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  Why Java, not C++?  (Read 14118 times)
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Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #60 - Posted 2005-01-09 17:53:10 »

Quote
- ..how close without the memmaping (stream it instead) and without the structs (using the various hand-written simulations that several of us have done, which only differ in not being specially treated by the jvm)?

Provided the format is 'convenient' to parse, and you set the heap parameters so that the minimum size is large enough for all the data to be loaded, then the operation is not far short of I/O bound.

At the moment I am parsing NavTech SIF+ files (geographic data) at a rate of about 60MB/s. This is the rate measured against the uncompressed file size. The data is actually held in a ZIP file and decompressed on the fly (using the usual java.util.zip classes). My machine is an AMD 2500+. I am creating objects for every record in the file (usually quite a few objects per record).
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #61 - Posted 2005-01-09 18:10:03 »

Quote

Provided the format is 'convenient' to parse, and you set the heap parameters so that the minimum size is large enough for all the data to be loaded, then the operation is not far short of I/O bound.

At the moment I am ...


So, on PC architectures, your experience is it doesn't matter? That was what I thought. No-one was adamant it was a problem on PC, although it seemed an assumption no-one ever bothered querying ("we have to do this on consoles all the time anyway, so we just do it on PC too because...why bother not doign it?") which makes sense given it's not hard to do.

Still wondering about consoles...could be pretty nasty to get a JVM on consoles and then find it sucked so badly that it just gave java a useless rep all over again Smiley.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #62 - Posted 2005-01-09 18:32:09 »

Quote
Catharsis,

The AI engine I'm working on is still in the design and analysis stage.  All I have is a first draft of an UML design and some test code written in C++.  I'm a little

From when is UML used outside of universities?
Quote

Let's take for example a space battle that requires many space vehicles to be in combat with each other.  If the environment changes, for example the battle migrates into an asteroid belt, the vehicles will have to adapt to the new environment. (Recognize that an asteroid is not an enemy space vehicle, but it has to be able to navigate around it.)


Adapt recognize?
Weren't the pilots trained before? Or they don't teach on naval academy don't fly into that stone when there is 1000^3 km free space.
Actually that US pilots in Italy flew too near an object as well. When they were at US trial US gov didn't claim they wanna show thamselves to other pilot, they claimed they had bad maps.

Quote
To make this post somewhat appropriate to this thread, I wonder if I could develop such a sophisticated design using Java.  I like the language very much and have been asking questions (in another forum) about Java and 3D.  There are games perfect for Java.  But games that require lots of mathematically calculations done by the CPU as well as the GPU ... I wonder?

I appreciate your inquiry.  Wish me luck! Smiley

It reminds me of my game 3 million + stars planets round them and that fleets...
I designed it to be interesting even after 15 years so I have time.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #63 - Posted 2005-01-09 18:43:28 »

Quote

From when is UML used outside of universities?


It is 90% used outside universities. In fact, probably more than that - universites account for almost none of hte UML usage. It's a mainstream tool for planning software development; certain industries (like games industry) don't use it very much, more because of ignorance or fear or laziness or simple lack of competent management than because they don't need it. This is slowly changing, with increasing numbers of games dev jobs requiring UML expertise.

If you want to know more about UML usage, there's some threads in the Tools Discussion forum here.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

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« Reply #64 - Posted 2005-01-09 19:53:44 »

I'm good and lazy, and plenty fearful of newfangled ideas when I appear to be doing just fine without them Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #65 - Posted 2005-01-09 21:14:33 »

Quote
Ok this is my first post.
I'm old salt.  Once my friends called me Bjarny because of my in-depth knowledge of C/C++.  But I pretty much do everything in Java these days.  And the everything is high performance computing - in java.
My .02 on the performance argument.  For pure number crunching, a native compiled language will always win.  It doesn't matter how good the optimizer is, because the best optimizer is the developer, and if you hand code optimized stuff in C/C++, it will always out perform Java.  And you can code directly to your hardware too...

Have you tried assembly? Properly complied assembly could outperform C++ easily. (When C++ doesn't produce the same code, often it don't.)
Quote

Flames on!  But a game isn't all about blitting as fast as you can, right?  All the optimizations that are often forgotten from the C/C++ world can be applied in the Java world.

Sometimes optimalizations from C++ are harmfull to Java.  Remember the Iverse Square root optimalization? Now try it in Java. ^_^
Quote
Implementing this as a class in C++ you can take advantage of operator overloading as opposed to chaining methods to add/multiply.

Java do have authomatic method inline. So add(sub( is, or should be inlined after first 10000 calls, or so. ~_^
Wasn't FFT better than n^2 algorithm?
Quote
write a gaussian blur in java and the same thing in C/C++.  Do it on a 1024/768 32 bit image as many times as you can over 1000 iterations.

I migth to that aside that C++ part. Just how big distance should be blurred? The problem is: as many times as I can? It would turn into random data. Or should I done 1000 iterations? I had nastier problem. My ultraslow function and 3000 x 3000 map. Of course at least 30000 iterations just to made look it nice. One of biggest slow downs was that drawing on the screen after each iteration - 3 different pictures, or 3 different version of picture. I speeded it considerably when I decided to paint only each 50 picture or so.
If someone is interested in maping algorithms in early stage. Look at http://volny.cz/sscom
Quote

I've written my own complex libraries, linear libraries, optimization libraries, in C/C++ and Java.  I've optimized code for a healthy portion of my coding life (20 years).  I guess this means I know absolutely nothing.

ROT 13 a short story about I know...

Guvf erzvaqf zr bs zl grzcbeny erghea gb fpubby nsgre 5 lrnef qrynl. Grnpuref bs culfvp qrpvqrq V xabj abguvat naq xvpxrq zr bhg jvgu S. V unq whfg 7 lrne rkcrevrapr nf nfgebabzre nzngrhe jvgu xabjyrqtr nobhg ynfgrfg geraqf va nfgebabzl, gung zrag abguvat sbe fhpu rqhpngrq crefbaf yvxr jrer gung grnpuref. Bar bs gung grfgf jnf Xrccyre ynjf... Zl zbgure jnf grnpure bire 30 lrnef naq V urycrq ure jvgu grnpuvat naq bgure fghss. Vg jnf gbb ybat ntb, V sbetbg fbzrguvat nobhg grnpuref, fbzrguvat nobhg fgnovat vagb gur onpx.  Ybgf bs crbcyr yvxr gurz ner va gur jbeyq...
So back of topic.
Be carefull with optimiztions, and benchmarks some of them could be very missleading. And you should know one thing. Jeff *H*A~*~T~*~E*S* benchmarks.
Quote

For gaming, most of the time, you can avoid any of the nastiness associated with using transcendental functions or complex numbers and the like... but not many people remember the old days/ways of approximating FP math with precalculated integer math.

Actually I do. Do you remmember times when tape was used for programming? (Paper tape, and of course that paper card how was english name for that. Europe used one system, US second.) Those were the times when computers were able to continue in work even after one day of electricity shortage.
Precalculated values for Taylor aproximations are sometimes even now used in the scene.
BTW when I looked at the JNI overhead in the server VM, it was something like 50 CPU cycles. Lookup into the main memory varies is 150 - 286 cycles.
Offline Middy

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #66 - Posted 2005-01-10 05:47:55 »

How big is the problem for the level of games done at javagaming??

JNI overheads. Who cares, most work are done in the native class OpenGl,ODE, OpenAL etc.

What I think is interesting about this discussion, is that we have to look at the type of C++ based games out there. If we look at the newest high profile titles, take a look at their specs. Min 1 GHZ machines, Gforce 3 and up, 512 MB ram. Well where did the highperformance go? :-)

My thesis, wich is it impossible to verify is that the optimizations is lost due to the complexity of a large game. So steps must be taken to reduce complexity, this is where Java comes in.


When do I get my makeMyGameAsILike() extension?
Offline princec

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« Reply #67 - Posted 2005-01-10 07:28:16 »

Even at my lowly level, startup time is a problem.

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #68 - Posted 2005-01-10 09:45:43 »

Quote


My thesis, wich is it impossible to verify is that the optimizations is lost due to the complexity of a large game. So steps must be taken to reduce complexity, this is where Java comes in.



I agree that's a good starting point to open any dialogue on this subject with C++ developers. It is slowly (very slowly; too many grumpy old doubters in the industry) making an impact on the industry generally, with people using something along the same lines as reasoning for why it's worth employing standard planning and project management techniques. IME it's reached a stage of acceptance where it's making people consider thinking about reading about java a little. i.e. they don't for a moment believe or accept the truth about java (far too sceptical yet) but something in the back of their mind is starting to doubt the many set-in-stone attitudes of their peers, and qustion "is there a better way? C++ may be the most powerful language, but our biggest problems are all budget, overworked staff (80+ hour weeks) and overly complex under-tested projects. Perhaps there's a way forward that sacrifices expressive power but makes everyone on the team less stressed, and gets the game completed quicker?".

Unless we have concrete, simple, verifiable information - and lots of it - then when each C++ dev asks themself that question and glances at java, they'll quickly find one thing (e.g. generics in java 5) that rightly terrifies them and makes them not bother to evaluate it any further.

This is the job, really, of Sun's marketing dept, but IMHO they're incompetence (or, at least, failures) outside the "selling to large corporates" niche is quite legendary, and as java users we have both a vested personal interest and also a moral inclination to help make lives easier for other poor souls who still labour under the yoke of C++ Grin.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


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System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #69 - Posted 2005-01-10 10:10:00 »

There was a VERY long thread (actually several) a month or two back on the newsgroups about Lisp vs C/C++ for games programming.  

The Lisp guys basically saying that Lisp is better faster to use because it is more flexible, has GC so its easier to develop with (less time debugging memory problems)...etc.

Litterally hundreds (actually over a thousand) of posts from the C/C++ game world came in and can be summed up like this:

"If Lisp is so great, where are the top quality games built with it? (except Naughty Dog..the ONLY example)"

"Why would I switch to Lisp for gamming, when so many tools/API's exist for C++?  I have deleted more C++ game code from my drive then you can produce for Lisp"

"99% of existing game companies are not going to consider using Lisp because the top game developers they can hire all use C/C++.  Where are the rockstar Lisp game programmers?"

"When you show me ONE fantastic game built for a PC that proves your claims of fast development time, reduced complexity, etc., then I'll think aobut it until then, i'll stick with C++"

You can expect the same kinds of arguments against Java.  

Prove those claims wrong or have good arguments against them all and at least some people will be convinced.  Unfortunetly most of those arguments are "Chicken or the Egg" problems....  

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #70 - Posted 2005-01-10 10:56:55 »

Quote
There was a VERY long thread (actually several) a month or two back on the newsgroups about Lisp vs C/C++ for games programming.


That could be a useful reference point (although I fear it would take a very long time to read through Sad). Do you have a link? (web)

Quote

The Lisp guys basically saying that Lisp is better faster to use because it is more flexible, has GC so its easier to develop with (less time debugging memory problems)...etc.


I'm fairly certain that Lisp is a pretty awful choice for general games development *at the moment* since the runtime stuff isn't really good enough. Like Java 1.0, in theory it's a good option but the practical situation hasn't attained what the theory allows.

Or, to put it another way, LISP is a one-shot-wonder. It does one thing particularly, and that lets it do lots of other things well. But for it to be more than a niche language it needs to do a lot of things fundamentally brilliantly (look how many java does, and how it's struggled even so to gain acceptance!). If Java were merely WORA I persoinally would never have started using it - it's a great feature, but simply not enough to make it adoptable as a base platform.

Quote

Litterally hundreds (actually over a thousand) of posts from the C/C++ game world came in and can be summed up like this:

"If Lisp is so great, where are the top quality games built with it? (except Naughty Dog..the ONLY example)"


FWIW, ND have given up on Lisp as being too poor for games development...

Quote

"Why would I switch to Lisp for gamming, when so many tools/API's exist for C++?  I have deleted more C++ game code from my drive then you can produce for Lisp"


A fair point: a language without masses of tool support isn't tenable for production development of games, sadly.

Quote

"99% of existing game companies are not going to consider using Lisp because the top game developers they can hire all use C/C++.  Where are the rockstar Lisp game programmers?"


Bizarrely, this one has hardly come up at all in my discussions with C++ devs, except where I've raised it myself. That might be something to be veyr afraid of: are they all assuming that java is as similar as C++ as the basic syntaxes are? Gulp.

Quote

"When you show me ONE fantastic game built for a PC that proves your claims of fast development time, reduced complexity, etc., then I'll think aobut it until then, i'll stick with C++"


...reason for starting javagamesfactory.org in the first place...

Quote

You can expect the same kinds of arguments against Java.  


Thanks. Good to have some different approaches to the issue.

One thing that I've noticed, however, is that people who don't develop games professionally are fond of the "where's the amazing game using that language?" argument. If you count the percentage of people asking that in any environment then it's inversely proportional to the number of pro games devs. In the handful of all-pro-game-devs environments I'm in it practically never comes up - presumably because we're all aware that 90% of the reasons why a game doesn't happen are independent of the language. Go to slashdot, and it seems to be all that anyone ever has to say. Places like gamedev.net lie somewhere in between.

Does this tally with other people's experiences?

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

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« Reply #71 - Posted 2005-01-10 12:34:57 »

The problem with JGF is basically that the quality of the games is going to either suck greatly or not be anywhere near "AAA" quality Sad

Without $1m of financial backing I'll never get near to retail-quality.

Cas Smiley

Offline Middy

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #72 - Posted 2005-01-10 16:03:11 »

This reminds me of an incident two weeks ago.

A friend of my family showe me an Achorn computer. I had never seen it before. It booted almost instantly, (3-5 sec bootime), was based on a RISC processor and had a nice GUI that looked identical to older versions of OS X.

This PC was RISC based a long time before Apple claimed to have launched the first RISC based computer and had a GUI while MS still was in dos mode.

So why did they fail, they apparently sucked at marketing.

So my point is, what may be best does not have to be what people use. Being right is not enough.


A funny story that comes with the machine is that Apple printed big adds claiming that they had build the first RISC based PC. Achorn not having enough money to sue them, simply printed adds "Joing the club". Dunno if its true, buts its funny :-)

When do I get my makeMyGameAsILike() extension?
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #73 - Posted 2005-01-10 16:13:40 »

In a somewhat related, somewhat thread hyjacking way....

On next generation systems, why Java, not C++?

And furthermore,  will Java be on these next gen systems?  what will it take to get it there?

If a huge hit came out using Java on PCs, would the powers that be be inspired to port/create a solid JVM?
Or will that happen anyway, then current game developers can look at Java as viable on those platforms and switch some projects to Java.

Finally, if the Java support on PS3/XB2/Revolution is slow to materialize, I can't see how Java can be a true alternative for game development in the short to medium term.

[mod-typos]

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #74 - Posted 2005-01-10 17:00:49 »

Quote
There was a VERY long thread (actually several) a month or two back on the newsgroups about Lisp vs C/C++ for games programming.  



Do you mean that thread that started as a joke on another joke thread in Lisp group?
C++ sucks for games.

Alas some posters didn't know that previous thread so they thought it was a troll.

It was on usenet, not on web. Of course blah^3 could look at google.groups and look at comp.lang.lisp
,comp.games.development.programming.misc
,comp.lang.c++
I have just 755 posts of it. If compressed it's 500 kB.
Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #75 - Posted 2005-01-10 17:22:02 »

PS3 doesn't need to be as easily adopted as PS2. First at all some companies lost money when started development to PS2 too soon, the second "problem" would be incompatibility with PSX. Actually this wouldn't be a problem we have emulators so no need for modchips.
Look at this article. http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20041229/kelly_01.shtml
Offline princec

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« Reply #76 - Posted 2005-01-10 18:26:21 »

My money's with XBox 1. It could have a JVM and OpenGL in a matter of weeks.

Cas Smiley

Offline Vorax

Senior Member


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System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #77 - Posted 2005-01-10 18:54:47 »

Quote


Do you mean that thread that started as a joke on another joke thread in Lisp group?
C++ sucks for games.

Alas some posters didn't know that previous thread so they thought it was a troll.

It was on usenet, not on web. Of course blah^3 could look at google.groups and look at comp.lang.lisp
,comp.games.development.programming.misc
,comp.lang.c++
I have just 755 posts of it. If compressed it's 500 kB.



There were three threads involved originall IIRC.  One from a guy at Microsoft started it.  He wrote a paper or something (was on a web site) "Why Lisp sucks for games", this of course pissed off the Lisp community.  Then they had a very long thread rebutting his claim C++ was superior for games development.  ...Then... a real thread was started titled something like "C++ vs Lisp for games development" (spanning comp.lang.lisp, games and c++ groups)....  which went on for several hundred posts...then someone (Kenneth Tilton? not sure) started the joke one (based on the name of the original paper from the M$ guy)... "C++ sucks for games"....all of those posts had good arguments for and against both.

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #78 - Posted 2005-01-10 20:03:05 »

Quote

It was on usenet, not on web.


Like most people these days I don't touch usenet with a 10 foot bargepole. Too much hassle, too many ISP's block it or make it difficult, and forums have displaced it in the mass market.

Quote

Of course blah^3 could look at google.groups


Exactly. Anyone who'd read the original would be able to find a weblink to it via a quick copy/paste from a posting into google. Since I haven't read it, I would have to trawl through tonnes of crap to find it. Hence asking for a link.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #79 - Posted 2005-01-10 21:58:03 »

The nasty gram that started it all:

http://www.spies.com/~palevich/CLRScheme/WhyLispSucksForGames.htm

C++ sucks for games:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/9acf0a2e4e498775/8af5dc8037b7a7f9?q=C%2B%2B+vs+Lisp+games&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3DC%2B%2B+vs+Lisp+games%26qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#8af5dc8037b7a7f9

I can't find the other one that spawned from the MS guys paper, or the decent one, but I think the "C++ sucks for games" ended up with the most posts anways (1015 posts)...that''ll keep you busy.  

Offline cyberyoyo

Junior Member




Java games funk


« Reply #80 - Posted 2005-01-11 02:46:02 »

Hello, I would like to answer the original question "Why Java for games?".
I am not a code guru but I have a fairly good amount of experience at coding games( more precisely FPS modifications).I have reached  a good level of expertise before realizing I was wasting my time develloping huge projects for a commercial game engine for which I would never own a license (and no, I don't have the "dream" of working as an employee for corporate videogame industry )    Lips Sealed

Well back to the point: I think Java would be awesome for games because of it's high level approach, and its perfect implementation of OOP. When games start reaching a certain threshold of complexity you just can't keep coder ressources invested on two huge fronts (low-level stuff and high-level).
When using high level object language, big chunks of code can migrate from the main loops to the objects, you can manage your project easier and can deleguate tasks to second-rank coders and artist guys.Complexity is an important factor in the success or the failure of a project.
A language like java is very well suited for complex games such as RPGs, MMORPGS,Strategy games,network games, etc,etc...

Today the japanese are the ones winning the battle of innovation in videogames.They can pull very original games such as Ico,viewtiful joe, to name a few, while western devellopers can't go beyond the paramilitary "infiltration" desert gun-show "games" they are serving us non-stop now. studios like Capcom,and other develloping games on consoles, don't need to waste ressource on low level stuff because the consoles limits are set and known from the start. Console devellopers  are "free" to conceive original games (actually they are forced to search new ideas to stand out from the mass), while most PC devellopers just change the game engine and serve us the same game than 10 years ago(doom with bump mapping, half-life with bump mapping,etc...).
Java devellopers can be in the same situation than the console devellopers since they don't have to worry about low level specificities (CROSS PLATFORM remember?).
And the high level oop coding and libraires available make it easier to devellop middleware. All we need is a couple of succesfull projects that would start a critical mass.

Oh and before I finish, the very popular unreal engine uses a powerful scripting language that is based on(and very similar to) java. UnrealScript is an interpreted OOP language that manage all the in-game objects and maps. The only things done in native code are generally the renderer routines, and so most of the unreal engine games (this is alot of commercial games) are coded (almost!) in java
So Java is already in games, and you don't know Smiley


(I apologize if that post doesn't make a lot of sense, it's because of my bad english)
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #81 - Posted 2005-01-11 07:46:31 »

Quote

Well back to the point: I think Java would be awesome for games because of it's high level approach, and its perfect implementation of OOP.


Sadly, this isn't true. Java up until version 5 is far from perfect, failing to implement some fundamental aspects of OOP. With 5, it might finally be a complete implementation, but I'm not sure since 5 has so many other problems I haven't tried using it yet Smiley.

Advanced C++ programmers would probably notice this quite quickly.

Quote

When games start reaching a certain threshold of complexity you just can't keep coder ressources invested on two huge fronts (low-level stuff and high-level).


Commercial games projects do this all the time, no matter how complex. I'm afraid don't see the problem you're getting at here. Could you explain a bit further?

Quote

Today the japanese are the ones winning the battle of innovation in videogames.


Most people in the games industry would disagree with this, quite strongly. Most people in the UK would, I believe, probably put UK first for innovation Smiley. Just look at Molyneux's games (and those of his ex-employees)  - that's just *one studio* (plus offshoots). Have a look at some of the games mags, or Developer (UK-specific game-industry), and see what's going on.

Quote

while western devellopers can't go beyond the paramilitary "infiltration" desert gun-show "games" they are serving us non-stop now.


You've been paying too much attention to a small number of very large publishers, naming no names Smiley. I agree that every time you go in the games stores round here (London) there's a rack full of those things, a new set of titles each time, but ... it seems to be dependent upon your local shop and what people in your country / city like to buy. In the US, for instance, the big seller is sports games. In the UK, it's military and FPS's (going by store stocks). And the rst of the store still has a huge variety of games for sale...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

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Medals: 366
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« Reply #82 - Posted 2005-01-11 09:51:00 »

Don't forget the hotbed of invention in the indie scene too eh?

Actually here's a big shitter for us: using Java, we can't get our games on XBox. One of my "competitors", Raptisoft, has recently just quickly ported their game Hamsterball to run on XBox. I can't do that. Same has happened to PomPom's Mutant Storm, and Retro64's Best Friends. I am at a severe commercial disadvantage in that respect. This is only very slightly offset by the fact I can run stuff on the Mac without effort.

Bottom line: no Java on consoles, no deal for any serious studio, period.

Cas Smiley

Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #83 - Posted 2005-01-11 10:16:40 »

Quote
Don't forget the hotbed of invention in the indie scene too eh?

Actually here's a big shitter for us: using Java, we can't get our games on XBox. One of my "competitors", Raptisoft, has recently just quickly ported their game Hamsterball to run on XBox. I can't do that. Same has happened to PomPom's Mutant Storm, and Retro64's Best Friends. I am at a severe commercial disadvantage in that respect. This is only very slightly offset by the fact I can run stuff on the Mac without effort.

Bottom line: no Java on consoles, no deal for any serious studio, period.

Cas Smiley


This is a very good point.  There are only two options really, write a native code compiler for the platform, or write a JVM for it.... both would require alot of time/money.

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #84 - Posted 2005-01-11 11:24:36 »

Quote
Bottom line: no Java on consoles, no deal for any serious studio, period.

Cas Smiley


Here, here.  How many times and ways must we say this? ;-)

ASA a usable public JVM implementation is available on consoles you will see playable hobbists games there, and shortly after you MAY see production level games.
But only in that order, not the other way around.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #85 - Posted 2005-01-11 11:54:51 »

Has anyone considered simply porting a JVM to the consoles? As much as I generally don't like the Kaffe, Kaffe + LWJGL should be relatively easy to port to these systems. You can even have fun stripping out all the libraries you don't want, and linking in only that native code that you DO want.

Starting such a project would probably be more productive than complaining that Sun should do it.  :-/

Besides, what is going to change Sun's mind if they don't first smell money in that direction? ;-)

Edit: Kaffe even lists the Playstation 2 on their Ports page!

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #86 - Posted 2005-01-11 12:16:59 »

Quote
As much as I generally don't like the Kaffe, Kaffe + LWJGL should be relatively easy to port to these systems. You can even have fun stripping out all the libraries you don't want, and linking in only that native code that you DO want.


You certainly can't do that and call the result Java.   You would have to go with some MIDP profile or other manner to limit the API set and define what must be implemented and what is optional.  That's a good thing really, since there must be some guarantee of what APIs are available to code to.

Of course getting someone's attention with awesome Java games on PCs & Macs might make the port to consoles look a bit more attractive.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #87 - Posted 2005-01-11 12:32:08 »

Quote
You certainly can't do that and call the result Java.
 

'Tis true. However you can code in Java and then "produce an executable for consoles" from that Java. Grin It works out to more or less the same thing.

Quote
You would have to go with some MIDP profile or other manner to limit the API set and define what must be implemented and what is optional.  That's a good thing really, since there must be some guarantee of what APIs are available to code to.


Indeed. I actually have a nearly complete CLDC 1.1 implementation that I plan to donate to the JOP project. It's my intent to use it as the basis for the JGC project, plus some custom sound and graphics libs.

Quote
Of course getting someone's attention with awesome Java games on PCs & Macs might make the port to consoles look a bit more attractive.


Too true. :-)

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline DaveLloyd

Junior Member




Making things happen fast with Java!


« Reply #88 - Posted 2005-01-11 13:32:05 »

Quote
Bottom line: no Java on consoles, no deal for any serious studio, period.

Cas


What about gcj? Ok, it's compiled and missing a lot of the extended APIs but is probably complete enough for a game - particularly through lwjgl and is supported on all  consoles.

Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #89 - Posted 2005-01-11 13:45:06 »

Quote
What about gcj? Ok, it's compiled and missing a lot of the extended APIs but is probably complete enough for a game - particularly through lwjgl and is supported on all  consoles.


Very good point. From Jacob Marner's report Evaluating Java for Game Development:

Quote
It is true that there are no Java virtual machines available for the Nintendo 64, Sony Playstation or the Sega Dream cast, but because GCJ (the Java GNU compiler) can run on any platform that has a port of gcc and because gcc ports exist for the consoles you can in effect write efficient GCJ programs for consoles.

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
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