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  Java Application Installation is a NIGHTMARE  (Read 6418 times)
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Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #30 - Posted 2004-08-20 18:03:59 »

Quote
WebStart doesn't suck, but it doesn't appear to be a non-trivial solution.  I've looked at it (briefly) and it certainly appeared that it would take some effort to package up an application for Webstart.

It took me under a week to convert my entire V-Script app from regular, standalone to being able to run from webstart (without any prior experiece with it). Admitedly its not a huge commercial app, buts its far from non-trivial.

Converting only really amounts to:
- Checking resource loading to work from the classpath
- Making everything packaged up in a jar
- Signing all the jars
- Making the actual webstart config file.

The first one is the only one that'll actually take you any amount of time, and the odds are that you'll be 90% there anyway, and that you'll only be changing a small amount of resource loading code. The rest are really quite trivial tasks.

Edit: should notes that thats a week of off-and-on work whenever I had the spare time, not solid hours. Also I see more commercial games are adding some kind of auto update so you get (gasp!) a desireable feature totally free. Even Doom3 has an auto-update built right into the game.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #31 - Posted 2004-08-20 18:07:38 »

Quote
we potentially have "signing" issues for producing the Jars

If signing is a problem for you, you should probably leave software development altogether! I would not be surprised if unsigned applications, at least for Windows, largely disappear over the next few years. You can also expect customers to start requiring that applications be signed.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #32 - Posted 2004-08-20 18:21:41 »

Quote

blahblahblahh - just stating that someone else doesn't know what they are talking about (calling them inexperienced) doesn't make for a strong argument for your position.


You presented an unsubstantiated (and IMHO foolish) opinion as a reference; in that situation I do feel it is relevant to point out that the authors of the opinion probably didn't know what they were talking about, especially as it is symptomatic of many intermediate C++ programmers who get "sour grapes" when they try to switch to java without re-learning the language, and get bitter when they can't just carry on doing everything the same way they used to do it in C++.

Other than that, I agree with you - merely slating a source isn't a substitute for a cohesive line of argument.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #33 - Posted 2004-08-20 18:27:06 »

Quote
[...]
Just to refresh my memory I fired up WebStart on a test machine and tried to run "Military Game App".  The first thing it does (after a small download) is ask the user if they want it integrated with their desktop.  Does a naive user even know what this means???  After running it, it's now "downloaded" on my PC... no option to uninstall it (and no information as to where it's located).

Now I know a lot of people say hard disk space isn't an issue, RAM isn't an issue... "it's cheap, modern machines have plenty, etc".  Well, I for one, do care about hard drive space, I do care about memory bloat.  And I consider it rude to "infect" someone's machine with your application without giving them a clear and easy way to uninstall and delete it.
[...]


Heh. Browsing on this page also "infected" you pc with some html, some gifs and jpgs. OMG! Shocked

Well, you have a cache... and if the application is used it puts some stuff there. Your browser does the same, but you won't complain about that, would you?

The default cache size of my browser was 50mb. Surprisingly jws default cache size is the same.

You can clear the whole cache whenever you want to and you can also uninstall single applications.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #34 - Posted 2004-08-20 18:46:07 »

Quote


Heh. Browsing on this page also "infected" you pc with some html, some gifs and jpgs. OMG! Shocked

Well, you have a cache... and if the application is used it puts some stuff there. Your browser does the same, but you won't complain about that, would you?

The default cache size of my browser was 50mb. Surprisingly jws default cache size is the same.

You can clear the whole cache whenever you want to and you can also uninstall single applications.

Did you read this post?
Quote

Does not work properly.  Tried this with JRE1.4.2 because I was having problems with a webstarted app.  When I told WebStart to remove it, it only removed it from its list.  It did no remove the app from the harddrive.  Then after I manually deleted it, I tried to run it again and WebStart complained about not being able to find files.  The next thing for me to try is to delete the WebStart cache(which I later discovered).  
However, it is not easy to remove a WebStart app properly.

ps.  I am an avid Java supporter, I just wish WebStart worked better.

It is not that untrivial.

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #35 - Posted 2004-08-20 19:03:18 »

>Did you read this post?

Yes. But I hadn't had any problems like that. At least as long as I unistalled apps in the usual way. I managed to screw the cache once... but I deleted stuff in that cache dir manually (something you shouldn't do).

However, clearing the whole cache from within jws fixed it.

So... I don't really see a problem here. If you can tell me how to reproduce that flaky behaviour, I'll listen Smiley

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Mark Thornton

Senior Member





« Reply #36 - Posted 2004-08-20 19:12:43 »

Quote
>So... I don't really see a problem here. If you can tell me how to reproduce that flaky behaviour, I'll listen Smiley

If you install a number of JDKs from 1.5 beta x, 1.4.x_y, 1.3.z series in arbitrary order (in particular not in release order), then I suspect the resulting state of WebStart is flaky. Fortunately this problem is only likely to affect developers (especially those that do maintenance), but it is still irritating.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #37 - Posted 2004-08-20 19:17:28 »

Quote

If you install a number of JDKs from 1.5 beta x, 1.4.x_y, 1.3.z series in arbitrary order (in particular not in release order), then I suspect the resulting state of WebStart is flaky. Fortunately this problem is only likely to affect developers (especially those that do maintenance), but it is still irritating.


If you install beta software, you'll most likely encounter several problems. And everyone knows that 1.5's jws is really b0rked Smiley

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Mithel

Senior Newbie




Global Contribution, for the greater good of all.


« Reply #38 - Posted 2004-08-20 20:37:46 »

Webstart question:

What if I buy this really cool game from ABC Company and it's deployed via webstart.  Now three years later I've bought a new PC and ABC Company has gone out of business.  How do I play my favorite game on my new PC?

Sales question:

Does Webstart have features to control who has access?  Or can it be easily cracked and then everyone in the world can download my application for free?
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #39 - Posted 2004-08-20 21:26:47 »

Quote
Webstart question:

What if I buy this really cool game from ABC Company and it's deployed via webstart.  Now three years later I've bought a new PC and ABC Company has gone out of business.  How do I play my favorite game on my new PC?

Sales question:

Does Webstart have features to control who has access?  Or can it be easily cracked and then everyone in the world can download my application for free?


Now that's some good questions.

#1 Right now you are pretty much out of luck. Well, jws isn't perfect and "make permanent" (moving out of cache) and/or an export function are still on my wish list.

#2 No. But something like that doesn't belong there anyways. In general applications can be cracked pretty easy. And it doesn't even make a big difference if it's native or Java. To tell the truth - cracking a simple copy protection scheme is actually less work with native stuff.

The advantage you have here with webstart is that you are allowed to connect to the server you came from (no signing needed). So if your application requires being online anyways, you can make it pretty secure and pretty annoying to crack (distribution gets also more difficult for the crackers).

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #40 - Posted 2004-08-21 03:20:13 »

Quote
Any install that requires an extra step by the customer is one more step that can cause that customer to give up and not run / play that application / game.  Installers such as Install4j can make this a minor issue. (So why doesn't Sun distribute an installer with Java instead of leaving developers to have to search out an install solution?)


Sun's brilliant marketing at work again.  THEY HAVE AN INSTALLER..

It was done as a reference implementation of  JSR-38...

http://www.openinstallation.org/

JIFI - it may need work still... but it's a start.  Very much like Install Anywhere actually.


Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #41 - Posted 2004-08-21 04:15:15 »

.jax Huh

edit:
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jax.html

JAX
A Jar file with a *.jax instead of *.jar extension. It contains a special entry in the manifest to tell which class file in the jar is the main one. A JAX file can be directly executed, just like a *.exe file with the appropriate associations. In JDK 1.2 you can execute jar files directly.

Uhm... we do have that now with usual jar files, too. And ".jax" isn't asociated with anything on my machine.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline whome

Junior Member




Carte Noir Java


« Reply #42 - Posted 2004-08-21 09:56:01 »

About installint different JDKs in random order, and then default one is not the newest one. Very annoying for developers machine but easy to fix in Win machine, once you know what to do  Wink

Ive fixed reference problems this way:
* Run Regedit
* Go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SOFTWARE/JavaSoft
* Edit CurrentVersion value in each folder to point what should be used as a default

"Java Plug-in" and "Java update" don't have that value, but "Java Development Kit", "Java Runtime Environment", "Java Web Start" folders have.

Then c:/Win/system32/java.exe and javaw.exe may be overwritten with the appropriate versions.
* Copy exes from c:/program files/Java/j2re...../bin folder

Not elegant, but works.

This same regkey contains "Prefs" folder where applications using PreferencesAPI may store values. Another one is in CURRENT_USER tree.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #43 - Posted 2004-08-21 18:04:48 »

Im have Vampire the Maskerade installed on my hard-disk and it makes use a jvm. The files are in the game root dir:

classes.zip - 8543 kb
javai.dll - 407 Kb

Can bundle a jvm this way, or do we need to obtain permission from Sun first ?

In the case of a java game the only executable needed would be a native win32 program to start the vm and execute the right class.

The advantages of this method is that, in principle, the player only has to unzip the game and run the start executable. No register messing and no installer needed.

In principle the player could also edit an .ini file or run a setup program to point to an external jvm dir. Most players can do this kind of stuff very easly.

Yeah and Andrew thanks for some more free java gaming articles.
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member




Who, me?


« Reply #44 - Posted 2004-08-21 21:59:21 »

Quote
Can bundle a jvm this way, or do we need to obtain permission from Sun first ?


In principle, you need an embedded VM licence to do something like that.  In reality, Sun have bigger concerns than punishing a few hobbyist game developers who are just trying to make a few quid.  Keep it quiet, and Sun will likely turn a blind eye.

Naturally, no one here would openly condone something like that. Wink

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #45 - Posted 2004-08-22 14:20:39 »

What if we used another jvm, independent of sun jvm ? Like kaffe for instance or the jvm from ibm. Could we still pack it with the game without having problems with sun license ?
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #46 - Posted 2004-08-22 15:28:34 »

I know this sounds a radical idea, but...why don't you just ask Sun?

Or, even more radical, just include a full JRE (which has virtually no restrictions), get all the advantages of java, and not have to worry about the problem that sooner or later you'll find there's a bug in the version of java you distributed and now you have a massive great expensive pain trying to upgrade all your users.

IMHO if you're going to use a language, you ought to use it the way it's meant to be used, because unless you have *really* pressing reasons otherwise (which you don't seem to have) then it's just creating additional work for yourself in the long run.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline tom
« Reply #47 - Posted 2004-08-22 19:09:13 »

Quote
What if we used another jvm, independent of sun jvm ? Like kaffe for instance or the jvm from ibm. Could we still pack it with the game without having problems with sun license ?

All jvms will have a license, and it's unlikely that they are less stric than suns.

Quote
Or, even more radical, just include a full JRE (which has virtually no restrictions),  get all the advantages of java, and not have to worry about the problem that sooner or later you'll find there's a bug in the version of java you distributed and now you have a massive great expensive pain trying to upgrade all your users.

Wich also includes 10 MB of crap I don't use. And just because people download gfx drivers and directx does not mean it's ok that my game is 10MB larger than it needs to be.

Why should a stripped runtime have any more bugs than the full runtime?

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #48 - Posted 2004-08-22 20:01:35 »

Quote

All jvms will have a license, and it's unlikely that they are less stric than suns.


What about the open source ones?

Quote

Wich also includes 10 MB of crap I don't use.


I for one am particularly pleased at how small java games are (considerably smaller than most C++ counterparts), and to a certain extent get annoyed that some people "just don't get it": java games are smaller, fact, and unless you are in a pretty special position (for instance, perhaps, the MCO game from Agency9), or especially arrogant, and genuinely know that your game will be the FIRST java game that significantly many of your players have ever played, or you have some particularly strong need to force the latest-and-greatest JRE version upon users (rare, but it doesn happen), then the size of the JRE is *entirely irrelevant to everything*.

Even when it is the first game they've played, or requires the latest features (e.g. 1.5.x), it's far from guaranteed that the negative impact on your success is going to be greater than the positive impact from the fact that most people had a smaller download.

Shrug. It's part of what java is (for the time being anyway), and whilst it's ground that has been covered many times before on this forum, it's something that undeniably becomes less of an issue every month (due to the increasing penetration of the JVM's).

Whilst not claiming "it's not an issue" (because I wish there were more choice here) - and eagerly awaiting the elusive carrot Chris dangled recently that suggests an alternative distribution path is about to be created, giving developers more choice - I'm getting a little tired of those who bring this up as a negative issue more on principle than because it's actually caused them problems in the field. When someone does that, they are basically saying that they don't want java-the-platform: you don't pick a technology just by looking at it's benefits, you pick it based upon all it's features both good and bad. A large common standard runtime happens to be a fundamental feature of java-the-platform and the source of some of java's great benefits.

NB: not that I'm accusing anyone in particular of bringing it up "on principle", I'm just trying to make a general point.

Quote

Why should a stripped runtime have any more bugs than the full runtime?


I didn't say it would; but a normal runtime has an established upgrade procedure that is extensively tested by hundreds of thousands of people. Upgrading a proprietary runtime requires you to do that work yourself, and you can bet Sun isn't going to give you any help (unless you pay them, of course).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline tom
« Reply #49 - Posted 2004-08-22 23:48:27 »

Quote
What about the open source ones?

If they can match suns in quality and performance, then it would be a great option.

Quote
I for one am particularly pleased at how small java games are (considerably smaller than most C++ counterparts), and to a certain extent get annoyed that some people "just don't get it": java games are smaller, fact, and unless you are in a pretty special position (for instance, perhaps, the MCO game from Agency9), or especially arrogant, and genuinely know that your game will be the FIRST java game that significantly many of your players have ever played, or you have some particularly strong need to force the latest-and-greatest JRE version upon users (rare, but it doesn happen), then the size of the JRE is *entirely irrelevant to everything*.

Why are java games smaller? I don't see the logic in this statement. Can you give an explanation.

What if the user don't got a jre, or a to old jre? What if the user don't even know if he got java installed? Force him to install java or have two versions of the game. In any case it makes it more difficult and confusing for the user.

Quote
Even when it is the first game they've played, or requires the latest features (e.g. 1.5.x), it's far from guaranteed that the negative impact on your success is going to be greater than the positive impact from the fact that most people had a smaller download.

I think it would. But neither of us have any proof.

Quote
I'm getting a little tired of those who bring this up as a negative issue more on principle than because it's actually caused them problems in the field. When someone does that, they are basically saying that they don't want java-the-platform: you don't pick a technology just by looking at it's benefits, you pick it based upon all it's features both good and bad. A large common standard runtime happens to be a fundamental feature of java-the-platform and the source of some of java's great benefits.

A lot of people think it's a problem. Probably THE greatest problem with making java games at the moment. I'm getting tired of those of put down anyone who bring this problem up.

But your right, I don't wan't java-the-platform. I wan't to ship the vm with my game, with as little bagage as possible.

Quote
Quote:

Why should a stripped runtime have any more bugs than the full runtime?       


I didn't say it would; but a normal runtime has an established upgrade procedure that is extensively tested by hundreds of thousands of people. Upgrading a proprietary runtime requires you to do that work yourself, and you can bet Sun isn't going to give you any help (unless you pay them, of course).

I don't want to upgrade the runtime. The game would be tested with the one runtime. Once the game is shipped there would be no changes.

Offline Mithel

Senior Newbie




Global Contribution, for the greater good of all.


« Reply #50 - Posted 2004-08-23 12:38:15 »

There are actually several different scenarios as there are different types of games and different desired distribution approaches.

Java games will typically be smaller as long as you are not including the size of the JRE.  A game that is heavily graphics oriented will be mostly graphics not code (this probably covers 90% of all games). In fact the size of the graphics will dominate the size of the code.  Thus code size savings of Java become irrelevant. (Example Pernica - 500K code, 4+ Megs Graphics)

If distribution is via CD then there is very little issue, the full JRE can be included on the CD and all we are doing is wasting disk space on the customer's hard drive. (I think I'm in the minority though in the fact that I do not like to waste space on the customer's hard drive when it's not necessary).

If however we wish to distribute electronically then we have an issue with how to deliver the JRE.  For some Webstart might be a great solution.  As a customer I'd never buy a game that I didn't actually get and could reliably load on a new PC (see several posts up), thus WebStart is not an option I'll consider.

So, ruling out webstart we are left with basically praying the customer has a properly installed JRE that is compatible with our game.

If we use something like Install4j to bundle the JVM into our game then we have potential legal issues (can our website meet the criteria to prevent downloading in a banned country?) and the download size becomes significantly large.

Yes, distribution of a java game is still my biggest concern with Java game development.  Is the solution to only distribute via CD? (that certainly raises the cost of production!)
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #51 - Posted 2004-08-23 13:56:34 »

Quote
If distribution is via CD then there is very little issue, the full JRE can be included on the CD and all we are doing is wasting disk space on the customer's hard drive. (I think I'm in the minority though in the fact that I do not like to waste space on the customer's hard drive when it's not necessary).


Say the customer typically has like 30Gb of HD space and the JRE is 15Mb. You'll be wasting 0.05% of their harddisk space. Worrying about this seems like a total waste of energy to me as your customers totally won't care about such a little added installation size.

Offline Raghar

Junior Member




Ue ni taete 'ru hitomi ni kono mi wa dou utsuru


« Reply #52 - Posted 2004-08-23 19:50:30 »

Quote
Java games will typically be smaller as long as you are not including the size of the JRE.  A game that is heavily graphics oriented will be mostly graphics not code (this probably covers 90% of all games). In fact the size of the graphics will dominate the size of the code.  Thus code size savings of Java become irrelevant. (Example Pernica - 500K code, 4+ Megs Graphics)

example: sonic DX
60 MB exe
Java games are using png and jpg by default, other games might use RAW.

So that comparisson wasn't exactly on the target.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #53 - Posted 2004-08-24 21:00:47 »

Quote
As a customer I'd never buy a game that I didn't actually get and could reliably load on a new PC (see several posts up), thus WebStart is not an option I'll consider.


This is a very good point.  Perhaps Web start needs a way of saving off an application that is in the WebStart cache so that it can easily be reloaded into the cache.  "Archive Application" anyone?

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #54 - Posted 2004-08-24 22:31:23 »

It has actually come up quite often as a requested feature. It's also been discussed on these forums at least once, and what to do about purchasing (basically: use webstart as the initial delivery mechanism, and you can use any mechansim you want for delivering the full-price version, webstart or not).

It would be nice if people could export, and there's no good reason not to have the option (as we keep shouting at Sun...) but it's no big deal...

FFS!!! If you can't work out how to deliver a game over a transient link like that to your customers *and allow them to re-download it if they lose the original copy* then you probably shouldn't be selling software in the first place! Seriously, this is basic online software delivery, and it's the same issue irrespective of webstart: Most of us reformat our computers frequently; I expect to be able to re-download anything I purchased online, which is fair enough. Go look at shareware games, anything since oh 1995 will do. You will find plenty of different solutions to this "problem"...

PS: limiting to only post-1995 is being generous: I was buying online software that happily got around that problem *years* before that...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline tom
« Reply #55 - Posted 2004-08-25 00:24:37 »

Quote
FFS!!! If you can't work out how to deliver a game over a transient link like that to your customers *and allow them to re-download it if they lose the original copy* then you probably shouldn't be selling software in the first place! Seriously, this is basic online software delivery, and it's the same issue irrespective of webstart: Most of us reformat our computers frequently; I expect to be able to re-download anything I purchased online, which is fair enough. Go look at shareware games, anything since oh 1995 will do. You will find plenty of different solutions to this "problem"...


I think most shareware games since 1995 has been distributed as a single file, a executable or a zip. This is great since even if the original company got bankcrupt and you can't download it fromt it's site, you can still have it as a backup, on a game mag cd or get it from a third party site like download.com. With webstart you can only get it from the original host, wich can disapear at any moment. Or were you thinking of some other solution?

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #56 - Posted 2004-08-25 00:27:01 »

The problem is that you might not be able to download the code again if the company goes under etc.

E.g.  I bought Roboforge, but after upgrading PCs I can't play it because when I downloaded the new version I find that it uses a new method to register and so I'm screwed.  I lost the original download.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #57 - Posted 2004-08-25 10:03:30 »

Quote
The problem is that you might not be able to download the code again if the company goes under etc.


Fair enough, but when the company goes under you usually get other problems too, so that I wonder how much of an issue this is in the long run. e.g. I have some games with fatal bugs that I *know* have been fixed but the company went bust before I could download the patches (and this wasn't a fly-by-night ... this was 3DO!). My only option was warez sites - download full copies of the games I'd already bought - but sadly there aren't enough warez sites these days, and those that do exist have to be leaner and meaner than they used to be. Sigh. Too many self-righteous pricks with too many CD-based copy protection schemes making life hell for those of us who would like to play the games we've paid for, whilst knowing full well that the vast majority of piracy is done on mass printing presses in Asia. I wouldn't be able to play mainstream computer games any more if it weren't for all the kind people producing NO-CD cracks (how many CD's/DVD's can you fit in a small laptop bag without cracking them?)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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