JRE Download Size

[psiegel]

Oh, I don't fear SWT.  I just fear porting a crap load of code already written using AWT/Graphics2D.  I'm definitely willing to spend a couple hundred bucks on a product that will save me the hassle.  And honestly, using the Jet gui was a hell of a lot easier than trudging through websites and docs about gcj.

That said, I might consider gcj and SWT for future products.  I'd like to see some more examples of people going this route first though.  (Read: I'd rather someone else do the hard work for me.)  

[Spiff]

Check out the size of the Windows 1.4.2beta JRE: 1.3MB

[blahblahblahh]

Well, we live in a world where Windows went from 98 to 2000, Solaris 2.8 is marketed as "Solaris 8" and reports 5.8 on a uname, SimCity went from 3000 to 4, and MPEG just missed out version 3 entirely...

I'm expecting Sun to start using complex numbers next...

Oh, hang on... Oracle 8.i...

ROFL...

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[blahblahblahh]

A.F. works on the majority of systems OEM drivers, but that only means 50% or more

Deploying Games On The Internet Essay

This essay has been written before on the 'net by shareware professionals (which I'm not, yet), and probably better than I've done it, but the gist of it should remain the same.

Ah, but Cas, you miss one critically important point...

I'm relying on everyone getting a JRE to play someone else's game, and then I can distribute smaller downloads than even you can with JET (you quote the JAR as being as much as 4Mb compared to JET's 5MB - I choose to see that as "wow; a 1Mb saving" ), and rest assured that most people already have the JRE.

Which is why I'll keep telling people that, since AF was written in Java, it "works better and you can get higher scores - but don't tell anyone" if you play it on a JRE . LOL...

One of the advantages of the glacially slow pace of java releases (1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4) is that client penetration (oo-er!) is cumulative (OO-ER!), perhaps 75% so. So, we just need a few great java games to get those JRE's deployed, and we're away. When asking friends and family to alpha test my game, I find a lot of them are running windows and already have a JRE that can run quite a lot of stuff (assuming they grabbed the VM updates before MS was forced to stop distributing them to people who didn't have the latest VM already). As long as my game runs at all, they happily go and get a real jre.

I suspect this is because of the aforementioned video card drivers situation. If you are an NV user, then you gave up complaining about large and frequent and ESSENTIAL downloads years ago - every game-playing NV owner knows that you get those detonator updates sooner than ASAP, ESPECIALLY if you have any game problems (and you keep the old downloads, because you soon get used to having to downgrade to get half your apps to start working again ).

[Themroc]

If you sell SW on your website, then make another option for the buyer to get the SW with JVM on CD, but ask $10 more for it. Everybody will be happy that they can save the $10 and giggle the whole 30 minutes they need to download the JVM with their modem.

[princec]

For those interested, I will be offering the .JAR version alongside the .EXE version, and I'll be featuring a Get Java button on the website. The JAR version is of course the only one that runs on Linux, too

Same goes for the full game.

Cas

[nech_neb]

Check out the size of the Windows 1.4.2beta JRE: 1.3MB

Ya, I was checking that out !! and couldn't believe my eyes !!!

How does that work?? Did they cut out anything ??

On a side note, it might help their cause if SUN
made the JRE download process a little easier...
I mean, for a amature game designer like myself,
with not enough resources for real web hosting.
I can't serve the JRE along with my Game on
free web folder.

And to make matters worse,
I can't even put up a like that will directly download
a JRE from sun's site for people to click on...

Some people will just get turned away by the.
Fill out your info -> Read all this legal stuff ->
Agree on something you didn't read.

Why can't sun make a 1 click download for the JRE ?
Anyways, just my 2cents.

[jbanes]

Ya, I was checking that out !! and couldn't believe my eyes !!!

How does that work?? Did they cut out anything ??

They didn't cut *too* much. Just the whole JRE. That download is the "online installer" download. When you run the installer, it contacts Sun's site and downloads the rest.

[nech_neb]

They didn't cut *too* much. Just the whole JRE. That download is the "online installer" download. When you run the installer, it contacts Sun's site and downloads the rest.

HAHA ^__^ Okay.... That explains a whole lot...
Silly me. .  



1.4.2 is now 14.1 MBs .....
So much for cutting down the size .....

[Mark Thornton]

At least 1.4.2 was a lot quicker to download and install than the Windows 2000 updates I installed this week (which also required accepting licence agreements).

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[aikarele]

1.4.2 is now 14.1 MBs .....
So much for cutting down the size .....

The size of J2SE 1.4.2 Windows Offline Installation is 13.5 MBs. However, it includes tons of stuff that is not installed unless you choose a custom installation instead of the typical installation. The typical installation does not include non-European languages (18 MBs when installed) and additional font & media support (6 MB when installed), which are all part of the offline installation package.

So you definitely want to use the online installation, if you only want the typical installation...

[nech_neb]

The size of J2SE 1.4.2 Windows Offline Installation is 13.5 MBs. However, it includes tons of stuff that is not installed unless you choose a custom installation instead of the typical installation. The typical installation does not include non-European languages (18 MBs when installed) and additional font & media support (6 MB when installed), which are all part of the offline installation package.

So you definitely want to use the online installation, if you only want the typical installation...

But the problem is with deploying..
the you much make the assumption that the
person you're deploying to have internet connection.
which is a big assumption....

[aikarele]

you much make the assumption that the
person you're deploying to have internet connection.

Yes, it is true that I assumed that download size only matters if you are actually going to download the JRE. If you are installing it from CD-ROM, who cares if it's 5, 10 or 50 megabytes?

[Abuse]

Bigger = Better

Anyhow, theres nothing wrong with artificially bloating downloads.
It gives some motivation for narrowband users to upgrade.
I think its called 'progress'  

[Archimedes]

A good disussion here. Erikd's positions come closest to mine.

What we really needed are some full price games developed in Java. So they fill an entire CD and you still got enough space to bundle the JRE for Macos, Linux and Win32. No hassle with deployment etc. :-)

I see Cas' points on offering the JET compiled Win32 native exe for Internet players.
However from a philosophical point of view this clearly breaks the Java system - which is that Java is the programming language and the VM. Ok, of course you can isolate the pure Java programming language and use it (or vice versa: use Delphi to compile bytecode), but still this isn't Java anymore.

I will try to avoid a compiled exe of my Java applications. :-)

[princec]

Here's an interesting snippet: PomPom have sold almost 50% of their copies to Mac users. That's about 50 times greater than expected.

I want my Mac port, dammit!

Cas

[Archimedes]

Here's an interesting snippet: PomPom have sold almost 50% of their copies to Mac users. That's about 50 times greater than expected.

That's good news.
However I guess it heavily depends on how many units they sold, roughly. I suppose there are no numbers available? (Like they can be found in top ten charts for Playstation/PC games etc).

I want my Mac port, dammit!

A port of which title?

[princec]

LWJGL! Which means all my forthcoming games will Just Work on the Mac too.

Cas

[Archimedes]

LWJGL! Which means all my forthcoming games will Just Work on the Mac too.

Ah, I see. This port you mean.

When I made a game in Java with Jogl, it would run on Win32, Mac, Linux and Solaris? :-)  Psion? No, because no JVM 1.4.2 yet and no OpenGL... ;-)

However back to my first question, there's no rough number on how many units Pompom has been able to sell? Roughly...
Because if they sold, say, 2 units, then 50% Mac users would lead to... 1. Hm... :-)

[swpalmer]

As a new Mac users I can say that it is almost impossible to find games for the Mac in stores.  So the only things I can find are distributed on the net.

There are some really nice games that you ONLY find on the Mac too...  Ottomatic, BugDom II.  But just finding the Mac ports of other titles is next to impossible...  even in an Apple store (if you can find one) the selection is poor.

So I believe it when they say that 50% of their sales are to Mac users... Mac users are desperate.  I know I wouldn't have got my Mac except for the fact that I mostly just use a computer for programming, and I new Apple was keen on Java... that and being desperate for something other than Wintel

Of course now that I've tasted OS X I'm never going back

[Archimedes]

As a new Mac users I can say that it is almost impossible to find games for the Mac in stores.  So the only things I can find are distributed on the net.

I see. Does this mean that all those nice games listed here: http://www.apple.com/games/features/  (many of them have been converted by http://www.aspyr.com/ ) aren't available in most Apple stores?
A pity. :-|

Of course now that I've tasted OS X I'm never going back :)

I heard that many times from new Apple users, so I think it looks like OS X is pretty good.

Sorry for being off-topic (again).

[swpalmer]

Does this mean that all those nice games listed here: http://www.apple.com/games/features/  (many of them have been converted by http://www.aspyr.com/ ) aren't available in most Apple stores?

Yes basically.. I've seen a few games in Apple stores - but I only know of two Apple stores and none are close by.  I keep seeing the Sims expansion packs, but never the full game.. so I can't even get that.  There are a few other ports, an old version of Links (golf) and Wolfenstein 3D in the store I found in Toronto.  If I go to stores like FutureShop/BestBuy  I will see that they have one eMac or iMac on display and NO software for MAc at all... unless it is a title that has Windows and Mac on the same disk... some titles based on QuickTime have both on the same CD.

To stay on topic, I will point out that Mac users usually don't have to download the JRE..  Java 1.3.1 is included with OS X, Java 1.4.1 is a downloadable update from Apple and will be included with OS X 10.3 "Panther" (due this fall) - maybe it will be 1.4.2 by then.  You are NOT allowed to distribute Apple's JRE. So for systems that don't have 1.4 the ONLY way to get it is via Software Update, a built-in program to update components of your system software over the internet.  Much like the Windows Update function.

If OS X users do have to update via the net it is a BIG download, as OS X always includes the JDK, not just a JRE.  I imagine that Apple dealers could update end users, if they don't have a fast enough net connection.

[MGodehardt]

where can i get more information about this embedded license ?

i want to redistribute a jre 1.4.2 where i can decide what i need and make it as small as possible ?

any hints  

[Jeff]

In order to qualify as "embedded Java", the VM has to be distributed in such a way that it is tied to your app and only your app.  It must not make itself available for any other Java content.

Usually "embedded" applications license (for $$) technology they embedded.  If you're ready to spend $$ on it, drop a note to Chris Melissinos and ask for business info.

Otherwise I'd suggest you do one of the following:
(1) Use Java Web Start to coordinate usage of the right JDK.
(2) Write to the 50% of all new PCs (approximate) that are going to start shipping with up to date JDKs  (at this point most of the major vendors have signed up to ship them.)
(3) Write to MSVM 1.1 and be prepared for MSFT to yank it out from under you.
(4) Write a game thats compelling enough that people don't mind a significant download.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

JK

[MGodehardt]

Thanks alot Jeff.

15MB for JRE is tooo big, we dont need Swing and other classes in the rt.jar.

Sun should reduce the size of the rt.jar and make a minum JRE ( for game developers ) with AWT and some base package support.

15MB download ---> is a pain in my <censored> when i use a analog 56k modem

[Jeff]

Thanks alot Jeff.

15MB for JRE is tooo big, we dont need Swing and other classes in the rt.jar.

yes BUT.

If EVERYONE thought that way then  your users would have to download many, many instances of the JRE-- one for each app.  in the end they would spend far MORE time downloading the JRE then getting a complete JRE once that everyone can share.

The fact of the matter is that people were downloading more then 15meg back in the days when  the fastest modem was a 28.8k  one IF they found the content compelling.  The fact of the matter is that 2 of the 5 most popular game downloads  for Win32 on Download.com right now are an order of magnitude larger (about 150meg.)

Finally, you mention classes.  I think if you look at the actual JRE you will find that the native DLLs are  in fact the bulk of the download, not class files.  Some of that could be reduced if the class library was reduced, but its not nearly a 1:1 relation.

[princec]

I've got it down to about 2 and a bit MB, with 7-Zip and a pair of virtual scissors.

Here's the gist of the situation from an indie's perspective:

We'd be all to happy to distribute a JRE in our games if it were small enough but as it is our market is based on small downloads and we'd rather the content was actually bigger than the runtime environment!

The solution we're after is really simple and should benefit everyone in both the short and long term. We want to be able to optionally distribute games with cut-down embedded VMs to get the Java idea out on the "streets" and get our products out there NOW to the audiences we need to target. Being generally tiny clusters of nobodys we have absolutely no way of compelling people to download a JRE because our content is not viewable without the JRE anyway - Catch 22. Even with great reviews all over the internet we're not compelling people to download precisely because we're competing with multi-million-dollar marketing budgets for downloads. The end result for us is the same for Sun: the JRE doesn't get distributed.

But if we're allowed to ship our own embedded VMs relatively easily, Sun can take care of their part of the bargain and get Webstart on computers everywhere. I'm well aware that this is in progress but it's nowhere near complete. (I'm having to bail now because I've run out of money and I can't afford to wait for the big push any more - just bad timing I suppose).

FWIW I'm in talks with Lindows and Mandrake about bundling AF with their OSs. I've been unable to convince Mandrake that they need to have JWS pre-installed by default because I am a lowly worm. If you were to call them up and offer them a little cash injection as an incentive (and GOK they need the cash) I'm pretty sure you'd have another 100,000 JREs in the world in short order. Lindows is looking more promising - they claim to preinstall Java 1.4 and GL drivers as well but I'm going to check this out for myself first.

Apple are quite promising but their VM and OS are proving particularly quirky and troublesome to work with.

Cas

[princec]

Oh and I'd just like to add here - if you can get me the funding to develop Multiple Injury (large online game with that lovely terrain renderer in it and the graphics which are already done can be seen at http://www.puppygames.net/chazeem/portfolio.htm - see that robot? that's the actual game model that is) then you'll have a potential AAA title on your books and get another few hundred thousand VMs distributed right where you want them, on gamers' desktops.

Drop me a line if you know someone with money. Or if Sun gets a change of heart and decides to fund production. We're about a factor of 100 cheaper than a normal development studio and we've written half of it already. Think about it.

Cas

[Preston]

yes BUT.

If EVERYONE thought that way then  your users would have to download many, many instances of the JRE-- one for each app.  in the end they would spend far MORE time downloading the JRE then getting a complete JRE once that everyone can share.

The fact of the matter is that people were downloading more then 15meg back in the days when  the fastest modem was a 28.8k  one IF they found the content compelling.  The fact of the matter is that 2 of the 5 most popular game downloads  for Win32 on Download.com right now are an order of magnitude larger (about 150meg.)

Again I've to agree fully with Jeff.

The majority of game fans is used to download > 100 MB sized game demos. Also they download Antivirus-definitions (3-6 MB) daily and because of Microsoft, 98% of the desktop users load large service packs, bug fixes, IE fixed, Outlocks fixes blablabla every week (on the average every week a strong security hole is being found in IE)...

Of course I wished the JRE would fit in say, 1 KB, but I realize the good old 8 bit days are over. :-)

[princec]

Sadly that's a terribly naive view of the whole games market. Any developer relying on game fans to make a living simply isn't going to remain afloat for long. Game fans are a very small fraction of the total market. The bread and butter sales are what you need, an account of there being 100x more casual gamers than hardcore gamers.

And no, most windows systems remain unpatched.

35% of my game players can't play my game because they haven't bothered to update their drivers, EVER, since they bought their machines, too.

Cas