source) I really can't see why we cannot reciprocate.  While I believe provision of source is optional, even under the Draft C rules above, I will provide mine (not promising pretty though) as a thank you for all the work put in on LWJGL.

* Gets off soapbox & back to work *

Alan  Grin

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline oNyx

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Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #121 - Posted 2005-05-25 14:15:06 »

Either way... the problem with that kind of code is... it usually does more damage than anything else.

Beginners will be eigther frightend to death or will imitate the really really (really!) bad style. My 4k game for example was one constructor (which throws Exception) and a one line function for the keyboard stuff.

g.drawImage(sprites, hh
  • ,hh
  • [1], hh
  • +s[c][IW],hh
  • [1]+s[c][IH], s[c][IX],s[c][IY], s[c][IF]==0?s[c][IX]+s[c][IW]:s[c][IX]-s[c][IW],s[c][IY]+s[c][IH], null);

    Aah... that makes so much sense. Thank you. (I wrote that. Tongue) There are only 2-3 clever bits¹ hidden in a pile of (800+ lines) cryptic shit.

    Why would anyone look at that if you can take a peek at alien flux's code? (No matter what you think of the game - the code is top notch.)

    [¹ like "if(d$<$)d$+=(int)Math.pow($-d$,1.0/3.0);"... it's simple, but I never thought about something like that before. The displayed score gets the cubic square root of the difference added. This way it counts way faster if the difference is huge, which in turn prevents that the game reaches a state were the score is increased each frame.]

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Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #122 - Posted 2005-05-25 14:17:57 »

The Free Software movement is scary exactly because of things like this.

Sure, I agree it's a good idea to have an open source operating system. Yes, I could see why some people would want an open source warcraft 2 clone.

No, I don't want to be forced to give away my work for free to everyone just to enter a silly competition.
Besides, I'd much rather make a 16k demo game public domain than open source.

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Offline princec

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« Reply #123 - Posted 2005-05-25 15:51:10 »

...and prizes. Apart from judges etc. we need sponsors. Blah^3 was working on something on those lines.

I'm happy giving away my games as prizes crap though they are, and I suspect Elias is happy to give away Tribal Trouble licenses as prizes, so we at least have some runner-up stuff. But it'd be nice if there was a decent prize for the winner, like a spiffy new graphics card or OSX10.4 or a gig of RAM or something.

As for judging: I nominate meself as one, so I won't enter. Any naysayers?

Cas Smiley

Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #124 - Posted 2005-05-25 15:53:10 »

How about if a add a further notes to the Rules as clarification:

Quote

4. A binary only distribution is acceptable as a competition entry.  Source code distributions are at the Author's discretion.


As I said before, the BSD licence covers binary and source distributions.  There is no obligation to provide a source distribution.

Alan Smiley

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Online kappa
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« Reply #125 - Posted 2005-05-25 16:55:25 »

haha, talking about source code for 16k, i don't really think it would matter much, most of the java 4k games source was worse than encryption! highly compact uncommented 1 letter variables, it would just take an age to figure out anything!
Offline princec

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« Reply #126 - Posted 2005-05-25 17:27:25 »

The BSD license is excellent; the only onerous restriction that it has is that you include it in the distribution, which we needn't count towards the bytes total Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #127 - Posted 2005-05-25 18:05:04 »

Thanks for all the feedback.  Here is one last draft with:
- Simplified scoring (I also changed it to out of 10)
- Extra note regarding binary only distributions

I have to go out shortly, but will be back around 21:00 UTC and will raise it to issue 1, so we can move on and concentrate on working out the judging, prizes etc.

Quote

LWJGL16 Rules (Draft D)  
 
The competition shall:  
- start at 00:00 UTC on Saturday 28th May 2005  
- finish at 24:00 UTC on Monday 1st August 2005  
 
The application shall:  
- work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE.  
- be packaged as one or more jars using the gzip format.  
- as packed jars, consist of no more than 16384 bytes, excluding libraries.  
- use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org.  
- optionally use the FMOD library available from www.fmod.org.  
- work (without sound) if MIDI is used, but a soundbank is not available.  
- be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred).  
- be compatible with a BSD License.
 
The application shall not:  
- require any libraries except those identified above.  
- use any resources external to the jar(s).  
- contain offensive material.  
- contain any unlicenced copyright material, trademarks or patents.  
 
Games shall be judged on:  
- Gameplay (10 points)
- Technology (10 points)  
 
Notes:  
1. A client-server architecture is permitted, provided the server is implemented in java and the total number of bytes of both client and server jars does not exceed  16384 bytes.  
2. It is desirable that the application does not require a soundbank to be installed.  
3. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X.  
4. A binary only distribution is acceptable as a competition entry.  Source code distributions are at the Author's discretion.


Looking forward to seeing your masterpieces

Alan  Cheesy

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #128 - Posted 2005-05-25 18:35:00 »

I'm not convinced by this, lots of things here where you're ignoring previous conclusions in the previous discussions of all this. I'm sure I've missed a few myself, but off the top of my head:

PS: better if you don't use quotes (use code tags instead) It makes it hard for people to reply to because this board is so buggy Sad

Quote

- work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE.    


State a version, i.e. 1.4.2_07. If you don't, then I can easily write code that will be 1.4.2 but not 1.4.2_07 and some judges will pan it unfairly.

Quote

- as packed jars, consist of no more than 16384 bytes, excluding libraries.

The application shall not:    
- require any libraries except those identified above.    
- use any resources external to the jar(s).    


So, no libraries allowed? That doesn't stop people, just makes life more hassle - you should be allowed any library, it just counts towards your byte limit.

This also requires a more sane approach to jars and libraries - just state that the total size of all resources referenced in the core JNLP cannot exceed X bytes, NOT INCLUDING LWJGL jnlp-extension. Easy Smiley.

Quote

- use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org.  


You should provide a JNLP link rather than stating that - there may be emergency bugfixes etc to 0.97 (you never know), so providing a JNLP link and saying "if you use that, it's fine" is a better way forward.

Quote

- be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred).


Bad idea. It absolutely has to be webstart (read the problems getting 4k games to work).

Quote

be compatible with a BSD License.


Why? This is definitely NOT normal for a competition. Standard terms are: you grant the organizers (optional: "and anyone else") the non-exclusive and perpetual right to re-distribute the actual binaries you submit as your entry.

Quote
 
Games shall be judged on:  
- Gameplay (10 points)  
- Technology (10 points)  


You haven't defined either. Both need to be defined. Both, really, need you to give examples of 1-3, 4-6, and 7-10 points, so people *actually know what they're aiming at*.

Quote

3. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X.    


This is java: it's not "desirable", it's "essential". Just say "games *may* be penalised otherwise" - i.e. it's up to judges discretion, but an author who cuts corners is playing with fire.

Quote

4. A binary only distribution is acceptable as a competition entry.  Source code distributions are at the Author's discretion.  


No need even to mention source / non-source unless you are insisting on one. It confuses and puts people off. Your statement implies that source distributions would get more points (no, really. Look back at 4k for examples of such interpretations actually becoming fact).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline woogley
« Reply #129 - Posted 2005-05-25 21:08:05 »

I'm not savvy with licenses, I just want to run this like I did the 4K. If they provide a source, then good. If not, big deal! If you'll noice on my site, it clearly says "this site will never release source codes, authors must do this on their own homepage" - and that's exactly how I want it. Java Unlimited is a game site, not a source site.. surely BSD does not force source to be released?! I'm half-sure CC doesn't, anyway...
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Offline princec

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« Reply #130 - Posted 2005-05-25 21:12:46 »

Further clarification then:

1  
Scoring is unlimited and based on rank. Each judge will rank each game in order; then each game's average rank from all judges will be the final score. The best score is therefore (1,1) and the worst score is (n, n) where n is the number of games entered.

and
1  
Entries may be submitted under any license which also grants at minimum the competition organisers the non-exclusive perpetual license to distribute the binaries.

and
1  
The game [b]must[/b] be launched by Webstart and Webstart only

and
1  
The game [b]must[/b] work on all versions of Java from 1.4.2_0 onwards. Failure to work on [b]any[/b] of the judges' machines will result in disqualification*. So there. Better get it right eh? No harm in testing before you submit.

and
1  
The game must run on Win98, WinME, Win2k, WinXP, OSX10.3+, Linux x86 (insert suitable version here...?) and failure to run on all platforms results in instant disqualification.


Disqualification sound a bit harsh? Well, tough, the whole point of the LWJGL and Java is that it works - everywhere - and that is your primary concern before it actually plays or looks good.

Cas Smiley

[size=0]* except judges using Linux, who deserve everything they get[/size]

Offline Alan_W

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Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #131 - Posted 2005-05-25 21:23:12 »

Quote
I'm not convinced by this...


Blah, you saw the rule proposals yesterday and were the second person to post (after Cas). It's really rather late for a rehash, but I will attempt to answer your crits

1. Code rather than Quote.  Ok, because it's you.

2. JRE release numbers - You get 1.4.2_07 with Mac OS X, so it's a good target.  However I'm not going to insist on it.

3. Not many libraries come in under 16k.  The GAGEtimer might be nice, but while the jar is a bit over 4k, the dll is about 94k unpacked.  On the whole not a realistic request.

4.  It does make sense to provide a shared copy of LWJGL, so as to avoid multiple downloads, but agreeing who  is hosting would need discussion, which would be best kept separate so as not to hold things up.

5. I certainly would prefer webstart, since that would avoid issues with installing libraries, but did not want to exclude anyone who did not have decent hosting where they can set the required mime types.

6. BSD - There has already been much discussion & dissent on this. It is impossible to keep everyone happy, but I am not about to start designing a custom license for the contest, as that would just start another hare running.

7. I tried to breakdown the scoring into sub-groups, but folks weren't having it.  I am delivering what the majority have requested.

8. Cross-platform is a key part of java.  However how many people have a PC, Linux box & a Mac.  OK, others can help with the testing, but good cross-platform performance is difficult to achieve when you don't have the platform at hand.  Thus this is 'desirable' rather than 'essential'.

9 I mentioned binary only specifically because people were already confused and assuming that they had to supply source, even though this is not mandated by the license.  Hence the clarification.  It is redundant information, which is why it is a note, not a requirement.


So overall, I think you have a point with items 4 & 5 identified above.  We should look at 4 as a separate item for websites hosting a set of competition entries; I understand you have been putting something in place at JGF to specify libraries. Does it do this?; Also perhaps you could offer your services at JGF to help any folks who can't serve their own jnlp's, thus resolving item 5, although mandating this is going a bit to far. (Besides think of how much fun you will have lambasting anyone foolish to submit an executable jar.)

Best Regards
Alan Cheesy

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #132 - Posted 2005-05-25 21:29:43 »

Quote
Further clarification then:

1  
Scoring is unlimited and based on rank. Each judge will rank each game in order; then each game's average rank from all judges will be the final score. The best score is therefore (1,1) and the worst score is (n, n) where n is the number of games entered.

and
1  
Entries may be submitted under any license which also grants at minimum the competition organisers the non-exclusive perpetual license to distribute the binaries.

and
1  
The game [b]must[/b] be launched by Webstart and Webstart only

and
1  
The game [b]must[/b] work on all versions of Java from 1.4.2_0 onwards. Failure to work on [b]any[/b] of the judges' machines will result in disqualification*. So there. Better get it right eh? No harm in testing before you submit.

and
1  
The game must run on Win98, WinME, Win2k, WinXP, OSX10.3+, Linux x86 (insert suitable version here...?) and failure to run on all platforms results in instant disqualification.


Disqualification sound a bit harsh? Well, tough, the whole point of the LWJGL and Java is that it works - everywhere - and that is your primary concern before it actually plays or looks good.

Cas Smiley

[size=0]* except judges using Linux, who deserve everything they get[/size]



I hope this is tongue in cheek, particularly the last part.  If not I am not going to rework though the whole thing again.

I'm prepared to change the rules to webstart only if you like, but any other changes will have to be made by someone else as my patience has run out.

Alan Grin

/Edit - I think you might be serious - OK that's me out

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline tom
« Reply #133 - Posted 2005-05-25 23:29:57 »

Quote

Disqualification sound a bit harsh? Well, tough, the whole point of the LWJGL and Java is that it works - everywhere - and that is your primary concern before it actually plays or looks good.


What if it don't run because of a bug in the jre, LWJGL or driver? Have LWJGL got FMOD, devil and all other features running on all the platforms you mentioned? Besides whos got the resourses to test the game on 30 different configuration of jre/platform.

On a related note. Is it allowed to specify high minimum requirements on the OpenGL features used? Lets say using an extension only available on high end cards.

Offline CaptainJester

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Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #134 - Posted 2005-05-26 00:39:56 »

Quote
Further clarification then:
1  
The game must run on Win98, WinME, Win2k, WinXP, OSX10.3+, Linux x86 (insert suitable version here...?) and failure to run on all platforms results in instant disqualification.


Disqualification sound a bit harsh? Well, tough, the whole point of the LWJGL and Java is that it works - everywhere - and that is your primary concern before it actually plays or looks good.

Cas Smiley

[size=0]* except judges using Linux, who deserve everything they get[/size]

Except how are we supposed to test everyone's machines to see if it works?  We can put it up here, but the problem is sometimes people don't try it for you.  I put mine up for the 4K and got 3 people to test it.  I don't know anyone else who wants to try it out.  I basically get to try it on 2 machines and hope for the best elsewhere.  So I should be disqualified for not having the resources other people have?

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #135 - Posted 2005-05-26 01:27:08 »

I actually liked Cas' rules.

I think to solve the problem of not having resources there should be a mandatory qualification round involving feedback from judges on the various system configurations that will be used for final testing.  The feedback should be restricted to issues with running the program.  During the main round if the code fails on a system that was not tested during the qualification round it doesn't count against the entry.

Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #136 - Posted 2005-05-26 05:44:56 »

The trouble is that we all have different views and it is difficult to find a compromise that we all agree to.  The best we can hope for is a set of rules where we are all equally unhappy, but willing to accept  Grin

*rant on*

I'm in a fairly reasonable position regarding cross-platform and have all (eh, most of) the OS's required by Cas.  I'm short of a third decent box, but could lash something up or borrow one.  I'd still have to install & uninstall OS's to work round all the versions in Cas' post, but I could do it. (I have copies of Win 95, 98, 2000, XP, Suse 8.2, Rehat 5.1 (old) & a broadband connection so can DL other variants, Mac OS 10.3.7, 10.3.9, 10.4, 10.4.1) But does everyone have that luxury. I think not.  That gives me an unfair advantage.

Regarding insisting on webstart.  I have several websites and know how to set mime types as I have done so as to serve J2ME over WAP.  However it does cost money (not much though) to rent hosting so not everyone will have it.  Another unfair advantage to me  Cool Yippee.

However I was trying to provide a set of rules that provided a level playing field but did not require cheque-book engineering (check-book for the americans). Stupid me, when I could have put in all those difficult to meet requirements.  Possibly I could have frightened everyone off and been the only entry.  Bound to win then.  Heh, there is still time.

*rant off*

In all seriousness, the Draft D rules I did yesterday are a good compromise.  If I modify them to meet Blah's & Cas' last posts, then we will get adverse comment from others who disagree with them.  (I'm still wondering whether Cas was serious or just trying to wind Blah up.  Certainly wound me up Cheesy )

The only modification I think is worth considering is insisting on webstart; if of course there are no dissenters.  Of course if there are no dissenters, that probably means everyone is intending to use webstart anyway, thus there isn't actually a problem.  In which case why waste time on it.

Anyway, I think Draft D is good enough.  Hopefully we are all equally unhappy.  

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #137 - Posted 2005-05-26 07:47:19 »

Quote


Blah, you saw the rule proposals yesterday and were the second person to post (after Cas). It's really rather late for a rehash, but I will attempt to answer your crits


Ah, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you'd go and read some of the previous discussion and hashing out of rules sooner or later. I only spoke up now because it seemed that you hadn't and weren't going to before starting the competition Sad.

TBH, I'm not really bothered, I'm only trying to warn you away from mistakes that you'll regret later.  I've run lots of competitions, from tiny freebie stuff up to 6-figure prize funds, and I just hope to make sure other people don't make the same mistakes I have made in the past.

Quote

putting something in place at JGF to specify libraries. Does it do this?; Also perhaps you could offer your services at JGF to help any folks who can't serve their own jnlp's, thus resolving item 5,


Sure, JGF is there all the time for anyone to use for this. Feel free to upload a game now and see what happens (and when you've finished playing, click the "request this game be deleted" button from the admin interface). If you break anything, I'll want to know and fix it, obviously Tongue. I absolutely have to fix the random crashing problem that takes the server down once a week or so, and believe me it's my number one priority Wink, but apart from that I know of nothing that isn't working.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #138 - Posted 2005-05-26 07:56:25 »

/me leaves the contest in disgust

Play Minecraft!
Offline blahblahblahh

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http://t-machine.org


« Reply #139 - Posted 2005-05-26 08:02:14 »

Quote

I hope this is tongue in cheek, particularly the last part.  If not I am not going to rework though the whole thing again.


Nah, he was completely serious - and, FWLIW, it's a good set of rules. Not necessairly "popular" but "good" (the two obviously being different things Sad ).

Quote
any other changes will have to be made by someone else as my patience has run out.


I'd been prodding Cas et al about this competition since March Tongue, asking them what they wanted to do, how they wanted it run, if they wanted help, etc, so I feel for you. Indeed, my last question was "have you decided to delay this until LWJGL 1.0?" Tongue.

(no, they weren't any more responsive than in this thread Wink)

Quote
The trouble is that we all have different views and it is difficult to find a compromise that we all agree to.


This is why I'm not really interested in a "competition by committee". It has been useufl in the 5 threads (this being the 5th, IIRC) debating what a comp should be to get all the different inputs and feedback, but ultimately these things are better being led by one bullish personality who just makes a series of consistent decisions and ignores what people like/dislike (part of what makes Cas's rules good).

Different commenters are each imagining different styles of comp, and I think you'll find that if the style is decided upon - the purpose - then there'd be much less argument: some, for instance, are more interested in a "competition for programmers to show off to other programmers"; I'm most interested in a "competition to produce decent imaginative mini games with shared assets" (and indeed I negotiated some assets that could be used for free by competition authors, but the LWJGL guys weren't interested cos it flies in the face of the style of compo they wanted); etc.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Riven
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« Reply #140 - Posted 2005-05-26 08:08:38 »

Quote
/me leaves the contest in disgust


Wait a minute...

Alan_W is not ruling the place here. He can defend his Drafts, but that doesn't say they will be used.

I too prefer Cas' rules, and I expect those will be used. Forcing all participants to use such a license (BSD) gains no advantages to anybody. In the end everything will be like the J4K 2005 contest, it will all be fine.

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Offline Markus_Persson

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Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #141 - Posted 2005-05-26 08:20:45 »

I really don't like the idea of having to make sure that the game is compatible with all java versions from 1.4.2_0 up on several different target platforms, or risk having my games disqualified at random.

1.4.2_07 target vm, fixed target version of LWJGL, must run via webstart, must run on Windows XP, gets bonus points for running on other operating systems.
Sane, short, allows people to test their games on all required target platforms.


And that license thing is more of a personal religious issue of mine, not a proper complaint about the competition as such.

Play Minecraft!
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #142 - Posted 2005-05-26 09:26:49 »

Quote
I really don't like the idea of having to make sure that the game is compatible with all java versions from 1.4.2_0 up on several different target platforms, or risk having my games disqualified at random.


In practice, it has to be 1.4.2_(05 | 06 | 07), simply because 1.4.2_01 doesn't actually work, nor does 2 and 3 (for instance, the core certs in all versions prior to 4 are no longer valid, and apps won't run!).

I said 07 too, but perhaps it would be better to show-off/make the most of webstart and just say "1.4.2_whatever-you-like, so long as YOU make sure YOUR JNLP automatically launches it - if it don't work because the judge had the wrong JVM, that's a bug in your JNLP and so you are to blame".

re: disqualifications, swp repeated a complaint both he and I had in the j4k and which several others highlighted (hence my repeated requests for people to *actually read* the previous threads!) which - as judge - I can vouch is almost certainly necessary; after the j4k I promised myself that all future compos I was involved in the admin side of would have a public-judging period in which judges could pre-warn authors of any probably disqualifications.

NOTE: many people asked during the j4k to be warned if their game didn't work, but in practice it's hard enough to judge 50+ games to a decent level of depth let alone faff about tyring to find the author and ask for support - so, in practice, it's essential that an essential "discovery" phase be part of the compo itself.

NOTE2: ...I have extensive experience of this issue because it's eactly the same thing I've been working on for some time for JGF to enable games to be tested by a set of official testers, and for them to notify the authors of any bugs / no-starts / etc - and give the author time to fix them - before finally accepting / rejecting the game. I will probably even have it up in time for the LWJGL 16k (well, it was always planned to be there by then Wink)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #143 - Posted 2005-05-26 09:42:49 »

Ye, Cas' rules are pretty ok-ish. Except for that disqualification part... something like that might always slip through (upside down textures on mac - ooops).

Since it's unlikely that we'll get 50 entries again... I think it might nice to have a deadline where the game needs to be complete. And then a quick test phase of... say... one week, which should be long enough to do some bugfixing (only bugfixing - adding features is forbidden).

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #144 - Posted 2005-05-26 10:49:18 »

I'm serious about disqualification. I'm not judging anything that doesn't run. I put in such a shedload of effort trying to get my stuff to run anywhere and everywhere and basically it does, pretty much. One of the best things about LWJGL is that more or less if you use it your stuff will completely work without any help from the rest of the JVM. Alien Flux ran on 1.4.0, nuff said. Having said that I'm completely easy with 1.4.2_0 as a base. Let's face it you won't be using very much of the JDK. So don't go making a mountain out of a molehill as this issue is almost certainly not going to affect anyone at all.

I want the x-platformness emphasised heavily in this competition, because that's 100% what we stand for. So anyone not prepared to go the extra mile to get their shit working on the 3 big OSes isn't going to be judged. As I alluded to though, Linux tends to be crap in getting anything to work ever so we might have to make sure there's a reliable bog-standard Linux install around to test on.

At the end of the exercise all the entrants will have also gained the experience of actually writing proper x-plat LWJGL code so there's a silver lining to this cloud. I will sleep easier at night knowing finally some others share my pain Cheesy

However you're dead right that an immediate disqualification is a crap thing, and it is only reasonable to have a feedback round where non-working entries can be tweaked to work on the judging machines. This isn't an onerous task and it's the reality of software development.

WRT the shared LWJGL library I will provide a kosher Thawte-signed LWJGL under the auspices of Shaven Puppy Ltd which will be installable as an extension and that's what you'll all be using. Problem solved.

Oh and one other thing that's been forgotten - your entry must run in sandbox permissions (the LWJGL however runs as an extension with all permissions).

And judges: look at the bright side - the less there is to judge, the easier it will be to find a winner Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #145 - Posted 2005-05-26 11:47:23 »

Quote
As I alluded to though, Linux tends to be crap in getting anything to work ever so we might have to make sure there's a reliable bog-standard Linux install around to test on.


Basically comes down to three things (no, really):

1. Write your sound init code so that if it fails to init the hw device it doesn't crash your app because you didn't catch exceptions

2. Make sure you're loading the lwjgl.so library (all that -Djava.library.path=. crap Sad )

3. Make sure your fullscreen code isn't lazy, and does actually make a decent and sensible effort to pick a resolution + refresh rate combo out of the ones available

2 shoudl be automatic from using webstart (yay!), 3 IIRC is now automatic if you just use the way you're supposed to with LWJGL (or copy/paste from the example code?), and 1 is something that everyone should do and most by now have learnt to do as standard.

Could be helpful to generate some example code for 1, perhaps?

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #146 - Posted 2005-05-26 11:51:12 »

Enjoy the contest, then.

Play Minecraft!
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #147 - Posted 2005-05-26 11:58:25 »

Blah, no offense, but how many LWJGL apps have you actually written that run on linux because my reaction to this:

Quote

Basically comes down to three things (no, really):

1. Write your sound init code so that if it fails to init the hw device it doesn't crash your app because you didn't catch exceptions

2. Make sure you're loading the lwjgl.so library (all that -Djava.library.path=. crap Sad )

3. Make sure your fullscreen code isn't lazy, and does actually make a decent and sensible effort to pick a resolution + refresh rate combo out of the ones available


is "My arse!" There are so many driver issues, platform issues and all round crap "oh but I configured my system in this cryptic way cause it save me 2.5 seconds when I'm performing this task that I actually only perform once in a blue moon and would be better done automatically but hell I'm a linux use and I like it this way" issues its quite unbelieveable.

If support for Linux is mandatory then a "standard install" is essential.

Kev

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #148 - Posted 2005-05-26 12:04:01 »

Quote

This is why I'm not really interested in a "competition by committee". It has been useufl in the 5 threads (this being the 5th, IIRC) debating what a comp should be to get all the different inputs and feedback, but ultimately these things are better being led by one bullish personality who just makes a series of consistent decisions and ignores what people like/dislike (part of what makes Cas's rules good).


I agree.  The views here are too disparate for "competition by committee".  My objective was to give the context a kick in the pants, since it kept slipping to the right.  My rule proposals have done this, even if they are not adopted.  Since Cas proposed the contest, he's free to post any rules he likes.  However he does need to formalise them.  His earlier post on the subject gives a flavour of what he wants, but needs to be rounded out.  I'm not going to be doing it because I disagree with the disqualification rules.

The disqualification rules are rather drastic.  I don't really go for the 3rd party testing idea.  What use is a report of "your program failed to start".   To be sure of a successful entry, one would need access to a PC. Mac & Linux box (but what flavour) and test on at least one version of each OS.  This would require some expenditure, which seems over the top for what I thought was a fun contest.

I'm just watching now.  If it goes ahead then fine, if not (or I can't abide the rules) then I'll just do my own 16k program for my own amusement.


Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #149 - Posted 2005-05-26 13:14:30 »

Quote
Blah, no offense, but how many LWJGL apps have you actually written that run on linux because my reaction to this:


I meant from the POV of what goes wrong unexpectedly when playing other people's games, and that (as a linux user) you then have to inform the author of) : that list of 3 covers approximately 99% of times that a java game doesn't run on linux. Shrug.

That comes from trying most if not every single LWJGL demo, app, or etc that's been posted.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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