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  Java Programmer Certification Advice/Help  (Read 6184 times)
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Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #30 - Posted 2004-09-12 10:52:22 »

Quote
having a couple of certified developers gets you the kind of Microsoft Friendly Company status that allows you to get cheap licences on loads of their products.

This is something of a trap in that the licences are only valid as long as you stay signed up, which means ensuring each year that you have the requisite number of qualified people and whatever other rules MS introduce (there are new rules for next year if you haven't already noticed). You are also required to use the latest version of all that software.
If you decide to leave this scheme you face a significant hit, as you need to buy regular licences for the software you use (or move to Linux).
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #31 - Posted 2004-09-12 22:43:01 »

If you've decided you're going to focus on being an MS dev house anyway, it works out fairly well.
Offline dranonymous

Junior Member




Hoping to become a Java Titan someday!


« Reply #32 - Posted 2004-10-19 22:07:54 »

Well, this thread generated all kinds of excitement.  Mostly though, very few people actually admitted to having any Sun certs, while a vast majority had strong opinions on whether you should or not.   Tongue

Here's an update to getting my Programmer Cert, good or bad.

- I've been going through the book I decided on and have been learning things I didn't know.
-- Java has an assert statement, who knew?
--Learning about goofy things like putting the default case in a switch statement somewhere other than the end
-- Discovering labeled breaks and continues.  Joy, my pseudo goto at last!  Smiley

- I didn't know as much Java as I thought I did

- In some instances, I knew more than the people I'm studying with

- I'm slightly past the 1/2 point, so the test should be in about 4 weeks.

- I'm convinced that being certified doesn't make you a programmer.  If you're a programmer, who gets certified, it will make you a better programmer.

More to come!

Dr. A>
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #33 - Posted 2004-10-19 22:43:57 »

Quote

-- Java has an assert statement, who knew?


I think most of us here who who've been using java since 1.2 or so. Assert arrived with a farting sound in 1.4. It does nothing, almost - a bit like a precursor to generics: it changes the syntax, breaks some (in some cases lots, depending upon your coding conventions) of existing code, yet brings almost none of the benefits of what people expect from a 21st century assertions system.

Quote

-- Discovering labeled breaks and continues.  Joy, my pseudo goto at last!  Smiley


You were better off not knowing about this. Then, the first time you saw it, you would probably automatically delete the offending code, believing it to be illegal java, thereby ridding the world of one more piece of evil. Tongue

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline dranonymous

Junior Member




Hoping to become a Java Titan someday!


« Reply #34 - Posted 2004-10-20 02:19:01 »

If I didn't respect you so much, I'd just ignore you!   Tongue

None the less, I'm learning more about things I could  use, not what I will use.  If the only tool I had was a hammer, all my problems might look like nails.  Now at least, they might look like nails or bolts.  Smiley

Dr. A>
Offline Malohkan

Senior Member




while (true) System.out.println("WOO!!!!");


« Reply #35 - Posted 2004-10-20 04:44:32 »

Quote
If I didn't respect you so much, I'd just ignore you!   Tongue


Ahh man, that was great Wink  I love this community!

Yeah I've also stared at those labelled breaks myself and decided against using them.  Seems like a cheap hack for being too lazy to organize good code.

Admin and Game Developer at
GameLizard.com
Play Rimscape!    |    Play Conquer!
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #36 - Posted 2004-10-20 12:25:09 »

i love the labeled breaks.  It makes much cleaner, better code in my opinion.  Much nicer than propagating some bogus boolean outof the inner loop into the conditions of the outer loops.
i.e. no more of this
1  
2  
3  
4  
5  
6  
7  
8  
9  
10  
11  
12  
boolean breakOut = false;
while(someCondition && !breakOut)
{
    foo();
    for(int i ; 0; i < 10)
    {
        if (blah())
        {
            breakOut = true;
            break;
        }
}

That stuff gets to be a mess and a labeled break is a much cleaner solution, with resorting to the same level of 'danger' that goto brings.


As for certification... you realize that you would learn all this stuff with one good book.  I am not certified and have no intention of becoming certified.  So far you haven't mentioned anything that I didn't know already about Java just from reading the Java tutorials and my old copy of Core Java that only covered Java 1.2.  If the certification is motivating you to learn more of the language, that's a good thing of course.  But, if you think stamping "Certified Java Programmer" on your résumé means anything to an employer... don't get your hopes up.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #37 - Posted 2004-10-20 13:04:37 »

Quote
i love the labeled breaks.  It makes much cleaner, better code in my opinion.


(nb: in the specific situation referenced...)

That's a really good point. Interesting, because every time I've found myself in that situation, I've always found a simple refactoring that avoided that situation. Each time, I hope that getting into that trap means you're probably contorting yourself around some minor flaw in your original design, and that you can correct the flaw and escape. Each time (so far!) I've been lucky, and it's worked. I have occasionally wondered if it's not luck, but fact; it would be interesting to try and prove that every situation where this happens has a simple refactoring to escape it...

Quote

Much nicer than propagating some bogus boolean outof the inner loop into the conditions of the outer loops.


Definitely.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #38 - Posted 2004-10-20 13:09:27 »

Quote

Yeah I've also stared at those labelled breaks myself and decided against using them.  Seems like a cheap hack for being too lazy to organize good code.


It was tongue-in-cheek (partially Wink), but IIRC gotos are included mainly because of situations like SWP highlights: no-one was quite sure whether lack of gotos would force you into very bad programming practice in the occasional rare situation where they were needed, despite the fact that it was known they were unnecessary (i.e. you could always avoid them - but would it require unwieldy code to do so?).

I have a knee-jerk reaction against them because they make the  basic compiler-optimizations harder (irrelevant these days when the JVM is so good at optimizing in many other ways), and because the paradigm is a nightmare to comprehend in someone else's code, unless they are kind to you or use them VERY sparingly. Like Perl - easy to write, easy to inadvertently make very difficult to read. On the whole, better not to even think about them 99% of the time.

(which is why I'm interested that SWP finds good use for them in those 1% of the time, whereas I've managed so far to avoid them without jumping through hoops...)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #39 - Posted 2004-10-20 15:58:11 »

Following on from the point about stuff you could learn from a book I would say that although you could learn all of that from a book but in my experience doing the exams mostly works as an incentive to actually pick up some books and do some reading rather than putting them to one side and getting back to writing code.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline dranonymous

Junior Member




Hoping to become a Java Titan someday!


« Reply #40 - Posted 2004-10-21 16:11:16 »

I'd have to agree Breakfast.  How many people have books upon books in their homes, which they've never read, but 'will get to it some day.'  I made a rule that I don't buy any books unless I've already read all the ones I own.

Its funny that so many people who are NOT certified, keep saying how bad it is and such.   Kinda like saying, "Why'd you buy tool X, you'll never use it."  Well, as an owner of tool X, I have the option of using it or not.

At any rate, I'm enjoying learning.  After being out of school for so long, its nice to 'hit the books'.

Dr. A>
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #41 - Posted 2004-10-22 00:06:17 »

Quote
Following on from the point about stuff you could learn from a book I would say that although you could learn all of that from a book but in my experience doing the exams mostly works as an incentive to actually pick up some books and do some reading rather than putting them to one side and getting back to writing code.


As I said, if you need it for incentive that is fine.  I'm only speaking of the value of the certified 'status' - it doesn't mean much.  If you can learn from a book as effectively then you can save yourself some money.  I personally use my current project as incentive to learn.  e.g. i needed to work with XML dat, so I bought a couple books that I have read most of and use now as reference materials when I need to find some esoteric detail.  I started with Core Java, added Java Network Programming, then I mainly used the online tutorials and Sun docs... finally grabbing a book on XSLT, Effective XML, and then the great reference The Java Programmers Almanac.  I read the Java newsletters that Sun mails out and I read online articles.  That's what works for me.

Offline Malohkan

Senior Member




while (true) System.out.println("WOO!!!!");


« Reply #42 - Posted 2004-10-22 01:57:29 »

when I can't get my info from Google or the Java Almanac, I ask you guys Wink

Admin and Game Developer at
GameLizard.com
Play Rimscape!    |    Play Conquer!
Offline dranonymous

Junior Member




Hoping to become a Java Titan someday!


« Reply #43 - Posted 2004-11-09 17:28:20 »

Well, I finished the chapters covering the SCJP.  Smiley

So, now I need to review some of the material I'm not quite as knowledgeable about.

One of the guys who was studying with us, already took the exam and passed.  Smiley  He scored well and was pleased he took the time to review.

I figure I'll take it within the next 2 weeks or so.  Work is going to pay for it, so I've got nothing to lose.

- I discovered I know enough about threads to be dangerous.  Smiley  Not a mastery by any means, but good enough to answer any threading questions.

- I'm fairly week on Collections and Wrappers.  This is more rote memory than any higher knowledge.  Some review will fix this.

- I still hold that being certified won't make you a programmer.

- I'd encourage anyone who wants to get certified to grab the Osborne book by Sierra and Bates.  According to the friend who took the exam, the material is spot on for preparing you.

- While I'd already used inner classes for awhile, it was nice to get a much more indepth look at them for later.  I'm better able to spot areas for where they make sense and where they don't.

Cheers!

Dr. A>
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