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  Early first results from JNWN  (Read 3465 times)
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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Posted 2004-11-08 20:25:07 »

Hi guys!

I just cleaned up the CVS and am in the process of uploading my current code base.  I have working Bioware-data rsource manager and resoure browser that lets me look at resources.  I now also have the loading as display of map geometry and txtures working within that browser.  (Thats my dev environment.  When I release I will move all the necessary bits to a proper J3D loader.)

Lots still to do in terms of environment animations, transparncy, sounds, lighting and genreal speed and efficiency but its workign well enouhg to load bsaic maps.  Ill put some screen shots in the WWW directory of the project.

Note that there are NO docs.  I know this so you dont have to tell me.  Its still way too early for that, Ill doc when we hit first release of the loader.

JK

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




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« Reply #1 - Posted 2004-11-08 20:47:01 »

Screenshots:

https://jnwn.dev.java.net/source/browse/jnwn/www/CityTest100804.jpg?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

https://jnwn.dev.java.net/source/browse/jnwn/www/HeightTest100804.jpg?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

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Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 118
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #2 - Posted 2004-11-09 11:39:45 »

Looks excellent Jeff, can't wait to see where this goes.

Kev

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2004-11-10 20:53:49 »

New Upload.  Now handles transparency correctly!

Narrowing in on being able to actually create a version 1 loader...  Smiley

JK

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Offline Jeff

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2004-11-11 21:53:10 »

Ah the joys of reverse engineering.

Im workign on doors and placeables.

The Area GIt file baically gets me to Template files for the doors, but templates only have a pallete node number, not the resref of the actual palette they came from.

Anyone knwo whrere the pallete res refs for a given area are hiding?

Thanks

JK

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Offline Jeff

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2004-11-11 22:38:58 »

Nevre mind, was barking up the wrong tree.

Models are in doortypes.2da

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Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2004-11-12 02:04:19 »

Hello, is this the "Jeff's mental conversion" line? ;-)

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline 69_Jeremy_69

Senior Newbie




Java games rock!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2004-11-18 16:02:00 »

Hey Jeff I just came from the NWN Development arena.  Let me know if you need some info about things.  My expertise was in creating HAKs.   Mostly new creatures and textures, but I have allot of 2da knowledge.   The render looks good so far. Not looking to join a project but hopefully I can save you some time and answer some questions.
Offline Jeff

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2004-11-19 18:37:54 »

Thanks Jeremy.

At the moment msot of the questions Im running into are very low level and have to do with figuring out the binary 3D file format.  Im working from Torlack's notes which, while impresive, aren't always very clear or detailed.

But I seem to be making progress anyway!  I'm working on Doors and palcables right now...  I have some positioning stuff stil lto get right but its getting close.

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Offline Jeff

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2004-11-23 22:20:25 »

Just put up my latest snap shot in the WWW directory.

Doors are now in the right places (You can also see transparency working, look at the tree.)  The  grate that drops gets placed perfectly.  The doors that swing are all 90 degrees in rotation and set at the center of the door frame.  

I have a strong suspicion this is due to my not yet having figured out where to get the data for animating the door states (open/closed.)  if anyone has suggestions please mak them otherwise I'll keep digging and experimenting!

JK

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Offline phazer

Junior Member




Come get some


« Reply #10 - Posted 2004-11-24 10:42:42 »

Slightly related, I've just added skeleton animation to my NWN text model loader. The walking iron golem looks very cool. Sorry, no Web Start demos yet, just some old (too dark) screenshots at the project page. The source code from http://sourceforge.net/projects/nwn-j3d was helpful when implementing the model loader.

I'm also interested in code that parses binary NWN model files. Maybe you have something I can use?

Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #11 - Posted 2004-11-24 11:48:01 »

Have you done interpolation between animations ? It is quite important for models to look believable.

As for binary model format, THE SOURCE is Torlack website (http://torlack.com/index.html?topics=nwndata_binmdl), plus his model compiler/decompiler. Don't even bother looking at my c-tools, I have done decompilation in interative manner and never managed to refactor the beast, while Torlack started from coding only from point where he had general idea how everything works - so it is a lot more readable.

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline phazer

Junior Member




Come get some


« Reply #12 - Posted 2004-11-24 12:06:49 »

Quote
Have you done interpolation between animations ? It is quite important for models to look believable.


Yes, I do linear interpolation of the orientation quaternions (using SLERP) and points. I've also done some tests with quadric interpolation as this should result in smoother animation, but it's hard to tell the difference. Are NWN model animations designed for linear interpolation?

Btw, are you the same 'abies' responsible for the http://sourceforge.net/projects/nwn-j3d project? If so, thanks for making the source code available, it's really helpful when trying to make sense of the model format.  Smiley

Quote

As for binary model format, THE SOURCE is Torlack website (http://torlack.com/index.html?topics=nwndata_binmdl), plus his model compiler/decompiler. Don't even bother looking at my c-tools, I have done decompilation in interative manner and never managed to refactor the beast, while Torlack started from coding only from point where he had general idea how everything works - so it is a lot more readable.


Yes, that's what I found when searching the web. As binary models can be converted to text, there really are no big reasons for implementing a binary loader, right?

Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #13 - Posted 2004-11-24 14:59:57 »

Quote


Yes, I do linear interpolation of the orientation quaternions (using SLERP) and points. I've also done some tests with quadric interpolation as this should result in smoother animation, but it's hard to tell the difference. Are NWN model animations designed for linear interpolation?


Yes, linear interpolation is ok. Just to be sure - I was not talking about interpolating between keyframes in single animation, I was talking about interpolation when changing animations. For example, you were in middle of turning head to left and at the instance you start two handed swing. Without interpolation between anims, head will pop into stright position in instant. What I have done, was blending two of the animations at very start. As far as I remember, it was also linear interpolation, just between poses of two anims (previous and target) at given time - with weight being dependent on one of parameters of target animation (transition speed or something like that).

I know that it is not very clear - if you want more info, I could write an equation for that.

Quote

Btw, are you the same 'abies' responsible for the http://sourceforge.net/projects/nwn-j3d project? If so, thanks for making the source code available, it's really helpful when trying to make sense of the model format.  Smiley

Same abies, just 2 years older Smiley

Quote

Yes, that's what I found when searching the web. As binary models can be converted to text, there really are no big reasons for implementing a binary loader, right?


Depending on what you want to do. If you just want to play with models and have something for your game - no need. If you want to interact with NWN world (hak/mod browser, world editor etc), then it is not possible to require everybody to first run all resources through decompiler.

Certainly there is no need to implement model writing in binary - it is just a difference of speed for original NWN and in extremly few cases somebody would really want to do it, they can always use a converter.

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #14 - Posted 2004-11-24 17:54:50 »

You can grab my binary loading code from JNWN if  you want.

The source starts from "AreaViewer".  AreaViewer calls MDLLoader to actually load the models.  To proeprly load binary models you *must* have an NWN resource manager as textures and such are accessed by resref.  I have one in my code base, you can see how AreaViewer and MDLLoader instance and use it.

No docs, no comments, but verbose variable and method names for the most part.

Translating the binary IS slow.  For  my project im planning on actually writing a tile-converter that will store them in Java3D io format for fast load at run-time.  Having said that there is still a good deal of caching I coudl be doing that im not yet that will speed this code up.  (Currently AFAIR all Im cachign is textures.)

Have fun.  Im eventually going to need creature loading when I start work on the actual client so you guys' projects definitely interest me.

JK

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Offline phazer

Junior Member




Come get some


« Reply #15 - Posted 2004-11-24 18:33:01 »

Quote


Yes, linear interpolation is ok. Just to be sure - I was not talking about interpolating between keyframes in single animation, I was talking about interpolation when changing animations. For example, you were in middle of turning head to left and at the instance you start two handed swing. Without interpolation between anims, head will pop into stright position in instant. What I have done, was blending two of the animations at very start. As far as I remember, it was also linear interpolation, just between poses of two anims (previous and target) at given time - with weight being dependent on one of parameters of target animation (transition speed or something like that).


Yes, some kind of interpolation between animations is needed. I'm considering storing the current orientation and position for each node and then move these values towards a target position. That way you can stop in the middle of an animation and start another one smoothly.

Btw, what is the "transtime" animation parameter found in the model files used for?

Quote

Depending on what you want to do. If you just want to play with models and have something for your game - no need. If you want to interact with NWN world (hak/mod browser, world editor etc), then it is not possible to require everybody to first run all resources through decompiler.


True. I've no plans for supporting other NWN data besides loading NWN models. I'll probably implement a custom binary model format to increase model read/write performance.

A question about the text model format: in the face list there is an extra int value after each vertex index triplet. For example:

1  
2  
  faces 48
    3 0 1  >4<  3 0 1  >1<


Is this some kind surface grouping used when calculating vertex normals, or what is this value used for? Currently I just ignore it.

Offline phazer

Junior Member




Come get some


« Reply #16 - Posted 2004-11-24 18:38:41 »

Quote
You can grab my binary loading code from JNWN if  you want.

The source starts from "AreaViewer".  AreaViewer calls MDLLoader to actually load the models.  To proeprly load binary models you *must* have an NWN resource manager as textures and such are accessed by resref.  I have one in my code base, you can see how AreaViewer and MDLLoader instance and use it.


Ok, I'll look into it when I get some time.

Quote

Have fun.  Im eventually going to need creature loading when I start work on the actual client so you guys' projects definitely interest me.

JK


You're welcome to check it out. The project has just started so it's far from stable and the documentation is non-existant.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2004-11-24 22:49:53 »

Just updated the code!

be sure to grba the latest version of MDLLoader as I fixed the bug thatw as causing the doors to be positioned wrong. they work now!

Placeables next then I'll probably do the official J3D Loader class for the maps (the 3D desktop guys want it so they cna show NWN maps as 3D backdrops) .  Following that I get to start actually building a game client Smiley Smiley Smiley

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Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #18 - Posted 2004-11-25 06:14:45 »

Quote


Yes, some kind of interpolation between animations is needed. I'm considering storing the current orientation and position for each node and then move these values towards a target position. That way you can stop in the middle of an animation and start another one smoothly.

Btw, what is the "transtime" animation parameter found in the model files used for?


From AnimNode.java
------------------------------------
When animation changes, we are at certain position O (original)
    Theoretic target animation position T(t) for time t is computed
    by linear interpolation between keyframes surrounding t.
    Real position R(t) for given t is computed in following manner, for
    transistion time tt.
    if t >= tt then
    R(t) = T(t)
    else
    R(t) = T(t) + (O-T(0))*(1-t/tt)
------------------------------------

It seems that I have just stored position/orientation at time of animation change and then linearly interpolated between that and target animation (where target animation was already running).

Trick is that inteporlation is R(t) = T(t) + (O-T(0))*(1-t/tt) (first O is original, second is zero - bad naming on my part), instead of R(t) = T(t)*(t/tt) + (O-T(t))*(1-t/tt). This is not really interpolating between two animations like I have before. I'm running target animation, but at very start, there is an error in position, resulting in previous animation not ending in place corrected for starting current one. What I do, is just running current animation and applying original error diminishing proportionally to (1-t/tt). I don't exactly remember why I have chosen this solution - probably I have experimented with both and this one looked better.

Quote

A question about the text model format: in the face list there is an extra int value after each vertex index triplet. For example:

1  
2  
  faces 48
    3 0 1  >4<  3 0 1  >1<


Is this some kind surface grouping used when calculating vertex normals, or what is this value used for? Currently I just ignore it.


First of magic integers (4 in this case) is smoothing group indentifier. Ascii format does not have normals specified, you need to compute them yourself. Normally, for each vertex you average normals of all faces sharing it - but in this way, you cannot get hard edges. What you need is duplicating vertices which are shared by faces from more than one group and computing normals only for each group.

Second of these integers was not identified to this point as far as I remember.

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline phazer

Junior Member




Come get some


« Reply #19 - Posted 2004-11-25 06:53:19 »

Quote


From AnimNode.java
------------------------------------
When animation changes, we are at certain position O (original)
    Theoretic target animation position T(t) for time t is computed
    by linear interpolation between keyframes surrounding t.
    Real position R(t) for given t is computed in following manner, for
    transistion time tt.
    if t >= tt then
    R(t) = T(t)
    else
    R(t) = T(t) + (O-T(0))*(1-t/tt)
------------------------------------

It seems that I have just stored position/orientation at time of animation change and then linearly interpolated between that and target animation (where target animation was already running).

Trick is that inteporlation is R(t) = T(t) + (O-T(0))*(1-t/tt) (first O is original, second is zero - bad naming on my part), instead of R(t) = T(t)*(t/tt) + (O-T(t))*(1-t/tt). This is not really interpolating between two animations like I have before. I'm running target animation, but at very start, there is an error in position, resulting in previous animation not ending in place corrected for starting current one. What I do, is just running current animation and applying original error diminishing proportionally to (1-t/tt). I don't exactly remember why I have chosen this solution - probably I have experimented with both and this one looked better.


Ok, I remember seeing the formulas in your docs, but I never read them carefully. Now I see what the transition time is used for.

Quote

First of magic integers (4 in this case) is smoothing group indentifier. Ascii format does not have normals specified, you need to compute them yourself. Normally, for each vertex you average normals of all faces sharing it - but in this way, you cannot get hard edges. What you need is duplicating vertices which are shared by faces from more than one group and computing normals only for each group.


Ok, this is what I thought. Seems the group integer is a bit mask because it's almost always a power of 2. Maybe each bit identifies a group. That way a face can be part of multiple groups. Correct?

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2004-11-25 18:47:35 »

Updates to AreaViewer and a few other files.

Placeables are now showing up correctly too!

I believe this completes the static geometry loading.  Next up is the actual Java3D area loader. Following that I will either do geometry caching in this loader or begin work on the converter.

Still undone is dynamic geometry.  This includes placeable animations  and "emitters"  (smoke from stacks, oving wter in the waterfall, etc).  Also undone is using any of the map ligthing information.

Although both of these are useful and add to the environment I htin kat this point im more inerested in starting work on a basic client and then going back and adding that visual sugar afterward.


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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2004-12-02 20:46:04 »

Hey Guys, and abies in pariticular.

I've decided the cleanest thing to do with all my bianry loader work is cut and paste it into Abies exisiting loader code so that we have one loader that will do both.  (Besides, your organization is a alot cleaner then mine currently so it makes sense for me to use your structure Wink )

I've grabbed a workign copy of Abies stuff as anonymous from sourceforge and ill apply for dev status on your project.

Thanks!

JK


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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




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« Reply #22 - Posted 2004-12-03 20:29:10 »

A note to phazer.

Im folding the laoder part of my project into Abies'.  Might it make sense for your project to do the same and we all share that code base for loading?

I took a look at your project.  Looks something like mine which is cool, though mine is J3D based and yours is JOGL.  Should be interesting to compare ntoes as we go fowards Smiley

JK

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #23 - Posted 2004-12-21 23:06:52 »

Major update!

The MDLLoader is now a two stage loader.  First it parses the binary file and creates an internal representation and then it compiels that down to a J3D scene.

The resulting code is much more modular and easier to expand and maintain as well as making it easier to inster som caching of thinsg like modle geometry,.  It will also allow me to pull Abies' ascii parser in and meld them into a single loader that handles both.

I have also elminated my use of  the third party TGA imageio loader (removed all imageio in fact) and replaced it with my own TGA parsing code.  The result is a screemingly fast map loads in Java Smiley

There are two regressions in the latets code base to be aware of;

(1)  Placables and doors are not being positioned right again.  Thsi is next on my list tofix.

(2) BMPs are currently not supported and an attempt to load a BMP file with the ResurceManager will return null for the BufferedImage.

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Offline phazer

Junior Member




Come get some


« Reply #24 - Posted 2004-12-22 07:35:16 »

I'm not using JOGL, I'm using LWJGL. Wink

I'm kinda happy with my NWN text loader now. It supports almost everything I need: animation, quaternions, correct normal calculations etc. Maybe I'll add particle support later, but it's not high on my priority list. Jeff, if you create a text and/or binary loader that's not dependent of Java3D I might be interested in using it. I have no plans to use Java3D myself.

Btw, any1 got some recommendations on what file format is best if I want to import models with animation from Blender? The Blender NWN exporter doesn't support animations I think.

I've done a TGA loader for my project as well. Smiley It's very easy to implement and can be made very fast. Loading JPG images with ImageIO takes centuries in comparison.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #25 - Posted 2004-12-23 05:12:43 »

Quote
I Jeff, if you create a text and/or binary loader that's not dependent of Java3D I might be interested in using it. I have no plans to use Java3D myself.


The problem is that there really is nto good general way to build a 3D scene loader without a well defined scene graph.  So any laoder AFAICS woudkl have to be specific to J3D, XITH, Shawn's scene graph, or one of your own.


Edit:  I was thinkign about this.  You COULD use my new code base if you wanted and just replace or add to the second pass that creates the j3D scene graph with your own.

Up to you

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Offline phazer

Junior Member




Come get some


« Reply #26 - Posted 2004-12-24 18:27:49 »

Quote


The problem is that there really is nto good general way to build a 3D scene loader without a well defined scene graph.  So any laoder AFAICS woudkl have to be specific to J3D, XITH, Shawn's scene graph, or one of your own.


True, or it would require extra work without much benefit. Well, I know where to find your code if I need it  Smiley

Offline Jeff

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2005-04-13 22:18:09 »

Been awhile guys as I got heavy bogged down with work before GDC.  As i ma now in documenting hell though i thought it might be good for my sanity to pick up my pet project again.

I just checked back a version that has the 2 passes really properly seperated.  In the old version of the loader the NWN model nodes contained the knowledge of how to make j3D structures. In the new version there is a seperate MDLTranslator class that does that work.

This means that it shoudl be relaitvely easy to write translators for other scene graph formats.  You can use MDLTransltor as a guide/example.


This also allowed me to cleanly seperate controllers, which is a pre-requisite for what NWN calls "animation" and what I call "model states".

Hopefully the result will be animated models soon Smiley

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Offline Jeff

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2005-04-15 04:55:58 »

Alright!

Neew version uploaded.

It fixes a bug in the Controller loading code and the code now handles MDL "states".  

======================================
EDIT:  This was  unclear...  it was late and I was tired

"States" are what NWN calls animations but as a "aniamtion" cna just be anew static position, and the base ground-state can have motion, I thought "state" was a cleaner term.

SO lets try re-explaining that...

NWN Mdls have various settinsg set  by "controllers".  There sia  default set that is in the main scene graph.  Controllers coem in two types.  Fixed value controlelrs and time-keyed controllers.  Time-keyed con trolers animate the parameters in much the same way that J3D behaviors typically do.

Additionally each MDL faile can contain named dummy scene graphs that just contain alternate  sets of controllers that over-lay the ones in the main scene graph.  NWN calles these "aniamtions" but I call tyhem "states" because an NWN "animation" can be all static controlelrs and thus not really animate at all.

My loader code extends SceneBase witha  MDLSceneBase calss that has an entry poitn to return the state list.  Each state has a name that cna be fecthed from it,  The state that was in the main scene graph is called "_ground", the rest are named whatevr the name of that dummy tree was in teh file (these are the animation names you see in NWN C).

Each MDLState has two methdos on it.  applyStatic() and applyDynamic(float time).  applyStatic() applies all the static controllers of that state to the model.  You call this when you chnage states.  applyDynamic(flaot time) applies the time-keyed controlers for that particaulr moment in time.  In genreal when you chnage states yo ushoudl call both applyStatic() and applyDynamic(0).  It does the rest.

MDLViewer shows how all this is used.

==========================================



Sorry no docs yet.  You can see how they are used by lookign at the new MDLViewer class which now supports state switching and an animation-slider.

Next on my list is looking at getting the particle systems working...

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




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« Reply #29 - Posted 2005-04-15 22:39:21 »

Small Update:

The MDLViewer scroll bar now correctly coers the entire range of the animation.


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