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  LWJGL16k  (Read 54038 times)
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Offline woogley
« Reply #60 - Posted 2005-03-06 17:37:09 »

Quote
I still like the theme idea, maybe a 3rd contest...


I thought the theme was to make a game in 16k? Wink
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #61 - Posted 2005-03-06 18:18:41 »

That's right. The theme is "16k".

Cas Smiley

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #62 - Posted 2005-03-06 21:42:36 »

Quote

16K > 4K but it is still a mem limit and to improve my game within the rules, I would have to do some hacking and ugglyfying my code.

That's the whole point.  Not to write easy to read code, but to see how you can squeeze an extra byte here or there.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #63 - Posted 2005-03-06 21:48:48 »

16k is a good theme.

Quote

I therefore think that a different approach to creating a level playingfield than mem limit ... a theme that creates a level playingfield and promotes creativity and gamedesign might be very difficult to come up with.  Not sure what you mean with 'set it up and let it run'


'Set it up and let it run' was a Ludumdare gameplay require ment one time.  If you've not participated in any other game programming contest then I strongly encourage you too.  They all have innane 'themes', rules, and requirements such as these.  IMHO they don't encourage creativity, they squash it.

Quote
16K > 4K but it is still a mem limit and to improve my game within the rules, I would have to do some hacking and ugglyfying my code.


I really don't see a problem here.  If you don't like squashing code then go code a game for the next idev games contest or ludumdare or speedhack or whatever.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #64 - Posted 2005-03-07 07:24:26 »

Looking at the 4K games, I'd say that with 16K it should be possible to even write some half-decent looking code without resorting to nasty hackery and single-letter filenames.

Cas Smiley

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 197
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #65 - Posted 2005-03-07 07:46:42 »

Na, nothing would get finished that way Smiley

Kev

Offline mlk

Junior Devvie




Muppet!


« Reply #66 - Posted 2005-03-11 04:00:49 »

Quote
resorting to nasty hackery and single-letter filenames.

Whats the fun in that?

Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #67 - Posted 2005-03-11 23:53:27 »

Quote
Looking at the 4K games, I'd say that with 16K it should be possible to even write some half-decent looking code without resorting to nasty hackery and single-letter filenames.


Yeah, right!  I'm already planning on how to represent vertex data in 1.5 bytes  Shocked
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 197
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #68 - Posted 2005-03-25 07:36:25 »

Any sign of a start date?

Kev

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #69 - Posted 2005-03-25 08:00:26 »

nope - busy getting 0.96 out the door first. Once thats done, we'll do some internal organizing, and find out how, where, who and why

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline woogley
« Reply #70 - Posted 2005-03-30 13:58:28 »

if the contest can wait til at least mid-April, I can have the web-based entry submission ready (well, it's actually done now, just haven't tested it much) so people won't have to rely on me checking my emails.. heheh Roll Eyes
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #71 - Posted 2005-03-30 15:01:58 »

Mid-april or later is fine with me...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #72 - Posted 2005-03-30 17:40:31 »

Could *someone*  working on LWJGL get in touch with me please? Emailed Cas some time ago but no response (about 5 days ago?).

adam at grexengine.com

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #73 - Posted 2005-03-31 05:57:31 »

Patience patience! I was just waiting for 0.96a to be released, last night, before I replied with any ideas Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #74 - Posted 2005-04-11 08:16:16 »

@all

If you want prizes for this competition ... PM me or email me with details of where you're going to promote it Smiley. We've got at least one sponsor lined up but - understandably - they'd like to be sure the competition is going to get decent coverage before they commit more than a token prize.

I need a list of news sites, forums, etc where we're going to promote this. (some blessing from Sun + a note on the front page of JGO would be handy, hint, hint Wink)

Thanks Smiley

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #75 - Posted 2005-04-11 17:32:07 »

Having never used LWJGL, I wasn't sure about this comp, but a quick look at lwjgl.org is tempting me; it would be good to learn some openGL.   There doesn't seem to be much in the way of documentation on LWJGL though.  Anyone care to comment on whether it's possible to get by with an OpenGL book & try to find the corresponding calls in LWJGL?

If it were LWJGL150k, the engine from my recent 3D game demo would port over no problem (Still need better gameplay thought Smiley ).  However 16k is a tenth of that and makes me wonder what would be left after some ruthless pruning.  I'd believe it impossible if not for looking at the 4k games and seeing what has been achieved there.  Maybe go for 4 or 16 colour images rather than 256 colour. That would save quite a bit.  Cut down on the configurable options, remove support for sloping floors & ceilings.  Maybe that'd get me down to around 80k.  Hum, no where near 16k yet.  Can it be done... and more to the point, do I have enough 'spare' time?

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #76 - Posted 2005-04-11 20:01:48 »

You have to forget all your old techniques to make a game in such little space.  For 16k its best to think about procedural textures and gameplay that doesn't require elaborate meshes to be fun.  I'm wondering if anyone will use animated meshes in the 16k contest.   Shocked
Offline ralphdaugherty

Junior Newbie





« Reply #77 - Posted 2005-04-12 03:41:37 »

Quote
author=jbanes When one considers that early video games often had *less* than 4K of space to work with *and* were often more fun than today's games, one has to wonder where the idea that 4K won't work came from. Have we lost that much of our creativity and "push the envelope" mentality? Does anyone else remember the days when only the best of the best could even hope to code a video game? Not because others were incompetent, but more because you had to know what every byte was doing and how the system used it? There were some serious hardware limitations in those days, and it was up to the software people to make up for it.



  Some good comments, here are my thoughts. I just finished rewriting my Double Deck Pinochle 8086 DOS game into Java which took it from an 11k .exe to 110k of classes. Not bad at all, in my opinion.

  I originally wrote in Z-80 as tight as possible to run on a 16k Radio Shack TRS-80, and the rewrite in 8086 didn't add that much size. I didn't have any idea how it would size out in Java, and speed is my main concern in any event, but it didn't balloon out that much to my surprise. Both are text interfaces so are directly comparable.

  I am especially pleased with the speed. In initial testing I didn't bother putting pauses between plays of the players thinking it would hit a programming error and crash but instead it played and displayed all four players cards instantaneously. I couldn't have asked more from assembler.

  I wrote to an abstract interface API so I am now replacing the JTextArea with a GUI implementation of the interface. This is my first Java project and I plan on staying in it now for a career. I've got a lot more to write yet before looking for work, though.

rd
Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #78 - Posted 2005-04-12 09:13:19 »

Quote
Having never used LWJGL, I wasn't sure about this comp, but a quick look at lwjgl.org is tempting me; it would be good to learn some openGL.   There doesn't seem to be much in the way of documentation on LWJGL though.  Anyone care to comment on whether it's possible to get by with an OpenGL book & try to find the corresponding calls in LWJGL?

If it were LWJGL150k, the engine from my recent 3D game demo would port over no problem (Still need better gameplay thought Smiley ).  However 16k is a tenth of that and makes me wonder what would be left after some ruthless pruning.  I'd believe it impossible if not for looking at the 4k games and seeing what has been achieved there.  Maybe go for 4 or 16 colour images rather than 256 colour. That would save quite a bit.  Cut down on the configurable options, remove support for sloping floors & ceilings.  Maybe that'd get me down to around 80k.  Hum, no where near 16k yet.  Can it be done... and more to the point, do I have enough 'spare' time?

Alan

Don't forget, you can compress it all into a .jar file.  Also jbanes provides a SuperPackMe tool for compressing images.

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #79 - Posted 2005-04-30 15:34:13 »

Well, I downloaded LWJGL and gave it a blast.  The keyboard & mouse polling is ludicrously easy to use.  It just works.  The openGL bit was easy too once I'd figured out those poxy NIO ByteBuffers.  The vector library is quite handy but works considerably differently from mine.  However I've been kicking my heels the last week waiting for the comp to start.

I'm planning a 3D game based on numerically calculated terrain with a model system refactored from my Storm the Castle demo. Probably first person.  Ideas range from a Robin Hood type game (but rather a lot of trees to draw = lousy framerate), to something set in the american west.  Probably a shoot-em-up, but possibly a buffalo herding type game.  People mostly like shooters though, so that'll probably be it.  Maybe a storyline to do with outlaws or bandits (to keep it out of the towns) but I quite fancy the us civil war as there's lots of good historical stuff on the web (I'm really enjoying just reading it). Anyway, wheels spinning, poised for the off, assuming this happens...it all looks a bit quiet.

Not sure what to do about sound though.  Procedural tones and noises are easy enough, but what about music.  LWJGL supports mod format, but from recollection those are a combo of sampled sounds and midi-like sequencing & probably too big.  I'd like to use MIDI, but it depends on whether the rules state that the judges machines will have soundbanks installed.  If not a possibility to to generate procedural tones & write a software sequencer.  Would sound pretty awful though; worse than Java MIDI and that has the sound quality of a strangled cat.

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #80 - Posted 2005-05-01 22:34:44 »

Using the obfuscater/kzip chain you can pretty much count on getting about 32k into 16k so that gives us a bit of breathing room.

So, its May 1st, any word on when/if this thing is going to start?

What happened to woogley?
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 197
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #81 - Posted 2005-05-02 07:01:27 »

You can delete your own posts you know?

Kev

Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #82 - Posted 2005-05-02 08:20:48 »

I think we ought to announce the compo soon, just need to thrash out a few details with Matzon and Elias and possibly blah^3.

Cas Smiley

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #83 - Posted 2005-05-02 08:23:13 »

Quote
Using the obfuscater/kzip chain you can pretty much count on getting about 32k into 16k so that gives us a bit of breathing room.


Thumbs up on the obfusticator.  I ran proguard over some code and it came out less than two thirds of the starting size.  Cheesy I haven't tried alternative zippers yet, but heard that 7zip is good.  Even (say) a 2% gain would be another 320 bytes of code.  Worth a look later for that final code squeezing.

Quote
So, its May 1st, any word on when/if this thing is going to start?

What happened to woogley?


His website hasn't been updated for a while.  Probably concentrating on his schoolwork, which is a good call.

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline woogley
« Reply #84 - Posted 2005-05-02 10:55:56 »

Quote

His website hasn't been updated for a while.  Probably concentrating on his schoolwork, which is a good call.


well you're half right Wink. My site HAS been updated (almost daily), you just don't know the address Wink. Kev and a few others have seen peeks at it. And yes school kinda threw a small roadblock at me, I'm graduating May 28th so.. it's been kind of busy. Also I have driving class every night so that's no fun either Wink.

Anyway the launch date in my sig isn't set in stone, that's just the MAX TIME I expect it to take. I already have the database scripts completed and stuff, just putting the pieces together now.

The site isn't complete but the game submission page is done and working (http://unlimited.woogley.net/data/game.php) so you could go ahead and start the contest while I polish up the last parts of the site.
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #85 - Posted 2005-05-02 15:15:21 »

Thanks for the heads up. May 21st it is then.  I see you've been busy on the submission page and this clarifies how the game should be presented (i.e. homepage &| jar &| webstart).  The licencing page is also clear.  We will also need a rules page (No 3rd party libs for 4k, assume LWJGL for 16k, any midi soundbank?, does jar have to have a manifest, etc., Oh & I forgot - duration)  I'll hold off on entry submission until closer to the start.  No hurry, get the school stuff done first.  This will give me time on learning to arrange music, since I will need to stay compatible with the creative commons licence.  Time to tinkle the ivories Cheesy

BTW: Are the left hand menus intended for your private control of the CMS?  If so, should they be generally viewable?

Cheers
Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline woogley
« Reply #86 - Posted 2005-05-02 16:56:44 »

Quote

BTW: Are the left hand menus intended for your private control of the CMS?  If so, should they be generally viewable?


Yes those links are only for the CMS managers (so far myself hehe), and if you clicked one you would need a password Wink. They shouldn't be viewable from that specific page though, I think I included the wrong menu file. Thanks for looking out Smiley
Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #87 - Posted 2005-05-04 20:55:30 »

So who can get the smallest lwjgl window?

Here's my first shot (1760 bytes uncompressed):

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import org.lwjgl.Sys;
import org.lwjgl.opengl.Display;
import org.lwjgl.opengl.DisplayMode;
import org.lwjgl.opengl.GL11;
import org.lwjgl.opengl.glu.GLU;
import org.lwjgl.input.Keyboard;
import org.lwjgl.input.Mouse;

import java.io.IOException;

public class lwjgl16k  {
    boolean running=true;
   
    public lwjgl16k() {
        try {
            DisplayMode currentMode=null;
            DisplayMode modes[] = Display.getAvailableDisplayModes();
            //boolean modeFound = false;
       
            for (int i = 0; i < modes.length; i++) {
                currentMode = modes[i];
                if (currentMode.getWidth() == 640 &&
                    currentMode.getHeight() == 480 &&
                    currentMode.getBitsPerPixel() >= 32) {
                        Display.setDisplayMode(currentMode);
                        //Display.setFullscreen(true);
                        Display.create();
                        //Display.setTitle("mg16k");
                        //Display.setVSyncEnabled(true);
                       
                        break;
                }
            }
        }
        catch (Exception e) {
            //e.printStackTrace(System.err);
        }
       
        GL11.glShadeModel(GL11.GL_SMOOTH);
        GL11.glClearColor(0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f);
        GL11.glClearDepth(1.0);
        GL11.glHint(GL11.GL_PERSPECTIVE_CORRECTION_HINT, GL11.GL_NICEST);
        GL11.glHint(GL11.GL_POLYGON_SMOOTH_HINT, GL11.GL_NICEST);
        GL11.glCullFace(GL11.GL_FRONT);
        //initGL();
        //initGame();
   
        gameLoop();
   
        /** Cleanup */
        Display.destroy();
    }

    private void gameLoop() {

        while (running)
        {
            if (Display.isCloseRequested()) running = false;
            else if (Display.isActive()) {
                handleInput();
                render();
                Display.sync(60);
            }
            else {
                handleInput();
                if (Display.isVisible() || Display.isDirty())
                    render();
            }
            Display.update();
        }
    }  

    private void handleInput() {
        if (Keyboard.isKeyDown(Keyboard.KEY_ESCAPE))
            running = false;
    }

    //private void initGame(){
        // This is the place to load textures, create necessary data, etc.
    //}

    double angle = 0.0d;

    private void render() {
        GL11.glClear(GL11.GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT | GL11.GL_DEPTH_BUFFER_BIT);
   
        GL11.glMatrixMode(GL11.GL_PROJECTION);
        GL11.glLoadIdentity();
        GLU.gluPerspective(60.0f, 4.0f/3.0f, 1, 100);
   
        GL11.glMatrixMode(GL11.GL_MODELVIEW);
        GL11.glLoadIdentity();
        double xpos = 10.0d*Math.sin(angle);
        double zpos = 10.0d*Math.cos(angle);
        GLU.gluLookAt((float) xpos, 0, (float) zpos,  0, 0, 0,  0, 1, 0);
   
        angle += 0.1d;
   
        // Render your scene here
        GL11.glBegin(GL11.GL_TRIANGLES);
            GL11.glVertex3f(0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f);
            GL11.glVertex3f(1.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f);
            GL11.glVertex3f(0.0f, 1.0f, 0.0f);
        GL11.glEnd();
    }
   
    public static void main(String[] args) {
        new mg16k();
    }
}


edit; yabb code tags suck  Cry
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #88 - Posted 2005-05-05 05:48:58 »

Mine's fairly similar.  Slightly different constraints in the search for a suitable display mode & the main class only has a constructor and a loop method to save space.  

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        DisplayMode mode = null;
        try {
            DisplayMode[] modes = Display.getAvailableDisplayModes();
            for (int i = 0; i < modes.length; i++)
                if (modes[i].getWidth() == 800 &&
                    modes[i].getHeight() == 600 &&
                    modes[i].getBitsPerPixel() >= 16 &&
                    modes[i].getFrequency() <= 60) {
                    mode = modes[i];
                    break;
            }
            if (mode == null) {
                System.out.println("Bad Display Mode");
            System.exit(0);
            }
            Display.setDisplayMode(mode);


I generated and displayed a height map to practice openGL.  This came in at less than 4k. Since then it's been parked, since the comp hasn't started yet.  Been thinking about gameplay though Wink  

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #89 - Posted 2005-05-05 07:54:44 »

Why aren't you just using the lwjgl Display utility?
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org.lwjgl.util.Display.setDisplayMode(org.lwjgl.util.Display.getAvailableDisplayModes(640, 480, -1, -1, 16, 32, 60, 85), new String[] {"width=800", "height=600", "bpp="+Display.getDisplayMode().getBitsPerPixel(), "freq=60"}));


Cas Smiley

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