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Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #90 - Posted 2005-05-05 16:34:54 »

Quote
Why aren't you just using the lwjgl Display utility?


Ah, I hadn't spotted it  Grin

/Edit - Actually (after a closer look) I am using the utility, but not as concisely as your code.
/Edit2 - After an even closer look I realised that I was using the Display class in the opengl package not the utils package.

Thanks
Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #91 - Posted 2005-05-05 20:44:30 »

Since LWJGL is a community project, we can add some 4k tweaks to the library
Click to Play
.

I'm thinking of setOptimumDisplayMode() which makes a full screen LWJGL window at the user's current resolution. Wink

Will.

Online princec

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Medals: 421
Projects: 3
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« Reply #92 - Posted 2005-05-06 07:55:17 »

It already does that Smiley
Display.setFullscreen(true);
Display.create();
Done!

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #93 - Posted 2005-05-06 14:38:31 »

Nice, that's gives me a spinning triangle in about 1400 bytes!

Smiley
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #94 - Posted 2005-05-24 04:42:23 »

It's been rather quiet on the LWJGL16k front, so here are some suggestions for rules.  These have no official standing and are supplied for discussion purposes only.

Quote

LWJGL16 Rules (Draft)

The competition shall:
- start at 00:00 UTC on TBD 2005
- finish at 24:00 UTC on TBD 2005

The application shall:
- work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE and/or the java 1.5 JRE.
- be packaged as one or more jars using the gzip format.
- contain no more than 16384 bytes total in the jar(s), excluding libraries.
- use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org.
- optionally use the FMOD library available from www.fmod.org.
- work (without sound) if MIDI is used, but a soundbank is not available.
- be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred).
- be compatible with a creative commons attribution, noncommercial, share-alike license.

The application shall not:
- require any libraries except those identified above.
- use any resources external to the jar(s).
- contain offensive material.
- contain any unlicenced copyright material.


Notes:
1. A client-server architecture is permitted, provided the server is implemented in java and the total number of bytes in both client and server jars does not exceed 16384 bytes.
2. Development using java 1.5 is permitted, but not encouraged, as the JRE is not yet widespread in users machines.
3. Pack200 format is not to be used so as to allow competitive entries in either java 1.4.2 or 1.5.
4. It is desirable that the application does not require a soundbank to be installed.
5. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Online princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 421
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #95 - Posted 2005-05-24 07:15:45 »

1.5 must alas be banned for now, as it's rare as hen's teeth. Conveniently that sidesteps the pack200 issue.

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #96 - Posted 2005-05-24 07:16:12 »

There should only be one JVM version supported, so that everyone's on a level playing field. Personally, I'd say 1.4, and anyone who can't bear to go without their VB-for-loops can just make their game yet-another-advert for Toby's retroweaver.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #97 - Posted 2005-05-24 09:08:14 »

Quote

- contain no more than 16384 bytes total in the jar(s), excluding libraries.

This makes it sound like the code has to be that size before be packed into the jar.  You might want to say:
Quote

- the final jar file must be no more that 16384 bytes

Offline woogley
« Reply #98 - Posted 2005-05-24 12:24:13 »

I agree with blah3, 1.4 should be the required VM for this contest. But if users want I dont see why they cant go under that VM (i.e.  VM <= 1.4). It doesn't bother me if someone uses 1.2, I have 1.4 so it *should* run fine.

I don't see the need for the 24 hour time limit. All of the participants may not be online at the same time when we launch the contest. Besides, this contest has been in the making for quite some time, it wouldn't surprise me if someone has already whipped up an application for the contest (like oNyx did in the 4K contest: JM4K). I suggest we make it a 3-4 week contest (roughly a month).

Also, the submission link for games has changed: http://unlimited.woogley.net/games/submit.php

There's a contest choice called "Java 16K 2005" - that is the contest category the judges of this contest (which needs to be determined) will use to find the glorious winner Wink

How do we want to do the judging by the way? Last time people just emailed me the scores (and jbanes later took those scores and put them into a handy Excel file). That's alot of work though.. I think I'd rather code up a judging panel where the judges vote on Java Unlimited sort of like a poll.. and we'll let PHP do the calculating Wink

But before that happens, we need to figure out WHAT to judge (gameplay, graphics, sound, etc.)
Online princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 421
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #99 - Posted 2005-05-24 13:44:04 »

LWJGL only works on 1.4 and above so that pretty much rules out the earlier VMS.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Online kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 195
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #100 - Posted 2005-05-24 14:22:42 »

So when does it start?

Kev

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #101 - Posted 2005-05-24 16:28:18 »

Thanks for the comments.  I agree about not using Java 1.5 and that the wording of the size constraint was ambiguous.  See if the new wording is Ok.  The TBD wasn't intended to imply a 24 hour competition (I haven't got a finished game... yet) and suggest that we start this coming weekend.  The finish date is set on a Monday to ensure no one is caught out by time zones, if coding late into Sunday night.

Quote

LWJGL16 Rules (Draft B)

The competition shall:
- start at 00:00 UTC on Saturday 28th May 2005
- finish at 24:00 UTC on Monday 27th June 2005

The application shall:
- work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE.
- be packaged as one or more jars using the gzip format.
- as packed jars, consist of no more than 16384 bytes, excluding libraries.
- use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org.
- optionally use the FMOD library available from www.fmod.org.
- work (without sound) if MIDI is used, but a soundbank is not available.
- be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred).
- be compatible with a creative commons attribution, noncommercial, share-alike license.

The application shall not:
- require any libraries except those identified above.
- use any resources external to the jar(s).
- contain offensive material.
- contain any unlicenced copyright material, trademarks or patents.

Games shall be judged on:
- Gameplay (30 points)
- Graphics (20 points)
- Sound    (20 points)
- Originality (20 points)
- Cross-platform compatibility (10 points)

Notes:
1. A client-server architecture is permitted, provided the server is implemented in java and the total number of bytes of both client and server jars does not exceed 16384 bytes.
2. It is desirable that the application does not require a soundbank to be installed.
3. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #102 - Posted 2005-05-24 18:09:24 »

Quote
Games shall be judged on:
- Gameplay (30 points)
- Graphics (20 points)
- Sound    (20 points)
- Originality (20 points)
- Cross-platform compatibility (10 points)

As a *games* compo I would weigh these as:
Gameplay: 50
Originality: 25
Graphics: 10
Sound: 10
Cross platform: 5

Incedently, I would - for the life of someone dearly - never ever announce any points or listing per game.
I would simply announce a winner, a runner up - and perhaps mention an honorable entry.
Anything else is an invitation for dispute. Exhibit A: 4k compo

As for the license, I would suggest either using BSD, or similar (attribution, if you really want to go CC) - and use that license *only*. If you can't deliver your work as that license, then you don't participate. Since we'll be demoing it on lwjgl.org too, we don't want 43242 license types to confuse - and therefore we ought to just stick to the BSD/MIT license.

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #103 - Posted 2005-05-24 18:11:04 »

as for a date, june 1st to june 31th sounds like a deal. This should give us enough time to release an updated lwjgl, and setup a webstart extension. But this isn't etched in stone - need to clear it.

Offline woogley
« Reply #104 - Posted 2005-05-24 19:16:07 »

Quote

As for the license, I would suggest either using BSD, or similar (attribution, if you really want to go CC) - and use that license *only*. If you can't deliver your work as that license, then you don't participate.


The CC I've been using on my site (see here) is an attribution CC (Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 to be exact). But if you all want BSD that's fine with me. No game has been *officially* submitted (the 4K games were archived by me) so I can still change the license to something we all agree with.
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #105 - Posted 2005-05-24 20:13:10 »

Quote

As a *games* compo I would weigh these as:
Gameplay: 50
Originality: 25
Graphics: 10
Sound: 10
Cross platform: 5

The above is Ok with me

Quote

As for the license, I would suggest either using BSD, or similar (attribution, if you really want to go CC) - and use that license *only*.


If we went Creative Commons, only a single version of that licence would be allowed.  CC is best suited to artistic works, while BSD to code distributions.  

It partly depends on whether people want to allow use of third party music, which is often licensed under CC.  However LWJGL uses a BSD style licence, while OpenAl & Devil use LGPL.

So... If one used LWJGL but not OpenAl or Devil, then a BSD license would work quite well.  BSD does not ask for attribution so it wouldn't be very compatible with any CC material.

Note that if you package FMOD, you will need a non-commercial only license to comply with their 'free' version licensing.

Not sure what is the best solution. Will wait for more comments.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #106 - Posted 2005-05-24 22:34:48 »

Quote
As a *games* compo I would weigh these as:
Gameplay: 50
Originality: 25
Graphics: 10
Sound: 10
Cross platform: 5


I dispute the high weighting of 'originality'.  This isn't a 'game design' contest; its a 'what can  you fit in 16k contest'.  

In fact I dispute originality category altogether; in it's place I propose 'innovation'; imagine if someone were able to fit Warcraft 1 into 16k, that would not be original, but highly innovative.

Also, I'd like to see a two month contest; the 4k was 5 months and that's the only reason I was able to participate; 16k logically should require more time, not less.  One month is too much less imho.
Offline woogley
« Reply #107 - Posted 2005-05-24 22:50:24 »

it looks like I'm gonna go ahead and change the license agreement on the site to BSD (CC is indeed intended for artistic works, and most licenses around here are BSD anyway)

I agree with the "innovative" category instead of "originality." If we had judged the 4K games with originality, those Tetris, Snake, etc clones would have bit the dust FAST.

Regarding the two month issue.. that's worth some debate. Java 4K did indeed last 5months after multiple extensions, something we don't want to mess with again. The first extension (which was also the largest) was made because the contest started @ the Sun forums and nobody here really knew about it. I still think 4 weeks ought to be enough time. Part of the challenge is time management. However, we could probably call it even and just say 6 weeks, maybe?
Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #108 - Posted 2005-05-25 01:12:42 »

I like 2 months as well.  Like you said, "Time management".  I have very little free time to manage, so 2 months would be enough, but one month would be a maybe.  Especially with people who might take vactions in June.  June 1 to July 31 is not so bad. (Or Aug 1 for a Monday.)

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #109 - Posted 2005-05-25 03:32:24 »

Thanks for the input. Here is Draft C with changes to:
* timescale - Now a 2 month contest.
* Licensing - Now a BSD License.
* Scoring - Weighting as requested by Matzon, but with Innovation category instead of Originality.

Hopefully we're there now.  If this is acceptable, I'll raise it to Issue 1 this evening which will be the final version.

Quote

LWJGL16 Rules (Draft C)  
 
The competition shall:  
- start at 00:00 UTC on Saturday 28th May 2005  
- finish at 24:00 UTC on Monday 1st August 2005  
 
The application shall:  
- work with the standard java 1.4.2 JRE.  
- be packaged as one or more jars using the gzip format.  
- as packed jars, consist of no more than 16384 bytes, excluding libraries.  
- use version 0.97 of the LWJGL library available from lwjgl.org.  
- optionally use the FMOD library available from www.fmod.org.  
- work (without sound) if MIDI is used, but a soundbank is not available.  
- be either an executable jar or startable using webstart (preferred).  
- be compatible with a BSD License.
 
The application shall not:  
- require any libraries except those identified above.  
- use any resources external to the jar(s).  
- contain offensive material.  
- contain any unlicenced copyright material, trademarks or patents.  
 
Games shall be judged on:
- Gameplay (50 points)
- Innovation (25 points)
- Graphics (10 points)
- Sound    (10 points)  
- Cross-platform (5 points)
 
Notes:  
1. A client-server architecture is permitted, provided the server is implemented in java and the total number of bytes of both client and server jars does not exceed 16384 bytes.  
2. It is desirable that the application does not require a soundbank to be installed.  
3. It is desirable that the application runs on Windows XP, Linux and Mac OS X.  

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #110 - Posted 2005-05-25 04:20:39 »

The scoring could be simpler... like an X out of 10 thing for only two categories - 1. the game and 2. how impressive it is from the tech angle.

#1 is how much fun it is too play, how cool it looks, how original and the like and #2 is for balancing out the extra work, by rewarding things like... dunno... models, sound/music or generally everything which would be hard to do with that limit.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 16
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #111 - Posted 2005-05-25 05:51:40 »

Wait.. why do we have to open source the entries?

I won't join this competition, then. =/

Play Minecraft!
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #112 - Posted 2005-05-25 06:17:11 »

*scrolls up*

Ye, bad idea.

/me points at that draft...

http://kaioa.com/k/4kreadmedraft.txt

"This game may be electronically distributed only at
NO CHARGE to the recipient in its current state, MUST
include this .txt file, and may NOT be modified IN
ANY WAY. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES IS THIS GAME TO BE
DISTRIBUTED ON CD-ROM WITHOUT PRIOR WRITTEN PERMISSION."

That's good enough.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Online princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 421
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #113 - Posted 2005-05-25 08:48:03 »

Who cares about the source after all. It'll be 16k of hacked shite that's useless to anyone else.

I too would like to cut down on the scoring, to something simple like:

FUN
TECH

and not actually rate them on a scale at all, just rank them. Then there'd be two prizes, one for the must fun game and one for the coolest tech. And it's conceivable that one game will win both. There can be a runner up in each category, and an honourable mention in each.

By de-emphasising graphics, sound, and originality we're keeping to the spirit of the compo which is tiny games written by programmers to impress other programmers.

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #114 - Posted 2005-05-25 09:32:27 »

Quote

I agree with the "innovative" category instead of "originality." If we had judged the 4K games with originality, those Tetris, Snake, etc clones would have bit the dust FAST.


Actually, that's exactly what happened in my case. How can you possibly ignore originality in a *games* contest?

The amount of effort it takes to remake tetris very well is a small fration of what it takes to do the same with a new game of your own inventing. Unless you constrain *everyone* to doing remakes, you will create a hugely unfair landscape.

Quote

Regarding the two month issue.. that's worth some debate.


If you read back to the earlier conversations on competitions, you'll find many posts on the topic, and a poll.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #115 - Posted 2005-05-25 09:39:38 »

Looks like we are diverging again Sad

I am Ok with simplifying the scoring. Suggest:
Quote

- GamePlay (50 points)
- Technique (50 points)


Looks like we don't have a consensus on licensing.  Note that the BSD license does allow source or binary distributions, and I can't actually see anything in it making a source distribution compulsary.

Quote

Copyright (c) <YEAR>, <OWNER>
All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
Neither the name of the <ORGANIZATION> nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
Embarrassed Embarrassed

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Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 16
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #116 - Posted 2005-05-25 09:49:01 »

I don't see why I should have to make my entry to the competition Free (as in freedom).

I probably would anyway, but being forced to is enough to make me back out.

Play Minecraft!
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #117 - Posted 2005-05-25 10:03:54 »

Quote
I don't see why I should have to make my entry to the competition Free (as in freedom).

I probably would anyway, but being forced to is enough to make me back out.


It's very doubtful that a 16k program tagged onto several 100k of library is a good balance for a saleable program.  Also Woogley wants to put up the entries on his new site.  I am doing my best to accomodate as many people's views as possible, but I feel that this is contrary to the spirit of the competition and will not be taking it up.

Sorry
Alan  :-/

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #118 - Posted 2005-05-25 10:11:14 »

Quote
 Actually, that's exactly what happened in my case. How can you possibly ignore originality in a *games* contest?

The amount of effort it takes to remake tetris very well is a small fration of what it takes to do the same with a new game of your own inventing.


Yeah, right.  Then why did you give the tetris clone  some of your highest scores when you judged the 4k entries?  

edit; I also fail to see why source should be required; like Cas said its going to be 16k of shiza that will be indecipherable by anyone other than the orginal programmer (then not even by him 2 months later).  It wasn't required on the 4k contest was it?  So why here?
Online kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 195
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #119 - Posted 2005-05-25 10:26:46 »

Does it really have to get this complicated? If someone wants to give the source, good, otherwise, who cares? If someone wants to sell their game, good, if not, then who cares? The works are still owned by the creator.

You've got a scoring system, you've got a size limit, you've got allowed libraries, just need judges and dates and you're ready to go.

Kev

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