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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #210 - Posted 2005-03-04 20:45:51 »

Quote
about not wanting to double-check if their are unsigned jars that meet the 4k... it won't be me checking. I've done alot already


I appreciate it!  And thanks to JBanes for the spreadsheet.  I just pointed it out as an example of something that not all the judges would need to do independently.  Just trying to help things run smoothly.  I will verify the size.

Next time I think Webstart should be a requirement, just because it makes the testing go faster and improves the web page when all entries work the same way.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #211 - Posted 2005-03-05 01:49:13 »

Quote
And thanks to JBanes for the spreadsheet.


You're welcome. :-)

Quote
Next time I think Webstart should be a requirement, just because it makes the testing go faster and improves the web page when all entries work the same way.


The problem with Webstart is that doing anything complex requires a rather massive signature. That signature in turn generates a complete Manifest file which costs the developer dearly. Worse yet, it's difficult for the judges to verify the size without downloading each JNLP, finding the necessary filenames, and then downloading a non-executable file.

A much better option is to require an executable JAR for judging. Downloading is simple (Save As..., place in a "to be judged" folder), size can be easily verified, and execution is as simple as double-clicking. The only down side is that Applet games would be excluded. (The first 4K contest was 90%+ applets. However, this competition only has one or two applets, so I don't think it would be a big concern.)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #212 - Posted 2005-03-05 02:06:15 »

I like the idea of self-executing .jars for the 4K compo, it's a nice complete package with no external resources like JNLP descriptors.  JNLP is a great way people can test your game, but for official entries I personally feel they should be judged on the 4K package.

For 16K with an OpenGL library as an extension, webstart makes much more sense as the "official" distribution format.  And if a signed .jar is compulsary then everyone is on a level playing field and as a percentage, the signing of a 16K .jar is much lower than 4K.

Will.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #213 - Posted 2005-03-05 16:04:13 »

Quote

The problem with Webstart is that doing anything complex requires a rather massive signature. That signature in turn generates a complete Manifest file which costs the developer dearly. Worse yet, it's difficult for the judges to verify the size without downloading each JNLP, finding the necessary filenames, and then downloading a non-executable file.

A much better option is to require an executable JAR for judging. Downloading is simple (Save As..., place in a "to be judged" folder), size can be easily verified, and execution is as simple as double-clicking. The only down side is that Applet games would be excluded. (The first 4K contest was 90%+ applets. However, this competition only has one or two applets, so I don't think it would be a big concern.)


I agree.  Webstart has far too much overhead.  Whereas double click execution doesn't add much.  Even for 16k, webstart adds a lot.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #214 - Posted 2005-03-05 16:47:47 »

I'm a bit confused, so a couple of questions (and I'd appreciate it if I could get this sorted out wihin the next 12 hours, see below)

- Who's actuallly in charge of the contest? I need to know mainly because I need to know who to bug if I encounter strange problems when judging, or have queries, etc. I thought it was de facto mlk, but then it seemed to have moved to woogley, and then away again. Um...?

- When does the judging have to take place? How long have we got? etc...

- what do we do with our scores when we have them? Post them on the forums? Send them to someone in particular?

Because... in approximately 36 hours time I'm getting on a plane for 12 hours to get to the GDC. That would be a damn good time to play all the J4K entries back-to-back. But it's already several days since the comp finished, so ... is this too late?

If all goes to plan, I'll be meeting up with ChrisM in person next week, so we could possibly put some time aside to swap notes etc then - but, again, is this delaying things too much?

And ... I'm meeting a lot of people at the GDC, quite a few of whom would probably like to see the complete entries. If I do that, it would be nice to include that in my scores, e.g. if they discover a feature of a game that I just failed to notice etc. But that would delay posting results until 16th March or so (get back from GDC, go through jetlag, etc).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #215 - Posted 2005-03-05 16:53:52 »

Quote

The problem with Webstart is that doing anything complex requires a rather massive signature. That signature in turn generates a complete Manifest file which costs the developer dearly. Worse yet, it's difficult for the judges to verify the size without downloading each JNLP, finding the necessary filenames, and then downloading a non-executable file.


For this year, sure. I'm not going to have time to do that AND go through all the games and give them a good going-over.

But, for next year, anything hosted on JGF can have all the above automated trivially. Especially since JGF generates JNLP's on-the-fly (with some intelligent timestamping to interact with webstart's versioning), and by then will probably be generating manifests on the fly when asked to (I've already mostly got that, thanks to doing jardiff's automatically, which involves parsing and processing manifests on-the-fly).

So ... I'd say they should all be webstarted, but that the webstarting doesn't count to the limit.

IMHO: the distribution mechanism is NOT part of the game. Executable-jar is, technically, part of the game-as-binary, although you could argue it's only being put there to aid with the distribution. Webstart, OTOH, is very much a distribution mechanism. You wouldn't include the webpage that hte game is downloade from in the 4k limit, so you shouldn't include the webstart bumph either.

Hmm...there's a thought...a "complete game" compo where the website + screenshots etc are included in the limit. Ah, I'm evil Cool

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #216 - Posted 2005-03-06 12:56:54 »

Quote
- Who's actuallly in charge of the contest? I need to know mainly because I need to know who to bug if I encounter strange problems when judging, or have queries, etc.


I generally defer to Mlk as the de facto source, simply because he's hosting the contest. Woogley has done a lot of work on the contest as well, so I generally take what he says as long as it's not challenged by Mlk.

Unfortunately, we've almost got a "contest by commitee" going on. It's working suprisingly well despite itself, but you may find yourself having to flag entries and coming back to discuss them with JGO as a whole.

Quote
- When does the judging have to take place? How long have we got? etc...


I think Woogley said something about March 7th, but I don't think there's actually a deadline.

Quote
- what do we do with our scores when we have them? Post them on the forums? Send them to someone in particular?


You can forward the completed spreadsheets to me. I'll combine them into a final spreadsheet that contains each of your sheets, plus a final tally. (I hereby solomnly swear to execute my duties without cheating, etc., etc., etc.) I'll then forward the spreadsheet to Woogley so he can post it on his site.

Quote
IMHO: the distribution mechanism is NOT part of the game. Executable-jar is, technically, part of the game-as-binary, although you could argue it's only being put there to aid with the distribution. Webstart, OTOH, is very much a distribution mechanism. You wouldn't include the webpage that hte game is downloade from in the 4k limit, so you shouldn't include the webstart bumph either.


You're ignoring the signature, though. The JNLP file doesn't count right now, either. However, the gigantic signature that must be placed on a file to make fullscreen, networking, and other features work *does* count. And I don't think there's really any fair way to make it not count. i.e. You could recompress the file without the signaure to see if it falls below 4K, but what if you use a different compressor?

Also, using webstart forgoes some of the shock value of telling people that the game is written in 4K. When they download the file for themselves and can see that it's 4,023 bytes (or whatever), then they are truely impressed at what both the programmer and Java can do. With Webstart they never see the file. As a result, it never becomes "real" to them that the game is 4K.

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline mlk

Junior Devvie




Muppet!


« Reply #217 - Posted 2005-03-06 13:42:48 »

Quote
- Who's actuallly in charge of the contest?

Er, no idea/"the commuity"/Woogly&I?

As long as I can spend loads of dukes, play funky games and anounce it each year I'm happy. Smiley

Quote
I need to know mainly because I need to know who to bug if I encounter strange problems when judging, or have queries, etc. I thought it was de facto mlk, but then it seemed to have moved to woogley, and then away again. Um...?

Feel free to drop me an email if you have a query, I think you have my address, if not I have a gmx.co.uk account. Same username as here.
Idealy, items should be discussed, and agreed on by the community, with either Woogly or I  giving a final judgement. Thou, it up to the community... Cheesy

Quote
 - When does the judging have to take place? How long have we got? etc...

- what do we do with our scores when we have them? Post them on the forums? Send them to someone in particular?

Woogly has offered to agrigate the scores, so email him. I think he wants them by 8th.

Quote
Because... in approximately 36 hours time I'm getting on a plane for 12 hours to get to the GDC.

Lucky man, have fun.

I wish I was going Embarrassed , the game design challage sounds really cool.

Quote
If all goes to plan, I'll be meeting up with ChrisM in person next week, so we could possibly put some time aside to swap notes etc then - but, again, is this delaying things too much?
I don't think so, and think it would be a Good Thing™.

I'm in no hurry to see the final scores, is anyone in a rush to do so?

I'll go through each of the entrys Monday night, and check that they area all under 4k.

Offline mlk

Junior Devvie




Muppet!


« Reply #218 - Posted 2005-03-06 14:00:38 »

Quote

You're ignoring the signature, though. The JNLP file doesn't count right now, either. However, the gigantic signature that must be placed on a file to make fullscreen, networking, and other features work *does* count. And I don't think there's really any fair way to make it not count. i.e. You could recompress the file without the signaure to see if it falls below 4K, but what if you use a different compressor?


My plan for tomorrow night is thus:
If they only offer one Jar (webstarted or not), and its over 4k, I'll try to make it under 4k (I'm nice like that), by removing the manifest & zipping with kzip. But I'm not going to be putting too much effort into doing so.
If they offer two jars (one signed for webstart, and one unsigned), i'll unzip the contents of both, and run a diff over all the conetent bar the manifest file.

I'll then post the results here, and (if webstarted/includes a .bat/.sh file) I'll post the default params.

Quote
Also, using webstart forgoes some of the shock value of telling people that the game is written in 4K. When they download the file for themselves and can see that it's 4,023 bytes (or whatever), then they are truely impressed at what both the programmer and Java can do. With Webstart they never see the file. As a result, it never becomes "real" to them that the game is 4K.

Tis a good point.

Offline woogley
« Reply #219 - Posted 2005-03-06 17:49:46 »

Quote
I thought it was de facto mlk, but then it seemed to have moved to woogley, and then away again. Um...?


Mlk runs the  contest,  but I'm in charge of making the games officially part of the contest and showcasing them on a site, hence the new site I'm making.

Quote

- When does the judging have to take place? How long have we got? etc...


I said last week I'd like the results on the 8th. But seeing as two judges are both heading to GDC, I dont see a problem with extending the date to say.. the 10th? I think that's a wednesday. Any thoughts on that?

Quote

- what do we do with our scores when we have them? Post them on the forums? Send them to someone in particular?


Like I said last week, please PM them to me so I can take a numerical average of all judges' scores Smiley
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #220 - Posted 2005-03-06 20:37:37 »

Must I come up with a clear #1, #2, and #3?

So far it looks like I will have a favorite, but I'm finding that for one reason or another a lot of my scores are coming out very close.  That is, not many of the entries suck, and there aren't many that stand out as being a lot better than the others.  I'm not saying that they are all mediocre Smiley ... just that there are quite a few that are impressive.
Judging is hard.

I will probably have to go back over the scores when I am done and try to break a lot of ties, or 'stretch' the scores out to get a greater point spread.

Offline jojoh

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 8


games4j.com


« Reply #221 - Posted 2005-03-06 21:02:06 »

Quote

I will probably have to go back over the scores when I am done and try to break a lot of ties, or 'stretch' the scores out to get a greater point spread.

I can understand you are having a hart time judgin  Smiley Don't think you should artificially stretch scores, since that might be taken care of by weighting together votes from all judges.

Offline woogley
« Reply #222 - Posted 2005-03-06 22:12:50 »

Quote
Must I come up with a clear #1, #2, and #3?

no.. vote how you want. Don't worry if a game has the same score as another game.. because the other judges might have different scores for the games. That's the point of having 3 judges and taking the average of each score Wink

Quote

I will probably have to go back over the scores when I am done and try to break a lot of ties, or 'stretch' the scores out to get a greater point spread.

Don't try to break any ties.. if you think some games are equally good, then vote like that. Just because it's a tie in your scores doesn't mean it'll average out to the same result. In the end, after the averaging, the only tie breaker will be for first place. All other ties will remain ties.
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #223 - Posted 2005-03-07 14:25:13 »

Just a quick update, I have ChrisM's scores. As soon as swpalmer and blah^3h return theirs (no hurry guys), I'll forward them to woogley for posting. :-)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline mlk

Junior Devvie




Muppet!


« Reply #224 - Posted 2005-03-08 01:33:29 »

I've just finished a quick test of all the entrys:

Notes:
Collapse4k & Late4k
<property name="webstarted" value="true" />

Dungeon4k
<argument>nofullscreen</argument>

MC4k
Checked manually (due to two version existing):
Old: 3866
New: 3991
No signed versions.
Both webstart jnlp files had: <property name="webstarted" value="true" />

jm4k
Checked manually (due to shellscript not not liking external resources): 4094
run_16bit.bat
::::::::::::::
java -cp .;jm4k.jar D any arguments will do the trick Smiley
::::::::::::::
run_32bit.bat
::::::::::::::
java -cp .;jm4k.jar D

Lander
NOTE: this does NOT run without any params! While strickly invalid, I'll let the judges make the final call.

Lander_FullScreen.bat
::::::::::::::
java -jar lander.jar 1
::::::::::::::
Lander_Windowed.bat
::::::::::::::
java -jar lander.jar 0

Pang4k
Checked manually (due to multiply versions):
Pang4K.jar (webstarted): 5747
Pang4Kfba.jar: 4070
Pang4Ktba.jar: 4361

Only the Pang4Kfba.jar is valid!

Robotron 4096
java.dnsalias.com down when I attempted to download.
Check manually: 4096

Tilt4k
<property name="sun.java2d.noddraw" value="true"/>

Automated Results
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Entry          No. Of Jars          Results
4ktris          Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /TFps.class
ball4k          Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /R.class
blast           Two File        Passed
bombnet         One File        Passed
bubbleracer     Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /B.class
chopper4k       One File        Failed! Too Large!
city4k          Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /R.class
clickrisk       One File        Passed
collapse4k      One File        Passed
combat4k        One File        Passed
dungeon4k       One File        Passed
fetrisk4k       One File        Failed! Too Large!
fifteen4k       One File        Failed! Too Large!
gridblaster4k   One File        Passed
gridrunnerx     Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /G.class
hack4k          Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /H.class
hunters4k       One File        Passed
kartrisk        One File        Failed! Too Large!
kick4k          Two File        Passed
labyrinth       Two File        Passed
lander4k        One File        Passed
late4k          One File        Passed
mc4k            Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /MC.class
meatfighter4k   One File        Passed
neb4k           Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /Designer$Lev
el.class
onet            Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /O.class
pengo4k         Two File        Failed: Small file not under 4096
puzzleballs4k   One File        Passed
rest14k         Two File        Passed
rotbs4k         Two File        Passed
secretcolors4k  Two File        Passed
shot4k          Two File        Passed
slalom          One File        Passed
snakez          Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /S.class
sonicracer      One File        Failed! Too Large!
stagparty4k     One File        Passed
stardodger      Two File        Passed
stepstones      One File        Passed
swarm           Two File        Passed
t4k             Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /t4k.class
territory       One File        Passed
testFail        One File        Failed! Too Large!
tetris          One File        Passed
tilt4k          Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /G.class
trek4k          One File        Passed
trooper         Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /T.class
trucker         Two File        Passed
wumppus         One File        Passed


I've done a few tests, and signing jars does not change any of the class files. So it looks like a number of people updated one without updating the other. Will the judges please insure they have the downloadable 4k version.

The size failers, unzipping, removing manifest and kzipping gives me:
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chopper4k:    4022
fetrisk4k:    3705
Fifteen:    2979
kartrisk:    3519
pengo4k:    5179
sonicracer:    3913



Test Code:
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#!/bin/bash

function size() {
    ls -l $1 | cut -c34-42
}


function testOne() {
    FILE=`ls`
    echo -n -e "\tOne File\t"

    if [ `size $FILE` -gt 4096 ]; then
      echo "Failed! Too Large!"
    else
      echo "Passed"
    fi
}


function testTwo() {
    echo -n -e "\tTwo File\t"
    _TMP=`ls -m`
    F1=`echo $_TMP | cut -d, -f1 `
    F2=`echo $_TMP | cut -d, -f2 `

    if [ `size $F1` -lt `size $F2` ]; then
      SMALL=`echo $F1`
      LARGE=`echo $F2`
    else
      SMALL=`echo $F2`
      LARGE=`echo $F1`
    fi
    if [ `size $SMALL` -gt 4096 ]; then

      echo "Failed: Small file not under 4096"
      return;
    fi
    mkdir small large
    unzip $SMALL -d small/ >/dev/null
    unzip $LARGE -d large/ >/dev/null
    rm -rf small/meta-inf/
    rm -rf large/meta-inf/
    LARGE_FILES=`find large/`
    SMALL_FILES=`find small/`
    if [ `echo $LARGE_FILES | wc -l` -ne `echo $SMALL_FILES | wc -l` ]; then
      echo "Failed: Webstart content differ"
    else
      OK="1"
      for file in `echo $LARGE_FILES`; do
          if [ ! -d $file ]; then
            if ! diff -q $file ${file/large/small} >/dev/null 2> /dev/null; then
                OK=${file/large/}
                break
            fi
          fi
      done
      if [ $OK = "1" ]; then
          echo "Passed"
      else
          echo "Failed: Webstart content differ -- $OK"
      fi
    fi
    rm -rf large small
}

function length() {
    echo `echo $1 | awk '{ print length( $0 )   }'`
}

for of in `ls -1`; do
    if [ -d $of ]; then
      cd $of
      echo -n $of
      if [ `length $of` -lt 8 ]; then echo -n -e "\t"; fi
      if [ `ls | wc -l` -ne 1 ]; then
          testTwo $of
      else
          testOne $of
      fi
      cd ..
    fi
done

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 319
Projects: 25
Exp: 22 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #225 - Posted 2005-03-08 05:25:10 »

Most of my webstarts include levels designers and such. I assumed the judging would be done on the non-webstarted versions?

EDIT: Infact, the process I'm using to make my webstarts is modifing the class files (they all seem to be modified on your list). Just use the 4k download jars.

EDIT2: As a side note, the webstarts are actually all the same versions.

EDIT3: What the hell am I talking about. My work flow doesn't compress the versions that go into the webstart at all Smiley

Kev

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 19
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #226 - Posted 2005-03-08 06:24:21 »

Quote
I've just finished a quick test of all the entrys:

Notes:

[...]
Dungeon4k
<argument>nofullscreen</argument>
[...]


Huh? That argument is in no way required to run the game, and is only used to make the webstartable version possible.

Play Minecraft!
Offline dsellars

Junior Devvie




Need to write more games


« Reply #227 - Posted 2005-03-08 07:31:48 »

Re chopper 4k failing.

which version did you try?  I posted 2.  one was just a jar that needed a java -cp chopper4k.ar C to run.  I'm pretty sure that this should be in the size limit. (it was late when I sorted it out though Sad I thought it was exactly 4096 actually)  I tought this would be regarded as the 'entry'.  grrr I can't download it and check it at work, shouldn't have had a manifest in it though.  

The other was a webstart (which was too big) just for convenience.

Sorry to cause trouble with this.  

Quote

The size failers, unzipping, removing manifest and kzipping gives me:
1  
2  
3  
4  
5  
6  
chopper4k:    4022 
fetrisk4k:    3705
Fifteen:    2979
kartrisk:    3519
pengo4k:    5179
sonicracer:    3913

 

Does this mean that it's ok to be considered an entry now?

Regards,
Dan.


edit: I'm actually supprised that it got down to 4022
Offline jojoh

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 8


games4j.com


« Reply #228 - Posted 2005-03-08 07:46:41 »

Quote

MC4k
Checked manually (due to two version existing):
Old: 3866
New: 3991
No signed versions.
Both webstart jnlp files had: <property name="webstarted" value="true" />


Good work!

Regarding my parameter in webstart. Just a copy and paste bonus  Smiley Parameter is not needed, not used and now removed. Thanks for pointing that out.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #229 - Posted 2005-03-08 12:02:20 »

I am almost done.  I just have to go back and try a few games that I had trouble with before.

I also think my interpretation of "executable" was perhaps too open.  I gave 1 point to anything I didn't have to think about to start Smiley  so JNLP or double clickable JAR were treated equally.   If I needed to use the shell, I gave 0 for executable.

Anyway...
I can't get Bombnet 4k to run.  It's getting a zero from me unless someone points out where I'm going wrong.  It says it is client/server, following the instructions to start the server I get:
scotts-laptop:~/Public/downloads scottpalmer$ java -cp bombnet4k.jar m  
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: main

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of instructions to start the client, except for a vague reference to making a web page and using the same 'm' class as an applet.  Minus a lot of points for not providing the HTML.

Offline pb33

Junior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #230 - Posted 2005-03-08 13:45:58 »

Quote

Automated Results
1  
2  
Entry          No. Of Jars          Results
4ktris          Two File        Failed: Webstart content differ -- /TFps.class



Why are you taking into consideration a file that was never submitted into the contest?!? Please see my original post back on page 11 which mentions that the jnlp version have an extra feature!!! (and also my later post where I explicitly mention that it is the
http://www.woogley.net/j4k/4ktris/4ktris-1.0.jar that should be judged)

Petr Angry
Offline me

Senior Devvie


Projects: 4


Java games rock!


« Reply #231 - Posted 2005-03-08 15:18:32 »

@swpalmer

Thank you for taking the time to investigate my entry.

I'm sorry to read that it didn't work for you.
This project started as a client server project where the server was hosted on my server. Due to bandwidth limitations (at the time) I had to take it off   Sad

The  'step' for making the html file was on the documentation page. The missing main was not a problem to run from the jdk that I had installed on my linux server. The method was omitted to gain more space  Wink

I understand that it would be too much to ask to test it with a webserver hosting the html file. It is not required but without it the server application could be used to hack your server-machine.... Feel free to rule a zero for the entry because of this!

I personally enjoyed making both client and server in the 4k limit which was reward enough for me!

Again, thank you for taking the time!

Regards from
M.E.



M.E.
--------
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #232 - Posted 2005-03-08 16:34:26 »

Quote
Most of my webstarts include levels designers and such. I assumed the judging would be done on the non-webstarted versions?

Kev


so far, i've only been able to judge those who had jars. none of your games had jars on the page with all the webstarts (at least, i couldnt find the links)

I put them all in my jws cache, but ... then I changed laptops because my battery broke, so I only have the jar versions that I could copy from laptop to laptop with me.

I'll tyr playing some @ lunch at the GDC, now that I've got wireless access here int he convention center.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #233 - Posted 2005-03-08 16:40:29 »

Quote
Re chopper 4k failing.

which version did you try?  I posted 2.  one was just a jar that needed a java -cp chopper4k.ar C to run.


FYI: this really really annoyed me when testing. So far, I've only run approx 15-20 of the entries, partly because I couldn't find JAR's of the others (c.f previous post and my unforseen need to change laptop at last moment).

But the rest ... this is the 21st century, I'm running OS X that *doesn't have a command prompt* and when you double click a JAR file there is no way of telling if it failed because there was no manifest, or if it failed because the JAR is broken, or any number of other problems (without hassle).

Obviously, since the rules allowed it, this won't affect my scores. But it does annoy me intensely that a lot of games want to be started with command lines like:

java -cp a.jar Z

Z? WTF?

I 100% understand *why* you've done this, but doesn't change the fact that it's really annoying Sad.

Also, the fact that I had to save + copy the files meant I didn't bother picking up the HTML for each - so those with very very bad choices of keys I've given up on playing for now, until I have time to sit down with a net conenction. Unbelievably dumb kb settings in some of them (e.g. one which uses spacebar not for fire, but for "suicide this life").

And just gave up on the two applets entirely (will have to come back to them later).

Shrug. I think that post-contest a lot of these games will make java look bad unless their authors fix them to be more user-friendly - most people will get bored with lots of games that either don't work or are incomprehensible.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #234 - Posted 2005-03-08 16:43:16 »

Quote

I said last week I'd like the results on the 8th. But seeing as two judges are both heading to GDC, I dont see a problem with extending the date to say.. the 10th? I think that's a wednesday. Any thoughts on that?


Maybe, *if* I manage to do the rest today, or you want only 50% of the entries judged (the ones that ran easily without jumping through hoops, as noted above).

Once the conference starts in earnest, at 8am tomorrow morning, I'll have practically no free time until saturday morning. So, I'll be getting through the other entries in dribs and drabs. I might get them all done by friday evening, if not ... then I dont have net access again til sunday evening Sad.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #235 - Posted 2005-03-08 17:49:09 »

Quote
I'm running OS X that *doesn't have a command prompt*...


Huh?  I've never seen a version of OS X that didn't have a command prompt. (Terminal).  Are you using a restricted user account?  Or are you just complaining because Mac users don't use the command prompt?

I agree with the backwards launching though.  I figured everyone would use webstart since the JNLP doesn't count toward the limit.  The only significant restriction that comes to mind if you don't sign the jar would be no full screen mode, which wouldn't matter much to me in the judging.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #236 - Posted 2005-03-08 18:05:18 »

Quote
I've never seen a version of OS X that didn't have a command prompt. (Terminal).  Are you using a restricted user account?


It's possible that someone dragged Terminal.app into the trash can and emptied it. But just in case Blah is looking in the wrong place, Terminal is usually found in:

/Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app

Using Finder, you need to navigate to the main hard disk, then to the Applications folder, then to the Utilities folder, then double click on Terminal. That should bring up tcsh, although bash is installed on many systems.

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #237 - Posted 2005-03-08 18:16:40 »

Quote


It's possible that someone dragged Terminal.app into the trash can and emptied it..


Um, yes, turns out that is what happened (don'[t know who did it, but I know the main users of this laptop use a kb shortcut to get terminal up - although, being a mac, it's next to impossible to findout what that is).

thanks for the advice, jb, although yes I did already know how to run terminal like that. That's a lot of hassle, though, and is something you *never do* when running apps on OS X - you click things, they run. I have met *many* OS X users who complain it is impossible to run java in CLI (even java programmers who use OS X) because they simply don't know about the terminal (presumably?).

The complaint was more about "this is NOT how java is supposed to be deployed, and is a real bitch on some platforms" and "I can't be bothered; i'll wait till I can use the web to populate my webstart cache" (um, hope OS x has a jws cache) rather than "I personally can't work out how to do it"

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 19
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #238 - Posted 2005-03-08 18:35:21 »

Quote
The only significant restriction that comes to mind if you don't sign the jar would be no full screen mode, which wouldn't matter much to me in the judging.


Hunters4k also requires a java.awt.Robot. Those require some kind of fancy permission.
(that's why Dungeon4k has a webstart, and Hunters4k doesn't)

Play Minecraft!
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #239 - Posted 2005-03-08 19:37:08 »

Quote
thanks for the advice, jb,


No problem. :-)

Quote
(um, hope OS x has a jws cache) rather than "I personally can't work out how to do it"


Yes. Although Webstart Desktop integration is a little "weird". As in the cool kind of weird. If you tell Webstart to integrate the application with the desktop, it goes ahead and creates a complete .APP folder for the application! You can even redistribute this app so that your customers will always have the latest and greatest version! How cool is that? ;-)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
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