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Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #270 - Posted 2005-03-22 14:41:43 »

That sound's like your endorsing 1.1 applets.....

Shocked
 Grin
    Tongue
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #271 - Posted 2005-03-22 15:11:12 »

Quote
That sound's like your endorsing 1.1 applets.....


Technical reasons for not working:
1. (accidental?) abuse of fullscreen mode (went fullscreen, died)
2. only supporting BAT files for launching - you have to read the BAT source and manually re-do it to run on any OS other than windows
3. various naughtiness (can't remember precisely what) that makes it not work on a Mac because of less-than-correct code I believe - stuff that you can get away with on windows, for instance, although it's not technically correct
4. hard-coding a dependence on RMB that doesn't work even if you alt-click on Mac Sad
5. ...others too...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #272 - Posted 2005-03-22 17:51:29 »

I'm guessing clickrisk wasn't very linux-friendly, since it's fullscreen... don't know about the others. Oh, and it depends on right-clicks to exit as well... Sorry Smiley
I think kartrisk, fetrisk and fifteen should been working OK though, haven't had the chance to test them on other OS:s than windows.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #273 - Posted 2005-03-22 18:40:10 »

/me makes mental note to get a "java cross-platform compatibility guide" going in near future

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline mlk

Junior Member




Muppet!


« Reply #274 - Posted 2005-03-22 20:07:58 »

I think next year will have a "must be a self executable jar" rule.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #275 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:17:30 »

Quote
/me makes mental note to get a "java cross-platform compatibility guide" going in near future


You know, there was a column to reward the entries that were self-executable. ;-)

In any case, I've merged the scores, forwarded them to Woogley, and posted them online. You can find them at the following links:

DHTML Viewer
Excel Document

The Winners sheet is the totals sorted by score, the Totals sheet is simply the tabulation in alphabetical order, and the other three sheets are the scores given by each judge. Go see if you've won! ;-)

Good work everyone, this was an excellent year!

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #276 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:26:17 »

Quote


You know, there was a column to reward the entries that were self-executable. ;-)


Oh, god, I'm sorry guys. I also note I seem to have screwed-up the music column - it was demarcated 0 or 5 and yet I've put 3 for one game, apparently.

OTOH, some games were (sort of) self executable on some platforms but not others.

/me thinks he needs to issue an errata for his scores Sad

FWIW, none of my corrections would have changed the positions.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #277 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:32:28 »

I'd also like to add...playing these games was a LOT more fun than the multi-million-pound inflight entertainment sysetm on Virgin Atlantic's planes (both ways across the Atlantic).

The fact that most of the 4k games were equal to or better than the stuff that someone was *paid* to put on an airplane, and a good 50% were a LOT better, says a lot for the quality of programming (bear in mind Virgin used to have complete SNES ROMs on their planes...so 4k is rather a long way below the limits of their systems).

PS: the 6-digit numbers in the comments column are for games played at that height above sea-level Grin

PPS: jbanes reckoned some of my scores were "harsh" and I agree. Where I rated stuff down I often didn't want to, but was trying to be fair to all the other competitiors - for instance, seeing as some people had gone to considerable lengths to make the game easy to play (menus, instructions) I couldn't fairly *not* penalise those who hadn't yet whose games needed it.

PPPS: I loved all the 3D games especially. Everything from the ultra-cheap-hack neb4k right up to the 3d tanks and KG games

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #278 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:34:54 »

I got beaten by TETRIS!?
I mean.. er, good job. Wink


And definitly a worthy winner. =)

[edit:]

Premature w00ting. That was just a summary, not the official scores. (?)

Play Minecraft!
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #279 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:37:57 »

Quote
OTOH, some games were (sort of) self executable on some platforms but not others.


That's a new one. Sort of on some platforms? I'm thinking they're either self-executable or their not. Their cross-platform ability to run is a separate issue.

Personally, I think you guys were putting WAY too much emphasis on cross platform ability. It's 4K for crying out loud!

In any case, I thought you guys might find this entry into the Javascript 5K Contest to be of interest. I bumped across it the other day and thought it was pretty neat. See if you can spot why it will never be in color. ;-)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #280 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:42:45 »

Oh, man - there was no scaling of the scores !?!? You've *got* to scale the scores, since there were no formal judging criteria (e.g. 1 == something, 2 == something else, ... 10 == something else).

So...since I was consistently less generous than e.g. Chris, winners are heavily skewed towards those he liked Sad. Couldn't we at least have a scaling factor applied to each judge's scores based on the mean of all the scores they each gave?

Also, reading Chris's comments, wanted to add that I too was annoyed by the massive great popup that a certain author had on their two games.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #281 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:49:09 »

45th place... Sad

fsm=bad
midi=bad
readme=useless

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #282 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:50:24 »

Quote


That's a new one. Sort of on some platforms? I'm thinking they're either self-executable or their not. Their cross-platform ability to run is a separate issue.


IIRC...a couple ran on windows with a double click but not on OS X. I didn't spend long enough to debug them with a debugger and find out why.

Although I did work VERY hard for some because I was desperate not to have at least *played* each and every game. At first, I thought "**** it, if they can't be bothered to make it work neither can I" but then I repented and slaved away to get them working.

But I drew the line at running a debugger or reading source...

Equally, there was at least one where the webstart wouldn't work (turned out to be the apple-employs-morons problem of ignoring the mimetype, I believe).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #283 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:56:09 »

Quote
45th place... Sad
readme=useless


the haphazard submission and judging process meant that we didn't always get the readmes. In two cases I just had to google/jgo-search for them to try and find some info on how to run them - looking back through 17 pages of forum postings for each of two forums isn't feasible when you've got a load of games to test.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #284 - Posted 2005-03-23 11:58:40 »

Congratulations to the winners !!!

Funny to see appreciations of mine (bubble racer)

Gfx -   Gameplay
9      1
10    10
5      5
Shocked

I'm eager to start a new contest 4-5-8-16k - not more please.
Since i've had some funky ideas to try...

Lilian

Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #285 - Posted 2005-03-23 12:04:17 »

Oh, well, at least I didn't get the last place... Smiley
I'm quite content with the results, to be honest, having relatively little programming experience and no experience whatsoever of either contests or making games small.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #286 - Posted 2005-03-23 12:23:47 »

Quote
Oh, man - there was no scaling of the scores !?!? You've *got* to scale the scores, since there were no formal judging criteria (e.g. 1 == something, 2 == something else, ... 10 == something else).


Right now these are just totals. I'm hestitant to call any winners because of the way that secondary scores (e.g. music) heavily skewed the results. (I hadn't considered what happens when you get an automatic 15 for music. ;-)) When I get the chance, I'm going to see if it changes the scores to do an average.

Also, if you judges want to make changes, do it now before these get certified by Woogley and Mlk.

P.S. I just noticed that the XLS file is corrupted. Looks like I accidentally uploaded in ASCII mode. I'll fix it later tonight. Sorry about that. :-)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #287 - Posted 2005-03-23 12:33:05 »

Quote


the haphazard submission and judging process meant that we didn't always get the readmes. In two cases I just had to google/jgo-search for them to try and find some info on how to run them - looking back through 17 pages of forum postings for each of two forums isn't feasible when you've got a load of games to test.


Well, my game was distributed as zip file, which contained the readme, the game jar, two bat files and the graphics file.

Quote
[...]
You need to install a soundbank to play the game with the JRE (JDK/SDK already has one). Grab it here:
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/sound/soundbanks.html

Midsize is enough. Drop the soundbank.gm file into "<jre>/jre/audio/". Usually you'll need to create the "audio" directory first.
[...]

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #288 - Posted 2005-03-23 12:42:39 »

Quote
I got beaten by TETRIS!?
I mean.. er, good job. Wink


Going over the sheets, there's an error in the Chris's sheet that I forgot to correct. Factoring in Blah's mistake, the correct score for Tetris is 48.

Don't feel too bad though. My entry was creamed by MC4K. For some reason the judges felt that constantly sliding off the track was more "fun" than shooting robots from the future. :-(

Ah well, to each their own. :-)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #289 - Posted 2005-03-23 12:54:36 »

I'm happy with 35/50 (Chopper4k).  

Although I've never understood how tetris beats shooting games wrt gameplay....  but then thats just me and tetris Wink not any version of tetris in particular.

I'm just curious what constituted a de-merit though? Or was it different for each game?

Cheers,
Dan.
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #290 - Posted 2005-03-23 13:01:19 »

Quote
Although I've never understood how tetris beats shooting games wrt gameplay....  but then thats just me and tetris Wink not any version of tetris in particular.


Judges could give bonuses or demerits for anything they wanted. So it's pretty much an arbitrary score. :-)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #291 - Posted 2005-03-23 13:11:44 »

Quote


Well, my game was distributed as zip file, which contained the readme, the game jar, two bat files and the graphics file.



BAT files ?!? What am I supposed to do with them Roll Eyes

I thought I read every readme for any game that didn't work, but maybe I missed yours ... which was it again?

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #292 - Posted 2005-03-23 13:16:00 »

Quote
I'm happy with 35/50 (Chopper4k).  

Although I've never understood how tetris beats shooting games wrt gameplay....  


In the end, I believe I gave every tetris game 4/10 for gameplay, a reflection of the fact that although they used 0 effort picking gameplay with any originality or freshness, at least that gameplay didn't suck and they all implemented it faithfully.

There were one or two games with gameplay where I thought "dude, you should have just cloned tetris" because they were simply not fun - then again, I may simply have failed to understand the point of them.

Or...there's labyrinth, which I'm now discovering is quite fun, BUT it requires you have a particular form of mouse and you MUST be playing on windows (doesn't work on Mac, doesn't work on linux - I suspect because of the mouse-grabbing-and-manipulating code is bust). It also is waaaaaaay too sensitive ... a game where you have to run in straight lines deviating by no more than one pixel (sometimes less!) is not tenable on most PC's.

Which is sad, because when I happened to find a PC with a suitably insensitive mouse it became rather fun.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #293 - Posted 2005-03-23 13:25:28 »

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining at all.  I've just never 'got' tetris Wink

I'm not going to push the gamplay issue either cos I think mine was very simplistic Wink  But then I was just happy to get it in 4k.  I wish I'd spent a little more time tidying it up though, executable etc. rather than just rushing it to get it submitted 3 or 4 weeks after doing most of the writing.  Still it was fun.

Will it be possible to see induvidual ratings for games or are just the final avarages going to be displayed?  Also did any of the judges have any individual comments on the games or was it just the scores?

EDIT: doh!!!!! just seen the tabs.  sorry Wink

Dan.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #294 - Posted 2005-03-23 14:05:22 »

>BAT files ?!? What am I supposed to do with them Roll Eyes

How am I supposed to write scripts for other operating systems if I don't have machines with those?

>I thought I read every readme for any game that didn't
>work, but maybe I missed yours ... which was it again?

jm4k

Well, it doesn't matter anyways anymore.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #295 - Posted 2005-03-23 19:57:32 »

Yes, it's puzzling how some judges can award more graphics points for tetris than filledPolygon 3d goodness; mysterious universe indeed....  Roll Eyes

But regardless, thanks to all the judges for the hardwork!

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #296 - Posted 2005-03-23 20:02:15 »

Thank you to the judges and organisers for a really fun competition Smiley  I can't wait for the next one.


To blar*3:

I see you gave my game zero because you couldn't shoot.

Perhaps since you were on a plane you couldn't view my web site?  The game's web site (as linked on http://www.woogley.net/games.html) lists all the control keys, just below the downloads.

I know "UP arrow" isn't exactly intuitive at first.  I originally had it as "Space Bar", but  found that the "Up Arrow" worked nicer since ones right hand is on the arrow keys anyway and they control the turret movement.  I would have had Space as a shoot key as well, but, I couldn't afford the 15 bytes  Wink

Next compo, we definitely need to have some sort of standardised readme format that is submitted with the games.  I would have zipped a readme with my .jar but didn't like the idea of my distribution file being over 4k.  I hindsight I should have offered a downloadable readme on my web site.

Cheers,

Will.

Offline mlk

Junior Member




Muppet!


« Reply #297 - Posted 2005-03-23 22:11:25 »

re: Stag4K
Blah^h, I take it on a mac? Its odd that it crashed on yours, as it seams to work ok on mine (very very old). Any idea why?
No game? I'm sorry, but it had as much of a game as any other "shoot wave after wave of baddys". I agree it was not great, but I found that comment odd.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #298 - Posted 2005-03-23 23:26:57 »

It might be interesting to see the sorted scores from each judge as well.

One thing I found frustrating was having to hunt down info in the forums and such.  If I couldn't figure out how to launch it easily that probably influenced the score by more than the one point for 'executable'.  I was very liberal with awarding that point though.  If I started it without significant effort (basically JNLP or executable JAR) then it got that point.  If I went to the command line and had to type then it was 0.

As for graphics...  There were a few games with very simple graphics but they were very well done.  They may not have had the fancy 3d algorithms, but they looked good for that particular type of game.  I also factored animation quality into the graphics score.

I do think that the scores from each judge should be weighted against the mean from that judge in some way so as to give equal weight to each judges score.  Onbe judge scoring all games near the high end vs. another scoring all near the low end should not result in the first judge overruling the second.

Some ideas for the next contest:

- Make ALL games use the same delivery method, JNLP or executable JAR.
- In the case of excutable jar, have the size all games based on a submitted jar with no signing or manifest info.
- Host all games on the same site - with the exception of games requiring an online server. If the game can be judged properly with a local server, then set up two JNLPs , one for server, one for client.. so that both run on localhost
- Make binary scores quantitative so that all judges must agree on the same score for those criteria - e.g. executable yes/no
- Add scores for runs on Windows/Linux/Mac...  0-2, 2 = runs perfectly, 1= runs with some problems, 0 = not playable.  (e.g. for Blahs troubles with the mouse sensitivity on Linux/Mac he would score a 1, but on Windows where it ran well score a 2)
- Crashes/Exceptions that should have been avoidable, (even without specific platforms to test on) should count against the entry in a significant way.
- Platform specific issues are different, since all participants won't have access to all platforms, and cost at most 1-2 points based on above "does it run?" criteria.

- Have 2 rounds of judging... allowing the participants to correct issues after round one.  Final score will be taken from round 2.

- Have more judges, perhaps with automated online registration and submision of scores.

- Score gameplay/graphics based on a ranking system instead of arbitrary score.  E.g. judges must put the games in order of best gameplay to worst gameplay, best graphics to worst graphics.  Do not allow ties from a single judge (ties can still happen as a result of adding the scores from all judges together).  This then avoids the situation where one judge scores in the 5-10 range, and another scores in the 0-5 range for all entries thus skewing the overal weight of one judge's opinions.

Anyway, those are some random thoughts...  some of them may be dumb Smiley

Offline mlk

Junior Member




Muppet!


« Reply #299 - Posted 2005-03-24 00:40:09 »

Right, anyone that want dukes, post in the forum.java thread, and I'll hand 'em out.

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